Socialism is the best ideology

'The only alternative to socialism is barbarism' Karl Marx

Socialism is the fairest and most equal political ideology where wealth is evenly distributed through all levels of society and the means of production is cooperatively organised and run by the working class. Trade and manufacture is based on necessity and everyone is designated a job based on their abilities and capabilities. All industry is owned by the 'State' and constitutes a nationalised publicly owned body which encompasses everything from high tech mechanised industry to service and goods and food outlets. In this scenario private commerce and ownership as well as free enterprise and entrepreneurialism will be abolished. The socialist state system will based on equality there will be no competition and no winners or losers and no class divisions.

This socialist society will eventually transition to full communism which in its purest form has never properly existed. I consider many of the derivatives of communism which have existed in the past such as 'Stalinism' to be deliberate subversions of the ideology to discredit it which has led to the simple minded accusation that 'communism doesn't work'. Communism has been corrupted by human hierarchical behaviour whereas capitalism accommodates this and is inherently corrupt because it is based on competition.

Capitalism promotes greed which in turns leads to poverty and inequality the only people who defend capitalism are those who know how to make money and these people always go on about 'how hard they've worked' when in reality they've had the breaks given to them somewhere along the line and begrudge others who haven't been as fortunate as them.

A true meritocracy would be better, you get from the system what you put into it.

reply to post by fadedface


Okay. I'll attempt to be fair.

Can you please show me a country where socialism has successfully been implemented?

I understand that as an ideology, in a classroom setting, this might be a fair system. I'm simply looking at real world applications of this ideology.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by fadedface

 

Okay. I'll attempt to be fair.

Can you please show me a country where socialism has successfully been implemented?

Socialism or strong socialist policies worked successfully in the post war British Labour government led by Clement Attlee which lifted thousands of British people out of poverty and hardship through the creation of the National Health Service.

I've seen a retrospective documentary about the Soviet Union which was broadcast by the BBC which interviewed people from former East Germany who stated they preferred life under a communist system than the capitalist one they now have.

Originally posted by fadedface
'This socialist society will eventually transition to full communism which in its purest form has never properly existed.

With respect, I consider that evidence that socialism and communism don't work very well. They cannot exist in a pure form because people want what they want. Always, always, always an elite class rises that allows themselves all the luxuries, debauchery and parochialism that Marxists hoped to avoid. What socialism and communism do is rob us of extremes in favor of mediocrity.

reply to post by fadedface


While in theory, this would be great. But with all the experiments that have been attempted too many variables (humans) keep screwing up the results. And they will always continue to scew the results.

I would suggest reading Animal Farm. Not a bad read and it puts it pretty succinctly.

Socialism is just like fairy tales....

It all sounds great and everyone lives happily ever after.


In practice.... Failure


Why you ask - life is not a fairy tale. People are always corrupt and the corrupt always aspire to be at the top and become your "above the law" caste.

Socialism means everyone is equally screwed except the privileged government / party class.

Originally posted by fadedface

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by fadedface

 

Okay. I'll attempt to be fair.

Can you please show me a country where socialism has successfully been implemented?

Socialism or strong socialist policies worked successfully in the post war British Labour government led by Clement Attlee which lifted thousands of British people out of poverty and hardship through the creation of the National Health Service.

I've seen a retrospective documentary about the Soviet Union which was broadcast by the BBC which interviewed people from former East Germany who stated they preferred life under a communist system than the capitalist one they now have.

So socialism worked in a transitional aspect.

Do you think it would be just as applicable in a permanent setting?

You have to understand, your examples were; post-war Britain and the Soviet Union where there was also a transition from a brutal Czar ruler.

Originally posted by infolurker
Socialism is just like fairy tales....

It all sounds great and everyone lives happily ever after.


In practice.... Failure


Why you ask - life is not a fairy tale. People are always corrupt and the corrupt always aspire to be at the top and become your "above the law" caste.

Socialism means everyone is equally screwed except the privileged government / party class.

Human beings have failed socialism and capitalism not the other way round.

Capitalism factors in human greed and corruption which is why it is the prevalent political ideology in the world today.

reply to post by fadedface


I actually visited East Germany during the eighties while in the military. It was pretty much a dreary and depressing place from my obsevation. Since we were basically a approved "tour" group, we were also followed and escorted everywhere. The beer was still good though.

I've been back a few times since the wall came down and it seems to be a whole different world. A whole lot nicer.

I also remember that there were certain West Germans who did not like the idea of the wall coming down. They were fearful that the re-integration would destroy their economy rebuilding the East. Sometimes it did seem like a close call, but they pulled through.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by fadedface

 

While in theory, this would be great. But with all the experiments that have been attempted too many variables (humans) keep screwing up the results. And they will always continue to scew the results.

I would suggest reading Animal Farm. Not a bad read and it puts it pretty succinctly.

Animal farm was a critique of 'Stalinism' and the hierarchical subversion of the communist ideal which degenerated into 'all men are equal but some more equal than others' which is not a true reflection of full communism as Marx conceived it.

George Orwell was also a socialist.

"the other crucial dimension to Orwell's socialism was his recognition that the Soviet Union was not socialist. Unlike many on the left, instead of abandoning socialism once he discovered the full horror of Stalinist rule in the Soviet Union, Orwell abandoned the Soviet Union and instead remained a socialist—indeed he became more committed to the socialist cause than ever"

The full communism of Marxism and Leninism was never satisfactorily achieved in the USSR (which would have seen currency become obsolete) and 'Stalinism' was a brutal derivative of the communist ideal but I would think there is more inequality in Russia today than during the cold war.

Pure communism has never been fully realised and if you know about communist theory you will be aware that none of the communist states have ever progressed beyond the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' stage to full communism.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by fadedface

 

Okay. I'll attempt to be fair.

Can you please show me a country where socialism has successfully been implemented?

It is very hard to do that, for the very simple reason that every time it has been attempted, in it's true form, it has been met with powerful opposition. It has never been given a chance to succeed, therefore it has not succeeded.

And so on and so forth.

Those who have the most to lose, also have, by that very fact, the most resources to throw against it, and that, historically, is what has happened. So while there is no example of true socialism, there are plenty of examples of socialist appeasement, as well as suppression, that undermine the natural leadership of such populist movements, that as another poster points out, would, in effect, lead to a more meritocratic structure, given the opportunity, have, in fact, served only to nullify leadership of the people, by the people, while maintaining the status quo, and the abiding elitist structures of governance. Or adversely, have backed attempts at socialism into a corner facilitating a defensive need for military dictatorships, and or, totalitarianism.

There has never been a socialist government, certainly not an enduring one, it is yet to be tried and tested, so your request, in short, is unfair. Since the uprisings in the first half of the twentieth century every effort has been made to prevent such a happening, right down to the grass roots, where the very people who would benefit fear such a form of government...that in itself prevents it from ever happening.

"The abolition of the rule of capital, the realization of a socialist social order – this, and nothing less, is the historical theme of the present revolution. It is a formidable undertaking, and one that will not be accomplished in the blink of an eye just by the issuing of a few decrees from above. Only through the conscious action of the working masses in city and country can it be brought to life, only through the people's highest intellectual maturity and inexhaustible idealism can it be brought safely through all storms and find its way to port."

"Without general elections, without unrestricted freedom of press and assembly, without a free struggle of opinion, life dies out in every public institution, becomes a mere semblance of life, in which only the bureaucracy remains as the active element". - Rosa Luxemburg

Sound familiar?

The problem with socialism is that people are NOT equal. I am not equal to the doctor who performs brain surgery. Nor am I equal to the booger eating kid down the street.

Do you honestly believe that Mr. Marx saw himself as equal to you? No, he saw you as a weak minded individual who must be kenneled by the false sense of equality with those who are not only better than you but those who are worse.

No, little Johnny, you can not have that A you earned on that test because little Timmy only got a D and that would make him feel bad. Socialism sinks everyone,except the ruling class, to the lowest common denominator.

People have imaginations and innovative ideas which become stymied in a socialist society. Why would anyone want to produce for a society that does not recognize extraordinary contributions.

And as far as caste systems there is always someone in charge, then they appoint others to be in charge...and so on and so forth. Socialism capitalizes on greed as well, just in different ways.

Originally posted by fadedface
Human beings have failed socialism and capitalism not the other way round.

Capitalism factors in human greed and corruption which is why it is the prevalent political ideology in the world today.

So, as a scientific experiment, Capitalism is successful because capitalists factor in the human variable while socialist do not.

Speaking of Orwell.

Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.

This is the route that socialism has always diverted too.

reply to post by oonkala


Capitalism condemns those who do not have the competitive edge to survive in the social darwinistic order it imposes on society. Capitalism inherently favours privilege and entrenches class divisions which creates poverty and inequality.

So you can keep your social darwinistic capitalist rhetoric.

And I do believe equality exists in the context of a communist system which propagates a classless society in which decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made in the best interests of the whole of society, a society 'of, by, and for the working class', rather than one in which a rich upper class controls the wealth and everyone else works for the rich on a wage basis.

And you should do some reading about Lenin before you go assuming anything about his character because he was reported to be a modest and unassuming man.

reply to post by fadedface


I commend you for your beliefs and hopes that one day we will all be equal.

I guess I am just a cynic because I don't see that day coming any time soon. Maybe with genetic manipulation?

But that opens a whole new can of worms.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
This is the route that socialism has always diverted too.

Because the consumer capitalist dream is such a wonderful ideology isn't it? You are what you own aren't you? Shame about the people not able or capable of playing the capitalist game or are they just the unlucky ones?


"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

John Maynard Keynes


"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate"

Bertrand Russell


"Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force."

George Bernard Shaw

"Capitalism justified itself and was adopted as an economic principle on the express ground that it provides selfish motives for doing good, and that human beings will do nothing except for selfish motives."

George Bernard Shaw

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Regardless of the end result, someone always loses in a transition.

The wealthy would lose in a transition towards socialism, thus the opposition.

The only way I could imagine socialism working, would be after a complete collapse.

Something along the lines of a Cloward-Piven scenario taking place in America now.

Originally posted by beezzerThe wealthy would lose in a transition towards socialism, thus the opposition.

Which is of course the sole reason for the anti left propaganda and why socialism is frowned upon and why communism has been supposedly discredited.

The USSR eventually resembled 'State Capitalism' more than a true communist society based on the Marxist ideals of full communism which where deliberately diluted or subverted in order to discredit communism as a failed ideology so the wealthy bourgeois could justify capitalism as the only ideology which works in the name of their own self interest.