Hello my question is that when many Western People say Muslims/Islam are/is Sexist against Women bec

reply to post by cuckooold


I hope this is not too off topic, but, as it relates to the Islamic interpetation of modesty, and since you appear to be knowledgeable, I hope I'll be allowed this "digression":


I understand from your previous post, that Muslims do not, universally share a single interpetation/compulsitory view of what constitutes "Modest Dress" , vis-a-vis the requirement for women to wear the Hajib when in public. (Hope I got that right!)


But what puzzles me is that the "modesty requirements" for men are seldom, if ever, discussed.


I've heard that men are enjoined to remain covered "from navel to knee", although, this admonishment is far less, or seems far less, binding/enforced than the strictures regarding women's attire.


And it ocurs to me that the sight of a well-muscled, bare-chested man would be every bit as arousing to even the most chaste Muslim woman (and far more likely to be encountered), as an "un-veiled" woman would be to a devout Muslim man.


If this dichotomy is not an indication of Islam's inherent sexism, how does one explain the apparent hypocrisy?

I find the double-standards a bit troubling in this thread.

If I said that women in Islam have it the best, while women in the west are legally banned from wearing the burqa, castigated if they do not dress revealingly and are forced into prostitution and pornography, (all of which is true, just not the complete truth,) I'd be laughed out.

Yet here we are, with the extremes from Saudi Arabia and Iran, accounting for less than 5% of the muslims in the world, being used as to negatively paint the standard of all muslims everywhere.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Can you provide a link to any such executions? I just googled 'Muslims kill rapists' and there were links for that.

1. Saudi Arabia executes Pakistani for rape, murder

2.Iran executes five rapists

Judge Mohammad Erfan said before confirming the hangings yesterday: "Public executions reduce occurrence of offences. Rape is punished by death in our laws. The presence of so many people [to watch the hangings] also proves that they want divine verdicts enforced."

3. 3 convicted child rapists hanged in Iran

edit on 16-5-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Thanks, Skorpion. That's really good to know. Might be a bit harsh, but it also might be a path to 'right' thinking, instead of always blaming the women.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
To me, a posters religious beliefs ARE relevant..

throwing mud at me calling me 'antichrist' isn't discussing anything

The real story is not as dramatic as you make it seem.

You can't be serious. Young Muslim school girls DEAD in Saudi Arabia because the MEN sent them back into a burning school to get their headgear on. Burned alive. It most certainly IS dramatic... and disgusting!

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum


I also wanted to add, Skorpion, that according to your statement. . . .. . .

"However, it is a big thing, according to Islamic law."

IF it such a "BIG THING" then why do Only 6 Countries execute rapists.
I should think that with your statement that they ALL would execute rapists.

But then again that says allot about the Islamic Faith and how they treat women.

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
reply to post by cuckooold

 

I hope this is not too off topic, but, as it relates to the Islamic interpetation of modesty, and since you appear to be knowledgeable, I hope I'll be allowed this "digression":


I understand from your previous post, that Muslims do not, universally share a single interpetation/compulsitory view of what constitutes "Modest Dress" , vis-a-vis the requirement for women to wear the Hajib when in public. (Hope I got that right!)


But what puzzles me is that the "modesty requirements" for men are seldom, if ever, discussed.


I've heard that men are enjoined to remain covered "from navel to knee", although, this admonishment is far less, or seems far less, binding/enforced than the strictures regarding women's attire.


And it ocurs to me that the sight of a well-muscled, bare-chested man would be every bit as arousing to even the most chaste Muslim woman (and far more likely to be encountered), as an "un-veiled" woman would be to a devout Muslim man.


If this dichotomy is not an indication of Islam's inherent sexism, how does one explain the apparent hypocrisy?

I don't disagree with you at all on this. My premise is that Islam is not one monolithic block of thought and attitudes.
You'll find plenty of similarities in what is considered acceptable and what is not in all 3 of the Abrahamic religions. What is called Halal in Islam is named Kosher in Judaism. There are Orthodox Jewish sects which are remarkably similar to fundamentalist Islam, where the women are expected to cover up, sit at the back of the bus, and to travel in their own segregated sidewalk when walking down the street.

Religions are less defined by what they say, and more so by the prevailing attitudes and how the Priests/Imams/Rabbis (all of them men) act. You can find equally disturbing edicts in the Bible, the Koran, and the Torah. It's always worth looking at who is drawing attention to which particular part of a religion's Holy book, and what their agenda really is.

What is not really explored, especially in those conversations which appear designed to show the barbarism of Muslims is just how similar the other two Abrahamic religions are in so many respects.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by demongoat

 

since when is having a choice oppression? that is bloody freedom!

In that case, "freedom" also includes the choice to wear a burka or a hijab.

are they forced to? because all your examples are examples of traditional religious clothing within that group, hijab in a lot of muslim countries force it on women through law.

Why would anyone be forced to wear their own traditional clothing???
A hijab is as traditional / religious to a muslim woman as a sari is to a hindu woman.
Women in muslim countries governed by Shariah, understand it to be their religious duty and wear the hijab or whatever else they wear. Kind of like how the men have beards and wear things on their heads.

Sorry, but that's bull.

The idea that women must cover every inch of their bodies is NOT what Islam teaches. It's a cultural thing, it's by NO means "traditional to Islam" anymore than "God hates New Orleans" is traditional to christians. It's a perversion of Islam, like most things in modern religion humans get their filthy hands on a religion and twist it's "rules" to fit their own plans. THAT'S why women in SOME muslim countries are forced to cover up, not because it's some important religious idea.

Forcing women to cover up is a recent thing for many muslim countries, and nothing to do with Islam.

reply to post by Zngland

Can Islam accept co existence with other religions?

Islam has been co-existing with Judaism and Christianity since its very beginning.

That is funny because an american can buy a Russian bride. We are free, and Russia is not. If i want to view porn, and Russian can raqe a women for the same satisfaction, then what is right or wrong. Religion is a thing of the past, open your eyes and realize if Jesus himself came back that we would all laugh about him on youtube. Religion is what govt. was before we had governments. Do what you want, why do you care what other people think of you?

People of middle eastern religion and decent think women should cover up, and i think it is because of what most american males think...... they don't want their women to be seen by other men and cheat on them. if she is hot, then you want her to yourself, but in the middle east, they are taught just have a bunch of wives with no rights so you can bang whoever you want, plain and simple. religion has nothing to do with it, they just want to be man whores and make their wives be sex slaves, do the laundry and dishes. I on the other hand wish that i could have one partner who is my soul mate, and a woman who I find attractive and my besy friend. I am not any religion because those who are religious, lmfao to you.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum

My Original Point was that Rape Victims are executed more so that the criminals.

Well, I just showed you thats not true at all. Islam calls for the execution of rapists.
The idea that Islam calls for executing rape victims is perpetrated by parties with an agenda against Islam.
IF at all the victim was executed, it would be a lapse on the part of the judicial system, not Islam.

According to your statement . .. . .. "However, it is a big thing, according to Islamic law"
If that is so then why is it ONLY a "Big Thing" in 6 countries in that region .. . . ?

Muslims around the world are not exactly a monolithic group.... nor are they hive minded.

But then again that says allot about the Islamic Faith and how they treat women.

If a rapist in your country walks out on bail, can one say "your country allows rapists go unpunished... speaks a lot about how those people treat their women"?

Its not a good idea to make conclusions on exceptional cases is it?

reply to post by jiggerj

Thanks, Skorpion. That's really good to know. Might be a bit harsh, but it also might be a path to 'right' thinking, instead of always blaming the women.

Its not the "path" to anything. Islam calls for the execution of the rapist. And no, its not the norm that the woman is to be blamed.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum

 

According to your statement . .. . .. "However, it is a big thing, according to Islamic law"
If that is so then why is it ONLY a "Big Thing" in 6 countries in that region .. . . ?

Muslims around the world are not exactly a monolithic group.... nor are they hive minded.

My buddy is serving right now, and those people are not even half minded, they are rats, The middle east is only a threat becaus they are the ghetto of the planet sitting on oil that is there because we don't care that their backyard is mining oil, and they are too stupid to keep it. We will take what we want and give them a decent life.

reply to post by SixX18

My buddy is serving right now, and those people are not even half minded, they are rats,

Funny because they probably see westerners as rats. I guess you guys deserve each other.

We will take what we want and give them a decent life.

Is "decent life" a code word for bombs and invasions?

reply to post by James1982

The idea that women must cover every inch of their bodies is NOT what Islam teaches. It's a cultural thing,

Islam teaches that men and women are to dress modestly, hence the overall covering. I think the same modestly guidelines are mentioned in many other religions as well.

Forcing women to cover up is a recent thing for many muslim countries, and nothing to do with Islam.

Wrong, nobody forces women to wear the clothing that they choose to.
How would you want them to dress up? And why should they dress up to your standards?

From the western perspective people see it as normal for girls to wear revealing and pretty clothing.
Muslim countries see it normal to wear covering clothing.

Now going from revealing to covering is a much more easier than making a society go from covered to revealing. Not saying societies would want to change but bringing people from one culture to another might be a problem.

Inside their own culture it is much more easier for the westerner to go from revealing to covered, than it is for a Muslim to go from covered to revealing. I mean if someone put on more modest clothes no one would point it out, if a Muslim in their country would reveal more it would be noticed.

Thing is people are quite numb to sexuality as we are now, on the streets people don't go whistling or honking at girls (This isn't a Hollywood movie) and try to pick them up on the street. This is were we are the same with "Do-not-disturb-me-in-public-if-I-don't-know-you" routine. We do have areas where mingling with strangers is approved, nightclubs, nightlife in general, parties, going out as a group etc. This is where people mingle, meet and greet. What I am saying is from the Western perspective women are more about fighting eachother for looks than males on a day to day basis.

And women and men also do have modesty on certain occasions. Official meetings, court, funeral, anything grand and formal. People are expected to wear formal wear to not offend, Politicians wear formal clothes to appear respectable and modest. So west certainly does have their own standards and contrasts. Our leaders show us modesty and our celebrities show us fashion. There are politicians who don't dress modestly and celebrities who dress very formally as that is their "thing" and a way to differentiate from the norm so that is not always a solid rule.

Besides some western countries like Finland are moving away from gender by genitalia categories totally. They are trying to make the way you act based on your inner self and not decided by if you have a penis or not. This is done by making all children equal in kindergarden for example, all children play with all toys, dress as they like, no gender based forming is done at all.

Men by current standards or as it's called metrosexuality is getting a hold more and more so men are catching up with women on styles, male makeup, hairstyles etc. Look at younger generations, they put effort into their look just as much as females. I don't know if this is a passing thing as male were already equal in the Baroque era but women having their rights and being dominant might make males more competitive for all of future times on the looks category.

Also about the west sexualizing women. It's probably coming from a male dominated society aspect as we have had all our history. Women rights only came in last century so it's an ongoing process to bring both sexes to be on a level pegging. Having said that male sexualization is just as well happening, maybe not in that amount but still. Posters of men in their underwear, male prostitutes, male strippers, male models, using "hot" males as a way to market stuff. It is all there. Maybe it is hard for us to notice as we ourselves are male and notice women.

Most western countries did have traditional clothes. They did away with them as people at some point wanted to look different and express their own self. As a westerner I am of course biased and I am sure would I be born in a Muslim state I would have the exact opposite view and slaunder how westerners dress. Still what matters is that the west is happy and so are Muslim countries.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. These talks and problems arise thanks to the modern internet and travelling where people come to live in different parts of worlds and we clash. As the western world has become a melting pot of trends and has brought Asia and other countries with it, well Asia is probably even crazier actually and brings trends to West among taking some over. Point is we clash as we try to find a midpoint and as one side is so "liberal" and other is more traditional this is a hard thing to do but interesting thing to observe.

I would like to see gender roles be eased more. That X or Y chromosome at the end shouldn't force people into so many other labels/forms that they would need to take a certain role in the society. It is shown that women are just as capable in every aspect or males doing traditionally feminine matters. I am not saying we should decent to some extreme at once but more gender role freedom and basically how we are going toward even more liberalism seems like the way to go. After all Western/Asian part of the world has given so much in the progress of humans overall in terms of science technology so the system must work if people invent in such conditions. They have done a lot of bad things too with their power but people are people everywhere, be it higher ranks abusing power or as it was pointed out rapists. We have bad habits incoded into us. I mean how many of us would take a lost wallet to ourselves if we were short on money? That would be a bad thing but I am sure that question is hard to answer honestly to some people.