New report questions Israel's claim of "divine right", page 2

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 02:46 AM

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reply to post by pstrron

Studies usually reflect the views of the researcher . But being of the seed of Abraham or even Isaac is not the indicator for being a Jew . You must be of the lineage of Jacob to be a Jew . Isaac had twin sons . Esau I have have hated and Jacob I love said God as he made Jacobs seed his chosen people . You forgot the Edomites from the seed of Esau . They cheered on the Romans killing the Jews . They did not get run out of Israel but mixed with the local non Jewish people.
Still real Jews do live in Israel along with the Khazars and Edomites .

pthena

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 03:14 AM

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reply to post by charles1952

the phrase "Divine right," as used in the headline and by many posters, doesn't appear in the report which this thread is supposedly concerned with. It was inserted by the Iranian government

What? I did a word search. It appears 3 times. The Iranian government had nothing to do with it.
1) Quoting a representative Christian Zionist author, Clarence Wagner

We, who believe the Bible is God’s Word and every promise of God will come to pass, must stand and support Israel’s right to its land. It is a Divine right.

2) Under questions that arise concerning the quoted Christian Zionist position:

viii) How can Christians support the violation of human rights in the name of alleged divinely
conferred exclusive rights to a specific area of land?

3) Under conclusions:

, it can be concluded that Christians should not be supporting any claims by Jewish or any other people, to an exclusive or even privileged divine right to possess particular territory.

edit on 8-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

GonzoSinister

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 04:51 AM

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Surely.....

The underlying issue here and will always be is giving any religon or race land based on there religon or mythology is wrong...

to clarify, some europeans were particularly unpleasant to people who follow the jewish religon (amongst others, and i do not see a "gypsy" home land set up)

bankers and heads of state in the "winning" side gave the people of the religon a home land based on nothing except they kinda felt bad and also there holy book says they deserve it....

i mean i NEVER agree with the church of sctoland, but why people on here still argue about any right at all that people who are not genetically from a place have to claim that place as thier deserved place of origin as stated in a book which legally cannot in any way be shown to contain fact simply perplexes me.

just my thoughts though

defcon5

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 04:53 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

The push for Christian support of Zionism is the reason why most protestants now errantly follow the school of Futurist eschatology , as opposed to the proper school of Historicism that all the founding fathers originally believed. Israel only has a significant part of play in “end times prophecy” when the school of futurism is followed. There is little relating to them after 70AD when following the other two schools of eschatology; Preterism or Historicism. This “Push” is why you will only find popular movies and books relating to futurism. Just to name a few: Left Behind, The Late Great Planet Earth, End of Days, The Seventh Sign, etc...

According to Historicism, God has fulfilled his covenant with the “Jews” through Christ and his death. The “Age of the Jews” is over, and we are now in the “Age of the Church”. In Historicism, about the only significant thing remaining for the Jews prophetically, is for many to convert to Christianity before the “End”.

Futurism takes the same verse that relates to Christ fulfilling the old “covenant” of God “among many” and removing the need for a sacrifice by defeating sin (the new covenant), and reinterprets it into a “future” 7 years period involving a fictitious Jewish/Palestinian “peace treaty” that will allow the Jews to resume the temple sacrifice.

In reality, the refusal of the Jews to accept the messiah and stop animal sacrifice, is what lead to the 70AD destruction by the “people of the prince” (Romans), and Jerusalem being made “desolate”.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

sk0rpi0n

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 05:44 AM

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One verse can perfectly sums up the whole deal between God and the Jews with regard to the land.

the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.
- Leviticus 25:23

Furthermore, their stay on the land was purely conditional.

You rely on your sword, you do detestable things.... Should you then possess the land?’ - Ezekiel 33:26

A modern interpretation of that could be "You live by your hi-tech military and weapons, you are nearly 30% secular atheist, you hold gay pride parades, prostitution is rampant in you, you have rejected the messiah... should you then possess the land?"

I have covered this topic in detail in this thread.

edit on 8-5-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

mangust69

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 06:06 AM

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can be in the 21st century it is time to consider God is not a bearded old man and the higher cosmic cEVILization that left 5776 years ago, its clone on the planet to collect the gold mixednews.ru... water rusdemotivator.ru... and blood akushergynekolog.ru...

PrivateSi

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 07:50 AM

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reply to post by grimghost

Wait till the whole world finds out the real Mount Sinai (and many other Hebrew settlements) are cordoned off 'military zones' in Saudi Arabia! If S. Arabia gets to KEEP ancient Hebrew territory why should Palestine (an already much reduced sized country than the old Philistine Empire) get NOTHING - but invaded & occupied in modernity?!?

Religions arguing over DIVINE RIGHTS is why you ALL must choose atheism, Cruel-Sky-Dictator-WMD worshippers (and wielders)...

edit on 8-5-2013 by PrivateSi because: WMD

Iscool

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 10:45 AM

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Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Anyone who does not pick and choose Torah verses only supportive of Divine Right, knows that the Abrahamic covenant's title to the land was lost by Divine Decision, based on the massive personal and national sins of both Israel and Judah. God considered Israel and Judah His wives, but divorced them and sent them packing, as is usually done in divorces. This divorcement has not yet been rescinded, and is still in force. Therefore, Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.
edit on 7-5-2013 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

Sorry...The land belongs to God...Israel being on the property is fulfillment of phrophecy...No one will move them out of there from here on out...

defcon5

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 11:49 AM

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Originally posted by Iscool
Sorry...The land belongs to God...Israel being on the property is fulfillment of phrophecy...No one will move them out of there from here on out...

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Part of the point of the thread is that there is no such prophecy in the bible, unless you take things and twist them to the meaning that supports Zionism.

As a matter of fact, what the bible does say is:

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Which means that since Christ fulfilled the Covenant of God with the Jewish people, and since they refused to accept the “new covenant”, that God allowed the Romans to destroy the city and temple. From then (70AD) until the “end of the world” they will NEVER peacefully have it back or restart the animal sacrifice.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 5/8/2013 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)

SimonPeter

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 11:52 AM

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reply to post by Iscool

You are right but in this next Gog and Magog war in Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14 Israel will be devastated leaving them with only 1/3rd of the country and 1/2 of the city . The False Prophet /Antichrist will bring about a peace only to have the Temple rebuilt so he can sit in the seat of God and try to claim himself to be God . Some will see him as the Christ because he will stop the war .The true Jews will rebuke him and he will then seek to destroy Israel off the face of the earth . At that time Christ will save Israel

Danbones

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 12:00 PM

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Originally posted by SimonPeter
The Muslims know that " ALLAH " gave the land to the Jews to inhabit forever . This is in the Koran17:104. If I remember it right . The Muslim reply is that they are not Jews but Khazar's that are in Israel now . This is their way of getting around " Allah's" commandment . Strangly enough they may be right for the most part . But there are real Jews in Israel as well so the Muslims need to shut up and get out .
edit on 8-5-2013 by SimonPeter because: (no reason given)

Many experts agree the modern Jew is NOT the biblical Hebrew
Perhaps it is the real Jews in Iran (They couldn't even be bribed to go to Israel)
I can see why some possibly not so "real" Jews might want to blast them possibly more "Real" Jews...
Such destructive rivalry happens all the time where valuable property is involved

Danbones

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 12:02 PM

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Originally posted by Iscool

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Anyone who does not pick and choose Torah verses only supportive of Divine Right, knows that the Abrahamic covenant's title to the land was lost by Divine Decision, based on the massive personal and national sins of both Israel and Judah. God considered Israel and Judah His wives, but divorced them and sent them packing, as is usually done in divorces. This divorcement has not yet been rescinded, and is still in force. Therefore, Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.
edit on 7-5-2013 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

Sorry...The land belongs to God...Israel being on the property is fulfillment of phrophecy...No one will move them out of there from here on out...

You don't do references?
maybe you should

Were is that signed deed again?

edit on 8-5-2013 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

defcon5

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 12:22 PM

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Originally posted by SimonPeter
The False Prophet /Antichrist will bring about a peace only to have the Temple rebuilt so he can sit in the seat of God and try to claim himself to be God . Some will see him as the Christ because he will stop the war .The true Jews will rebuke him and he will then seek to destroy Israel off the face of the earth . At that time Christ will save Israel

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

That prophecy is solely Jesuit Futurism, and was created by the Jesuits under orders of the Council of Trent as part of the Protestant Counter-Reformation.

See here:

Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) was a Spanish Jesuit theologian, identified with the Futurist Christian eschatological view.

In order to remove the papacy of the Catholic Church from consideration as the Antichrist (as an act of countering the Protestant Reformation), Ribera began writing a lengthy (500 page) commentary in 1585 on the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, proposing that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse apply to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3½ literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy because of the Reformation cry stating that "the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist." (Martin Luther, Aug. 18, 1520). Then, he proposed, the Antichrist, a single individual, would:

Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
Abolish the Christian religion.
Deny Jesus Christ.
Be received by the Jews.
Pretend to be God.
Kill the two witnesses of God.
Conquer the world.

To accomplish this, Ribera proposed that the 1260 days and 42 months and 3½ times of prophecy were not 1260 years as based on the year-day principle (Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6), but a literal 3½ years, hence preventing the arrival of the deduction of (i) the 1260 years to be related to the Dark Ages (according to the Historicism (Christianity) interpretation of eschatology from 538 A.D. when the papal power was fully established in Rome until its political blow in 1798 A.D., when Louis-Alexandre Berthier the general of Napoleon captured pope Pius VI as prisoner to Valence, France) and (ii) the Antichrist to be related to papacy.

If you read my post above, you'll see I'm stating that because THIS version of interpretation supports Zionism, it has been very popular with the media; however, it's not the only and certainly not the truest.

Anyone who is Catholic should be following the Preterist interpretation, and anyone who is a protestant should be following the Historicist interpretation. ALL the original Protestant reformers followed and believed in Historicism. Just to name a few: Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, The Westminster Confession of Faith, even Sir Issac Newton.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 5/8/2013 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)

charles1952

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 12:47 PM

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reply to post by pthena

Dear pthena,

Thank you very much. I was wrong and you are right, sorry.

But again, I note that I've called that a small point. defcon5 and others have pointed out that this report is simply the presentation of one side of a debate which has been going on for a very long time.

This is an opinion piece which, understandably, people are using as an argument for their side of an issue. Other religious opinion pieces support the opposite side. Again, it's not surprising, but it is obvious that people of all stripes turn to the Bible when it supports their view, and away from it when it doesn't.

With respect,
Charles1952

defcon5

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 01:03 PM

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reply to post by SimonPeter

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Futurism vs Historicism
In a nutshell:

Daniel 7 “the beasts”
Futurism:
1) Babylon
2) Media/Persia
3) Greece
4) The New World Order
4a) “little horn” = an antichrist man

Historicism:
1)Babylon
2)Media/Persia
3)Greece
4)Rome
4a) “little horn” = the Pontifex Maximus or Pope.

Revelation 13 “Beasts”
Futurism:
1)The Antichrist
2)The false Prophet

Historicism:
1)Papal Rome
2)The United States.

Daniel 9 “the seventy weeks”:
Futurism
1) Daniel 9;26-27
Takes the last week of the 70 weeks and moves it to the future for some “unexplained” reason. During that time an antichrist will negotiate a peace treaty between the Palestinians and Israel, rebuild the temple and then take the sacrifice back away.

Historicism
1)Daniel 9:26-27
Leaves the 70th week where it should be historically. Christ fulfills the covenant with the Jews, takes away the sacrifice as now being unnecessary as he made the ultimate sacrifice for forgiveness (shown in the New testament as the temple veil being torn at Christs death), he ushers in the “new covenant”, he is rejected by the Jews, God allows the Romans to destroy both the Temple and the city. This ends the “age of the Jews” and begins the “age of the church”.

Start with just these verses and try reading them both ways, and you will begin to understand how these interpretations have been twisted to fit an agenda.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

troubleshooter

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 01:11 PM

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The injustice was not giving the Palestinians the same assistance as the resettled Jews.

If the British had done this there would have been no basis for conflict.

VelvetSplash

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 03:26 PM

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All claims to divine rights are vile, disgusting excuses for gain, not just this particular one.

The Zionist cause destabilizes that area - which clearly someone is benefiting from. Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.

edit on 8-5-2013 by VelvetSplash because: (no reason given)

Miracula

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 03:36 PM

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Originally posted by Evanzsayz
If Israel is divine...then I am God himself.

The entire "state" of Israel suffers from mental retardation.

SimonPeter

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 04:41 PM

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reply to post by troubleshooter

The British worked against the Jewish settlers as hard as they could . The British set the Jews up to be crushed . By the way the Jews bought an awful lot of land up from the Arabs . Then on the day of celebration of their independence as a Nation the Arabs attacked them . The Israelites beat the hapless Arabs back and took a buffer zone to boot .

pthena

posted on May, 8 2013 @ 04:51 PM

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reply to post by charles1952

Dear Charles 1952:

Opinions are important. The perception of popular public opinion is actually more important when dealing with democratic type governments.

Yes, you are correct. The Church of Scotland is giving it's opinion. They are supporting the Kairos Palestine statement of 2009.

This document is the Christian Palestinians’ word to the world about what is happening in Palestine. It is written at this time when we wanted to see the Glory of the grace of God in this land and in the sufferings of its people. In this spirit the document requests the international community to stand by the Palestinian people who have faced oppression, displacement, suffering and clear apartheid for more than six decades. The suffering continues while the international community silently looks on at the occupying State, Israel. Our word is a cry of hope, with love, prayer and faith in God. We address it first of all to ourselves and then to all the churches and Christians in the world, asking them to stand against injustice and apartheid, urging them to work for a just peace in our region, calling on them to revisit theologies that justify crimes perpetrated against our people and the dispossession of the land.
A Moment of Truth

Due to pressure from Jewish organizations and Jewish-Christian dialog groups, many Denominations in U.S. and Europe issued statements condemning the Palestinian Christian statement. The Church of Scotland is voicing its own opinion in support of Palestinian Christian opinions.

That is their right, and some would even say, their duty.

with respect,
PThena

edit on 8-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)