ILLEGITIMATE PASTORS non-accreditation,

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by tony9802

 

Theres your problem. Youve stated the "American Educational sytem". What about all the thousands of Pastors, Reverends, Deacons and Preachers from around the rest of the world? You lumped them all together as though it involves only your 1 idea of one church in one spot...irregardless of you knowing the particulat pastoral requirements of any of them. There are lots. A ton.

Again, by definiton...a "pastor" does not need certification. Some do for some churches of course, but to assume its necessary for all the congregations of all the different churchs, denominations...is incorrect.

To state as you did that my wife (a lay pastor) is illegitimate as one...is insulting to all others.

Ok, maybe you have a point, but if I choose a Pastor, it's like choosing my doctor. Who is this person? And what are their credits. I'm just saying that a Pastor should be well read... and that he/should be able to prove that informedness. Whether it be damsel or mate. I love lady pastors generally though, they are so much more insightful, from a spiritual perspective.

Originally posted by Markafeller
reply to post by tony9802

 

This subject opens a can of worms. Accreditation is proof that the contents of a subject is transferable to another school that teaches the same subject. That may be rejected teaching elsewhere. It is not proof of a good education. It cost the school money for this and in the case of a christian school the award is useless out side of yours and the other school. You find some traditions, false teachings, and so called important practices should be rejected on the bases of clear scripture over time anyway. I went 6 years part time to a bible school. A see you need a deeper commitment, narrow down of a final objection and a bear trap close. Also a Jesus kicker in the side. :-)

EXCELLENT, Thank you so much for the information.. Right the whole issue of transferring "worthy and eligible credits.." is important. Much work to do in this area, and much criticism to commit also, towards these educational institutions. I say we flatten it all out, and make Theology responsible for it's lack of 4 year accredited university orientation. It seems as though these biblical schools do not want to be held accountable on university level.. you tell me?

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

I've only seen one, Todd Bentley. So that would be an extreme exception trying to be pushed off as the rule,..

which is a huge fallacy.

My sister used to date this Cuban-American guy who was totally thuggish, and talked gangster and did not have a lot of learning under his belt- this guy, from the looks of it, had bad grades in High School, and just did not seem like a very good, decent sort of person.. anyhow I found out later that he had become a pastor (I don't know if he does his pastoring in English or Spanish..) but I thought it was so bizarre that someone like him with his background and group of Cuban friends and entourage, like really raunchy totally impolite people that I actually met, would become a pastor of all things! It's funny because like I've been stating this whole issue of accreditation is in many ways meaningful.. Someone like him goes to a night school or adult school for a few months, and then goes to a 2 year college to learn about the Bible, and then suddenly he becomes a pastor!

I am happy for him and his vocation and if he is teaching Cubans and ex-gangsters in Miami Florida a few things about the Gospel I think it's wonderful, but it also tells me an awful lot about the American educational system, in terms of bible and scripture..

This guy simply was not a good person, and I personally feel like a serious turn around towards God is so out of the question that I would not trust his pastoring, motives or intentions.. I don't know don't mean to be rude or impolite, but in his case, it's just too much.. His name was Ricardo Jimenez in case you're in hot flashy Miami!

edit on 17-5-2013 by tony9802 because: (no reason given)

I would never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to transform a man into an effective pastor.

Look at Paul, he persecuted Christians before being called to pastor them.

So now we want government to regulate pastors? To be accredited a school has to pay lots of fees and pass standards of what should be taught, etc. How can you put standards on being a pastor? It's a theological degree. We can't govern and stanardize that or we violate the right to freedom of religion. If its important that your pastor has been trained to a standardized level (in strict Catholic principles as an example) you could ask where they studied. Otherwise please no more government interference.

"I would never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to transform a man into an effective pastor." "Look at Paul, he persecuted Christians before being called to pastor them."



You're not understanding my statement.. He's like a pimp man, and he actually opposes celibacy and monasticism which I think is totally ridiculous since the Gospel teaches it as preference.. He's married and has 2 kids, and he believes that all Christians need to be in bed with someone..You call that someone transformed from a man into a pastor?

If you think for a minute that his teachings could possibly be inspired by the Holy Spirit, you are sadly mistaken.. but this is my whole point, is that these out of nowhere Pastors, sit there and teach things that have nothing to do with Scripture. He also believes that his wife should perform fellatio-- You should just take a look at what some pastors actually preach.. I think this is all totally hilarious. Having a governing body that determines who is eligible to Pastor is important. It's not just about how well you talk in front of people, and it's not about how "charasmatic" you may or may not be. You have to be able to agree with what is said in Scripture.. and to me that is this guys problem. He does not agree with the Word.

He thinks abstinence and celibacy are wrong. Would you send your kids to this kind of person?
American pastors normally though, marry wives, and do not marry God. (Unlike those who follow more traditional doctrines.) I can see that most people responding to this thread, do not care for a properly and formally educated spiritual leader.. I think that is wrong, but at least it helps me see that most of you are accustomed to these untrained individuals as leaders and counselors. I believe they need proper training otherwise they have insufficient knowledge to share with others. But most of you here posting, are satisfied with UN-ACCREDITATION. I guess your doctors and your dentists are UN-ACCREDITED as well..(!) Or, is that different? I would search for pro- and not some mobile home taught self proclaimed, self appointed pastor, minister or reverend. Sorry if I sound aggressive but it seems like no one here on ATS cares a whole lot about appropriate Diplomas for this vocation!! Good grief. You also don't need a diploma to sell car insurance, right?

Originally posted by Dianec
So now we want government to regulate pastors? To be accredited a school has to pay lots of fees and pass standards of what should be taught, etc. How can you put standards on being a pastor? It's a theological degree. We can't govern and standardize that or we violate the right to freedom of religion. If its important that your pastor has been trained to a standardized level (in strict Catholic principles as an example) you could ask where they studied. Otherwise please no more government interference.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT, IS THAT IN AMERICA, YOU DO NOT HAVE STANDARDS OF WHAT SHOULD BE TAUGHT AND HOW. OF COURSE YOU REGULATE AND STANDARDIZE PASTORS. OTHERWISE THEY GET AWAY WITH TEACHING ANYTHING THEY WANT, IN ANY WAY THEY WISH- SOMETIMES EVEN FRAUDULENTLY. THEY CAN START THEIR OWN CHURCHES WITHOUT REGULATION OR GOVERNANCE BY ANY ENTITY: THAT TOO IS WRONG.

reply to post by tony9802



PASTORS NEED TO RECEIVE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO A BAR EXAM; IT WOULD HELP DETERMINE IF THEY ARE APPROPRIATELY ELIGIBLE TO BE PASTORS- THAT WOULD BE REAL SIMPLE. AND IF THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE WHILE THEY ARE TAKING THAT PASTOR "BAR EXAM," THEY CAN ATTEMPT TO DISCUSS ANY AND ALL ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST THEIR POSITION.

MOST PASTORS DO NOT TOSS AROUND IN THEIR MINDS VARIOUS PERSPECTIVES ON THINGS. THEY JUST DEFEND POSITIONS THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN EXPOSED TO. ADDITIONALLY, MOST AMERICAN PASTORS COULD CARE LESS FOR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES OF THESE TEXTS. THEY JUST READ IT ALL IN ENGLISH AS THOUGH SCRIPTURE WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN IN ENGLISH. ONCE AGAIN, I THINK THE STANDARDS THEY MEET ARE WANTING.

reply to post by tony9802

PASTORS NEED TO RECEIVE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO A BAR EXAM; IT WOULD HELP DETERMINE IF THEY ARE APPROPRIATELY ELIGIBLE TO BE PASTORS- THAT WOULD BE REAL SIMPLE. AND IF THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE WHILE THEY ARE TAKING THAT PASTOR "BAR EXAM," THEY CAN ATTEMPT TO DISCUSS ANY AND ALL ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST THEIR POSITION.

So I'm taking for granted that you have the appropriate interpretation of scripture that should be used in this exam? Do you honestly not see the issue with that due to the many ways things can be understood? You compared choosing a pastor to choosing a doctor... I fail to see the appropriate comparison there. While I have seen many preacher folk that seem to not have a clue as to what they have actually read and are trying to preach about the idea that there should be a standardized test is not applicable to this particular profession. There are so many things that can be taken different ways you would have to first say "ok, every verse in the bible means this and nothing else. Now lets take a test." How exactly are you truly going to say whoever it is setting the standards is correct?

note****constant cap lock does not make your post look important

Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by tony9802

 

PASTORS NEED TO RECEIVE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO A BAR EXAM; IT WOULD HELP DETERMINE IF THEY ARE APPROPRIATELY ELIGIBLE TO BE PASTORS- THAT WOULD BE REAL SIMPLE. AND IF THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE WHILE THEY ARE TAKING THAT PASTOR "BAR EXAM," THEY CAN ATTEMPT TO DISCUSS ANY AND ALL ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST THEIR POSITION.

So I'm taking for granted that you have the appropriate interpretation of scripture that should be used in this exam? Do you honestly not see the issue with that due to the many ways things can be understood? You compared choosing a pastor to choosing a doctor... I fail to see the appropriate comparison there. While I have seen many preacher folk that seem to not have a clue as to what they have actually read and are trying to preach about the idea that there should be a standardized test is not applicable to this particular profession. There are so many things that can be taken different ways you would have to first say "ok, every verse in the bible means this and nothing else. Now lets take a test." How exactly are you truly going to say whoever it is setting the standards is correct?

note****constant cap lock does not make your post look important

I can cap lock if I want to, and it's not for the sake of sounding important.. it's because I think some of you are foolish to not require pastoral accreditation. That there are many interpretations of Scripture.. sure, no problem just talk about those various interpretations a bit on the PASTOR BAR EXAM, give us some of your explanations and various positions on any given written chapter and verse-- The point is that these pastors be sufficiently well-read, so that they have understanding of those various positions thereby elucidating and reaffirming their personal position on any given subject matter and piece of writing. It's that doggone simple.

I agree with the OP, to an extant. Even Jesus says as such.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

The problem is that no one teaches all that He commanded. No one pays attention to His teachings. No one pays attention to His Father's written word.

There is no more Christianity. Paulianity, perhaps. But most (especially in US Protestantism) do not wish to walk as He walked. Most do not wish to keep God's commandments.

And the base reason is that for 1200+ years, one could not teach without being accredited by the earthly authority that is "the Church.". Look where that got us.

One day His word will be taught correctly again, but at that time it will be with a rod of iron.

For now, those who call themselves Christians need to put everything back into it's proper perspective:

www.teshuavami.com...


And now I will watch the reasoning (from Paulinism) on why I am wrong roll in.

reply to post by tony9802


Would it not be more beneficial and simpler for the body of the church/temple to simply talk to the individual and see if they have enough background to be put in a leadership position? That way instead of sitting in the high chair being spoon fed you actually can feed yourself? Standardized testing will simply lead to pushing of particular dogma's and interpretations in the long run. If you know religious texts for yourself then you would know if an individual knows them as well. It's foolish to make things more difficult than it needs to be imo.

If you were on said panel that read through the testing do you tell an individual that "yes, you are well read, but your wrong in what your reading and conveying" and deny them a pastor id? Like I pointed out who makes the decision of the correct answers?

Originally posted by Shimri
I agree with the OP, to an extant. Even Jesus says as such.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

The problem is that no one teaches all that He commanded. No one pays attention to His teachings. No one pays attention to His Father's written word.

There is no more Christianity. Paulianity, perhaps. But most (especially in US Protestantism) do not wish to walk as He walked. Most do not wish to keep God's commandments.

And the base reason is that for 1200+ years, one could not teach without being accredited by the earthly authority that is "the Church.". Look where that got us.

One day His word will be taught correctly again, but at that time it will be with a rod of iron.

For now, those who call themselves Christians need to put everything back into it's proper perspective:

www.teshuavami.com...


And now I will watch the reasoning (from Paulinism) on why I am wrong roll in.

edit on 18-5-2013 by Shimri because: (no reason given)

Paul's view of the subject [edit]

That people saw different disciples of Christ as representing different teachings was addressed by Paul himself, in the 1st letter to the Corinthians: (1 Cor 1:10–18)

“ I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas(Peter)"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel — not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power

reply to post by tony9802


I would be upset that some pastors don't have an accredited diploma if the Bible declared it was necessary, or if the Biblce stated apostles, pastors, prophets, or teachers in the Bible took accredited classes. Or if church leaders throughout history also went to an accredited Seminary. And I don't see an issue with fallatio or cunnilingus between married couples. They should enjoy themselves together any way they see fit as long as it doesn't violate any scriptures. You can't reference a place in scripture that name such acts between married folks.

Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by tony9802

 

Would it not be more beneficial and simpler for the body of the church/temple to simply talk to the individual and see if they have enough background to be put in a leadership position? That way instead of sitting in the high chair being spoon fed you actually can feed yourself? Standardized testing will simply lead to pushing of particular dogma's and interpretations in the long run. If you know religious texts for yourself then you would know if an individual knows them as well. It's foolish to make things more difficult than it needs to be imo.

If you were on said panel that read through the testing do you tell an individual that "yes, you are well read, but your wrong in what your reading and conveying" and deny them a pastor id? Like I pointed out who makes the decision of the correct answers?

First off, I don't know if you read on page 1 or 2, but there was a post there where it was stated, based on experience, that you can currently "buy and purchase," Pastor certification and recognition for a mere, very mere 35.00usd. Tell me if there isn't a problem there.

In response though, the way you state your questions, causes me to feel that you are assuming that there are no common final denominators or common final agreements by all of these various churches and non-demominational groups- so much so that they are entirely unable to agree on any points, concerning what is WRITTEN IN scripture. "The persons attempting to become Pastors, given how you have posed the question, are entirely UNABLE TO AGREE on anything that is WRITTEN IN scripture." If there is no agreement between all of these would-be pastors, should they even be taking that BAR EXAM in the first place?

Is there ever a moment where all of these would-be pastors can agree on anything that is WRITTEN IN Scripture?

What does Scripture say that creates so much confusion and misunderstanding?

If the levels of disagreement are so high that they merely create more conflict and confusion, then I would probably say that all of those would-be pastors, should not be seeking to pass the BAR EXAM, and should not be attempting to become pastors.

You have to agree on something about Scripture. Otherwise it's over. If they are unable to agree upon anything, then there simply is no Truth, (capital T).

reply to post by tony9802


so, you are jehovahs witness, huh......

So the op would probably really hate those ordained by the ULC

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by tony9802

 

so, you are jehovahs witness, huh......

No, I'm not.. what would give you that impression..

Originally posted by BLACKOWT
So the op would probably really hate those ordained by the ULC

I don't know what the ULC is.. and to be honest with you, I don't hate anybody. My problem is with these organizations or "churches," that in reality do not have personnel that are appropriately trained..

An Anthropologist is an Anthropologist due to accreditation.. I hope I'm making sense here,

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by BLACKOWT
So the op would probably really hate those ordained by the ULC

I don't know what the ULC is.. and to be honest with you, I don't hate anybody. My problem is with these organizations or "churches," that in reality do not have personnel that are appropriately trained..

An Anthropologist is an Anthropologist due to accreditation.. I hope I'm making sense here,

Universal Life Church and they utilize a method of ordaining their ministers via online form and they can be use any title they want.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

I would be upset that some pastors don't have an accredited diploma if the Bible declared it was necessary, or if the Biblce stated apostles, pastors, prophets, or teachers in the Bible took accredited classes. Or if church leaders throughout history also went to an accredited Seminary. And I don't see an issue with fallatio or cunnilingus between married couples. They should enjoy themselves together any way they see fit as long as it doesn't violate any scriptures. You can't reference a place in scripture that name such acts between married folks.

edit on 18-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

The characters in the bible, disciples, prophets and the apostles etc.. were apparently under the immediate influence of the Holy Spirit, and the literature of the Gospel had yet to be actually written, so no, those individuals would not be able to go to school, sign up and obtain a Diploma to teach the New Testament, since it had yet to be compiled and written.

In reference to "Church Leaders throughout history" you will have identify some of the persons you are referring to because I do not know if that's true or not, I would need some examples though..

In regards to sexual acts. I just don't think that a Pastor should be totally loose, sexually that is, and then go around telling others how to behave sexually. At some point, certain sexual acts can be considered "unnatural," and not pro-creative in nature. I could care less what couples do between each other, but at some point, we have to lose the hand-cuffs to be considered xtian.