Israeli Airforce To Target Russian s300 Systems Delivery

reply to post by princeofpeace

Israel has more nukes than China does i dont think China is blwiong anyone off the map.

Do you look anything up before just typing out things that kinda sound 'statistic like', or did you actually find someplace which shows numbers to indicate a World Power like China has a wee little collection compared to a nation the size of New Jersey...like Israel?

If they actually have more than the 80 or so which are attributed to them..where do they store them? Where were they made? Dimona has space...but it's no mass production facility to pump out the crowd pleasures.

Some stats quoted around here just scream 'where?? huh?? how?' so loudly, it has to have something noted. More nukes than China? lol....... Is there anything Israel doesn't lead the entire planet in...if it's a negative topic or fact?

reply to post by amkia


What of the war crimes of the radical islamist's against nearly every nation on this earth. Its not just a war against Isreal anymore. Radical Islamist TERRORIST'S if you will, have taken the word of ALLAH and the words in the Koran and have twisted thier interpretations to justify thier hatred of anyone who does not blindly accept their interpretations.They can do no good in the world, they are driven by a hatred which has been embedded in thier souls from the time of thier birth by parents and by thier close society. ALL they know is to kill all people who do not believe as they do. Its very sad and unfortunate that a great people (Majority of Islamist) have to be associated becasue of those( Radical Islamist) who believe in death and destruction as a way to live.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

From what I've gathered (Soviet era SAMs aren't my strongest area) there is more than one missile type available for all versions, and the performance varies. But the reports say IF they get them it's the P, but you may be right on the version.

The missile itself would be the 48n6e2... usually associated with the gargoyle. That thing can go after everything... from little incoming missiles at mach 9 to icbms, from uavs to any type of aircraft... I bet if I could fly that thing could come after me.

And the 48n6e2 is backwards compatible with the pmu-1 despite being more commonly associated with the pmu-2.

And you know me... I love all that russian tech

Originally posted by Jobeycool
The missles obviously could be used by Hezbollah to attack Israel.Or Assad may use them on Israel cities.

Surface to Air. Unless tel aviv goes airborne... I dont really see a way to attack a city with a sam.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by princeofpeace

 

Israel has more nukes than China does i dont think China is blwiong anyone off the map.

Do you look anything up before just typing out things that kinda sound 'statistic like', or did you actually find someplace which shows numbers to indicate a World Power like China has a wee little collection compared to a nation the size of New Jersey...like Israel?

If they actually have more than the 80 or so which are attributed to them..where do they store them? Where were they made? Dimona has space...but it's no mass production facility to pump out the crowd pleasures.

Some stats quoted around here just scream 'where?? huh?? how?' so loudly, it has to have something noted. More nukes than China? lol....... Is there anything Israel doesn't lead the entire planet in...if it's a negative topic or fact?

It is funny how people underestimate china part of it is the game they play most of there missiles are kept in storage unlike US and Russia. China has launch facilities set up and bring the missiles for launch and only keep a very small number ready to launch any time in the situation there in makes sense actually.So the best estimate we have on chinas capabilities comes from the Russians and reason i say that is they keepa very close eye on china. China has nearly 750 theater and tactical nuclear warheads in addition to more than 200 strategic missile warheads. Now isreal they have 80 and there non deployed which means there stored in a bunker until needed. So here ill make a quick chart for comparison.

Russia total inventory -- 8500
United States total inventory -- 7700
China -- 950
France -- 300
United Kingdom -- 225
Pakistan -- 90 to 110
India -- 80 to 100
Isreal -- 80
North Korea --

reply to post by dragonridr


Wait. Israel's numbers are undisclosed - there are no official reports, there are no real numbers not even through official channels - the numbers are ranged from 80 to 400+. No one really knows. Why? Because they're not part of any treaty, convention or act that forces them to reveal anything close to what they really have.

Even the numbers from the US, Russia or China are off but the margin is not huge - although Israel, for whichever reason is allowed to keep building up their arsenal completely unchecked and no one dares to question them. Well, apart from those we call the "bad guys" that is, but those we dont take seriously. But as soon as countries like North Korea test ONE nuclear bomb the world wants to go medieval on their asses... yet, Israel has carte blanche.

Now the thing is... Israel does not have the capability of delivery that China has. Plus Israel is the size of my backyard which complicates things - 21000km² - you can nuke the US, China or Russia or even North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Syria... most of these countries actually can withstand multiple nuclear strikes - Israel not so much. From China, well maybe 4 because the Chinese are sadists, from the US, 2 because they're tactical... from Russia, 1 because well... they really like that special trait that makes them Russian - the utter lack of subtlety - deep down inside a bunker somewhere theres some freak bigger brother of the Tsar with some freakish 300Mt - who knows - and like everything Russian is made to make sure nothing bigger than a toothpick is left standing after the first strike hits. Its actually the way Russia handles everything else... from Chechnya, to the Theater incident to the 5 day Georgia in 2008 - get in there blow everything up and be back in time for dinner.

So no, Israel has nothing on China, Russia or any other super power - the only thing holding Israel in its place is the US - without the US and its mighty umbrella there, there wouldnt be no Israel... despite what netanyahu said to the congress that he didnt need the US. It is because of the US that hes still alive and that his country still exists.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Wait. Israel's numbers are undisclosed - there are no official reports, there are no real numbers not even through official channels - the numbers are ranged from 80 to 400+. No one really knows. Why? Because they're not part of any treaty, convention or act that forces them to reveal anything close to what they really have.

Even the numbers from the US, Russia or China are off but the margin is not huge - although Israel, for whichever reason is allowed to keep building up their arsenal completely unchecked and no one dares to question them. Well, apart from those we call the "bad guys" that is, but those we dont take seriously. But as soon as countries like North Korea test ONE nuclear bomb the world wants to go medieval on their asses... yet, Israel has carte blanche.

Now the thing is... Israel does not have the capability of delivery that China has. Plus Israel is the size of my backyard which complicates things - 21000km² - you can nuke the US, China or Russia or even North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Syria... most of these countries actually can withstand multiple nuclear strikes - Israel not so much. From China, well maybe 4 because the Chinese are sadists, from the US, 2 because they're tactical... from Russia, 1 because well... they really like that special trait that makes them Russian - the utter lack of subtlety - deep down inside a bunker somewhere theres some freak bigger brother of the Tsar with some freakish 300Mt - who knows - and like everything Russian is made to make sure nothing bigger than a toothpick is left standing after the first strike hits. Its actually the way Russia handles everything else... from Chechnya, to the Theater incident to the 5 day Georgia in 2008 - get in there blow everything up and be back in time for dinner.

So no, Israel has nothing on China, Russia or any other super power - the only thing holding Israel in its place is the US - without the US and its mighty umbrella there, there wouldnt be no Israel... despite what netanyahu said to the congress that he didnt need the US. It is because of the US that hes still alive and that his country still exists.

edit on 19-5-2013 by FraternitasSaturni because: (no reason given)

Well your right as far as the esimates they are just that there are things wrong such as the start treaty actually counts delivery systems and not warheads so even though a bomber can hold up to 20 its only 1. So they estimate. As far as isreal there problem is they have signed no treaties so the estimates come from the amount of plotonium they might have. Currently they are not producing fissionable material in there reactors so the estimate is from what they could have made and what the United states has given them. 80 is going to be close id say not more then 200 they just dont have the material or the storage for that matter.Problem becomes they store there weopons in unasembled mode meaning they have to put them together to use them.And as to why isreal has these thank Richard Nixon he signed an agreement allowing it.

The info is not that hard to find LOL. Just look. 80? Israel has been manufacturing these things since the 60s and its more than just one or two a year.

Storage? These things arent huge. They are mounted on any number of the ballistic missiles they have. The nukes fit in the nose cone.

Are you confusing the hundreds of nukes Israel has to all being the same size as a Minuteman stored in a huge silo? No. They do have ICBM for sure but most are tactical nukes. Some are baseball sized neutron weapons as well.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by princeofpeace

 

Israel has more nukes than China does i dont think China is blwiong anyone off the map.

Do you look anything up before just typing out things that kinda sound 'statistic like', or did you actually find someplace which shows numbers to indicate a World Power like China has a wee little collection compared to a nation the size of New Jersey...like Israel?

If they actually have more than the 80 or so which are attributed to them..where do they store them? Where were they made? Dimona has space...but it's no mass production facility to pump out the crowd pleasures.

Some stats quoted around here just scream 'where?? huh?? how?' so loudly, it has to have something noted. More nukes than China? lol....... Is there anything Israel doesn't lead the entire planet in...if it's a negative topic or fact?

LOL I dont think Russia did anything in Afghanistan that had them back in time for dinner!!!

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Wait. Israel's numbers are undisclosed - there are no official reports, there are no real numbers not even through official channels - the numbers are ranged from 80 to 400+. No one really knows. Why? Because they're not part of any treaty, convention or act that forces them to reveal anything close to what they really have.

Even the numbers from the US, Russia or China are off but the margin is not huge - although Israel, for whichever reason is allowed to keep building up their arsenal completely unchecked and no one dares to question them. Well, apart from those we call the "bad guys" that is, but those we dont take seriously. But as soon as countries like North Korea test ONE nuclear bomb the world wants to go medieval on their asses... yet, Israel has carte blanche.

Now the thing is... Israel does not have the capability of delivery that China has. Plus Israel is the size of my backyard which complicates things - 21000km² - you can nuke the US, China or Russia or even North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Syria... most of these countries actually can withstand multiple nuclear strikes - Israel not so much. From China, well maybe 4 because the Chinese are sadists, from the US, 2 because they're tactical... from Russia, 1 because well... they really like that special trait that makes them Russian - the utter lack of subtlety - deep down inside a bunker somewhere theres some freak bigger brother of the Tsar with some freakish 300Mt - who knows - and like everything Russian is made to make sure nothing bigger than a toothpick is left standing after the first strike hits. Its actually the way Russia handles everything else... from Chechnya, to the Theater incident to the 5 day Georgia in 2008 - get in there blow everything up and be back in time for dinner.

So no, Israel has nothing on China, Russia or any other super power - the only thing holding Israel in its place is the US - without the US and its mighty umbrella there, there wouldnt be no Israel... despite what netanyahu said to the congress that he didnt need the US. It is because of the US that hes still alive and that his country still exists.

edit on 19-5-2013 by FraternitasSaturni because: (no reason given)

Well your right as far as the esimates they are just that there are things wrong such as the start treaty actually counts delivery systems and not warheads so even though a bomber can hold up to 20 its only 1. So they estimate. As far as isreal there problem is they have signed no treaties so the estimates come from the amount of plotonium they might have. Currently they are not producing fissionable material in there reactors so the estimate is from what they could have made and what the United states has given them. 80 is going to be close id say not more then 200 they just dont have the material or the storage for that matter.Problem becomes they store there weopons in unasembled mode meaning they have to put them together to use them.And as to why isreal has these thank Richard Nixon he signed an agreement allowing it.

reply to post by princeofpeace


Apparently you choose to ignore the fact that in afghanistan the ussr was against the mujahideen supported by the us, uk, china, pakistan, iran, saudi arabia, egypt, billions of dollars of sponsorship by the cia&friends to friendly people like osama bin laden... why? You think that the USSR alone wouldnt have crushed those horse riders using mausers if others, especially the US hadnt interefered? You have any doubts? Its called the "bear trap" not because of the afghans themselves, but because of their sponsors. The US didnt really have any trouble in afghanistan did they... Didnt you find that a bit odd? I mean... considering their past with the powerful russian war machine?

In 10 years of war with all that sponsorship the russians only 9000 were KIA. Against all that. In Iraq the US from 2003 to 2012 had 4500 (official) KIAs. Against ragtags with ak-47s and ieds. Can you imagine the body count if Iraq was sponsored by Russia, China, Iran, Pakistan etc? Our little coalition there would be a slaughterhouse. In afghanistan the "official mujahideen" alone lost over 100000... and over 1.5 million civilians died (of course the word "civilian" here is to be taken with a certain degree of... well... those who have any experience know what I'm talking about) not counting the millions of refugees to iran and other countries. Seriously. And then came Gorby and put an end to it because he thought "well... with unlimited funds theres no way we can win that crap". But we know Gorby... such a strong character and loved by his own fellow russians that his very own kgb had him arrested so an attempted coup d'etat could take place.

Or... maybe you've studied the Bear Trap from Rambo III.

But theres a problem... Putin's Russia is not Gorby's USSR. Gorby was the fall of the USSR. Today's Russia is growing again and if you see them putting their claws somewhere, you better take them seriously. Well maybe you don't, but your leaders sure do. Every one makes their little jokes and laughs but the truth is you dont see anyone messing around with Putin do you? Maybe there's a reason for that. Just in a span of what... 8 or 10 days he managed to stamp both netanyahu and kerry with a nice "return to sender" with a big "I really dont give a crap about what you think".

By the way... Georgia had the CIA touch also. Go see what happened. This is not the 80s anymore. The bear was hibernating and the alarm clock was set to 2008. Since then I dont know if you pay much attention but, they've been moving around many pieces, some on the table, others under it. But they're very active.

Or maybe you're one of those people that believe the cold war is over or that the KGB no longer exists.

reply to post by princeofpeace

The info is not that hard to find LOL. Just look. 80? Israel has been manufacturing these things since the 60s and its more than just one or two a year.

I would have thought the information wasn't that hard to find.

General History of Israeli Nuclear Program and Intentions. 1953 - Present

They've only been making them since the late 70's and are thought to have detonated their test in 1979 with South African assistance. Although, as that brief history shows, their history had many players helping to bring the nuclear genie out of that bottle, over many years. Ironically, it's one the US can actually say it was by far not the active supporter of the bunch for. (They are thought to have deployed a Ballistic land launch warhead in 1973, but no test means no nuke IMO. North Korea shows that even that can be gotten wrong the first time. lol....

Are you confusing the hundreds of nukes Israel has to all being the same size as a Minuteman stored in a huge silo? No. They do have ICBM for sure but most are tactical nukes. Some are baseball sized neutron weapons as well.

Ahem... Baseball sized neutron weapons? You'll have to show us that one. It's beyond any tech I'm aware of even Russia or the United States having developed. Oh I know they had nuclear hand grenades on the drawing boards for American weapons in the 60's....but they had a lot on drawing boards. Most stayed there too.

As it happens.... there are pretty solid numbers with Israel and far from the guess work of MSM.


(Source: Federation of American Scientists

Israel's nuclear arsenal is thought to lay in it's Jericho Ballistic Missiles and a variant believed to be fitted domestically to the Dolphin submarines they get from Germany. They have plans for over half a dozen total, by the looks of how things read.

60-80 Nuclear Warheads though? That sounds about right and fitting for them.

There are only a dozen or so critical targets or population centers in the entire region. Call it 20 to really just end the Middle East for a couple centuries.

That would be if Israel did what they've implied if facing a total war loss and fires on all enemies at once in a 'death blossom' as I've heard it called elsewhere. That would wipe most of the concentrated population from the Middle East. Just a dozen, would. I figure they made what they figured they would need and logically stopped the dangerous process of making more of them, right about there. We all draw our own conclusions from the available data though, eh?

Sorry u went thru the trouble but old info bro!!!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by princeofpeace

 

The info is not that hard to find LOL. Just look. 80? Israel has been manufacturing these things since the 60s and its more than just one or two a year.

I would have thought the information wasn't that hard to find.

General History of Israeli Nuclear Program and Intentions. 1953 - Present

They've only been making them since the late 70's and are thought to have detonated their test in 1979 with South African assistance. Although, as that brief history shows, their history had many players helping to bring the nuclear genie out of that bottle, over many years. Ironically, it's one the US can actually say it was by far not the active supporter of the bunch for. (They are thought to have deployed a Ballistic land launch warhead in 1973, but no test means no nuke IMO. North Korea shows that even that can be gotten wrong the first time. lol....

Are you confusing the hundreds of nukes Israel has to all being the same size as a Minuteman stored in a huge silo? No. They do have ICBM for sure but most are tactical nukes. Some are baseball sized neutron weapons as well.

Ahem... Baseball sized neutron weapons? You'll have to show us that one. It's beyond any tech I'm aware of even Russia or the United States having developed. Oh I know they had nuclear hand grenades on the drawing boards for American weapons in the 60's....but they had a lot on drawing boards. Most stayed there too.

As it happens.... there are pretty solid numbers with Israel and far from the guess work of MSM.

(Source: Federation of American Scientists

Israel's nuclear arsenal is thought to lay in it's Jericho Ballistic Missiles and a variant believed to be fitted domestically to the Dolphin submarines they get from Germany. They have plans for over half a dozen total, by the looks of how things read.

60-80 Nuclear Warheads though? That sounds about right and fitting for them.

There are only a dozen or so critical targets or population centers in the entire region. Call it 20 to really just end the Middle East for a couple centuries.

That would be if Israel did what they've implied if facing a total war loss and fires on all enemies at once in a 'death blossom' as I've heard it called elsewhere. That would wipe most of the concentrated population from the Middle East. Just a dozen, would. I figure they made what they figured they would need and logically stopped the dangerous process of making more of them, right about there. We all draw our own conclusions from the available data though, eh?

reply to post by princeofpeace

Actually, that mirrors roughly what modern estimates also place stockpiles at. It doesn't change much with that weapon type. Old ones get taken out of rotation by all major powers and call it some fancy disarmarment, but "old info" isn't terribly accurate.

Global Nuclear Weapons Inventories in 2013

That also shows 80 known and viable with 200 possible if Israel went on a crash program with material it's nuclear industry has produced over time. Very particularly noted though, potential number IF such material were put to the use in a short time frame. Oh well... I figured the links I shared on this would be ones others would find interesting too.

The actual numbers of things from sources who make it their business in life to know, are always interesting to see, IMO.

DEAL IS OFF!!

www.timesofisrael.com...

reply to post by CALGARIAN


Love Putin's face there. Looks like he's thinking, "Please, tell me more."

here is some info:

"Israel started investigating the nuclear field soon after its founding in 1948 and with French support secretly began building a nuclear reactor and reprocessing plant in the late 1950s. Israel is alleged to have developed a nuclear weapon in the late 1960s, but it is not publicly confirmed. Mordechai Vanunu, a former Israeli nuclear technician, provided explicit details and photographs to the London Sunday Times of a nuclear weapons program[14] in which he had been employed for nine years, "including equipment for extracting radioactive material for arms production and laboratory models of thermonuclear devices."

Estimates as to the size of the Israeli nuclear arsenal vary between 75 and 400 nuclear warheads, with most estimates at less than 200 warheads. It is also estimated that Israel has the ability to deliver them by the intercontinental ballistic missile Jericho III, aircraft, and submarine."

Stockpile:

1967 (Six Day War)– 2 bombs;[79][80] 13 bombs[81]
1969– 5–6 bombs of 19 kilotons yield each[82]
1973 (Yom Kippur War)– 13 bombs;[52] 20 nuclear missiles plus developed a suitcase bomb[83]
1974– 3 capable artillery battalions each with 12 175 mm tubes and a total of 108 warheads;[84][85] 10 bombs[86]
1976– 10–20 nuclear weapons[a]
1980– 100–200 bombs[88][89]
1984– 12–31 atomic bombs;[90] 31 plutonium bombs and 10 uranium bombs[91]
1985– at least 100 nuclear bombs[92][93]
1986– 100 to 200 fission bombs and a number of fusion bombs[94]
1991– 50–60 to 200–300[95]
1992– more than 200 bombs[93]
1994– 64–112 bombs (5 kg/warhead);[96] 50 nuclear tipped Jericho missiles, 200 total[97]
1995– 66–116 bombs (at 5 kg/warhead);[96] 70–80 bombs;[98] "A complete Repertoire" (neutron bombs, nuclear mines, suitcase bombs, submarine-borne)[99]
1996– 60–80 plutonium weapons, maybe more than 100 assembled, ER variants, varitable yields[100]
1997– More than 400 deliverable thermonuclear and nuclear weapons[3]
2002– Between 75 and 200 weapons[101]
2004– 82[102]
2006– Federation of American Scientists believes that Israel "could have produced enough plutonium for at least 100 nuclear weapons, but probably not significantly more than 200 weapons".[2]
2008– 150 or more nuclear weapons.[103]
2008– 80 intact warheads, of which 50 are re-entry vehicles for delivery by ballistic missiles and the rest bombs for delivery by aircraft. Total military plutonium stockpile 340–560 kg.[104]
2009– Estimates of weapon numbers differ sharply with plausible estimates varying from 60 to 400.[105]
2010– According to Jane's Defense Weekly Israel has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads, most of them are probably being kept in unassembled mode but can become fully functional "in a matter of days".[106]
2010– "More than 100 weapons, mainly two-stage thermonuclear devices, capable of being delivered by missile, fighter-bomber, or submarine"[16]

Delivery systems [edit]

Israel's worldwide reach:

The Jericho III ICBM, became operational in January 2008[118][119] and some reports speculate that the missile may be able to carry MIRVed warheads.[120] The maximum range estimation of the Jericho III is 11,500 km with a payload of 1000–1300 kg (up to six small nuclear warheads of 100 kt each or one 1 megaton nuclear warhead),[5][121] and its accuracy is considered high.[118] In January 2008 Israel carried out the successful test launch of a long-range, ballistic missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead from the reported launch site at the Palmachim Airbase south of Tel Aviv.[122] Israeli radio identified the missile as a Jericho III and the Hebrew YNet news Web site quoted unnamed defence officials as saying the test had been "dramatic"[123][124] and that the new missile can reach "extremely long distances", without elaborating.[125] Soon after the successful test launch, Isaac Ben-Israel, a retired army general and Tel Aviv University professor who is now an MP, told Israeli Channel 2 TV:

reply to post by princeofpeace


You really need to cite the source(s) used in those 3 posts above.

Also, looks like it's back on...

www.bbc.co.uk...

Russia says it will go ahead with deliveries of S-300 anti-aircraft missiles to Syria, and that the arms will help deter foreign intervention.

Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon said the Russian missile systems had not yet left Russia.

"I hope they will not leave, and if, God forbid, they reach Syria, we will know what to do," he said.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

I can see both sides to this one. Syria wants them because Israel has owned their defenses, but Israel is afraid to see them deployed because they can target any plane flying just about anywhere over Israel. It's a rather advanced weapons system too that normal EW has a hard time defeating.

Ok, but Israel can do the same thing over Syria's Country.
So... .....

No they can not. Syria is a big country compared to Israel. Our Patriot system is what Israel uses for air defense at long range against aircraft. Israel would rather have Assad stay in power than not, as they know the replacement will be another Muslim Brotherhood government.

The whole reason Israel can never allow these missiles to come online is that they can target civilian and military aircraft inside Israel from take off. Russia tried to calm Israel by saying they will only be manned by Russians for defensive purposes only. Israel smartly doesn't by that BS so Israel will destroy these missiles and Russians will die and that will be a huge excuse for Putin to attack Israel with the Arabs, something that Russia has always been a part of as they want Israeli ports and resources.

Putin and Obama have caused the Gog-Magog war to get fired off. Putin lose 2/3rds of his army for doing so!