Many in Muslim world want sharia as law of land: survey

reply to post by sonnny1


May I ask, what is your own religious background?

Assuming you are a religious person, would you want to live in a land that is governed by a judicial system stemming from your religion?

reply to post by beezzer

If a majority in their own country want sharia law, then they should have it.

But if they try to implement it in a geographical region where it is not accepted, then that is where I would find issue.

Hi. What do you have to say about America using force to implement their versions of freedom and democracy in Muslim countries.... that too by using force at the cost of many lives? Is all that justified?

If America reserves the right to implement their version of freedom and democracy in Muslim lands... then I guess Muslims also have the same right to implement their way of life in non-Muslim countries.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that Islamic law would last very long in a country that upholds blasphemy, ungodliness, fornication, homosexuality, adultery, abortion and all sorts of ungodliness... but still, why is it that only America has the right to spread its way of life in other countries.

The concepts of justice and freedom are fluid. You need better terminology.

Religious zealots want to enforce their beliefs on everyone else. The western religions reformed and they stopped burning people and chopping heads off 1500 years ago. I'm proud of secular organization. I think it's fair and sustainable. If humans don't destroy everything, religion will ultimately be recognized for the mental illness it is.

Unreformed religion exists for one purpose, to reproduce and spread like a bacterial colony. They will not stay within their borders. Appeasement won't work. Go ahead and ask them how they feel about infidels anywhere regardless of national border. I dare you.

If you want a theocracy with your personal belief system, you are a programmed clone that is designed to live in the next world, not this one. Not a true existential human being in this world. That's my opinion. My suggestion is hurry on your way to the next world. This world will be better for it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by beezzer

 

If a majority in their own country want sharia law, then they should have it.

But if they try to implement it in a geographical region where it is not accepted, then that is where I would find issue.

Hi. What do you have to say about America using force to implement their versions of freedom and democracy in Muslim countries.... that too by using force at the cost of many lives? Is all that justified?

If America reserves the right to implement their version of freedom and democracy in Muslim lands... then I guess Muslims also have the same right to implement their way of life in non-Muslim countries.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that Islamic law would last very long in a country that upholds blasphemy, ungodliness, fornication, homosexuality, adultery, abortion and all sorts of ungodliness... but still, why is it that only America has the right to spread its way of life in other countries.

edit on 1-5-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I'm all for America keeping its nose out of everyone's business. Our own country is in shambles. We need to take care of things "at home".

I do believe that the falsehood and allegations that USA goes around the world imposing its brand of democracy and freedom had gone on long enough.

Democracy and freedom is not something that USA created, for such idealism had already long existed in our world, with Greece being the first ones to have records of it.

It may had gone even further back to the times of Hammurabi who set up codices for the governance and regulation of lives in a civilised state for peaceful co-existant and rule of law such as 2000 BC Babylon, inscribed on stones for our present generation to discover, if we are not willing to accept biblical chronicles.

Democracy and freedom is a longing of ALL humankind. USA, with its 2 centuries of continued civilisation while others had fell, had only sustained and maintain such concepts for all the world to see, which many, even uneducated villagers have sense of such for stability and progress.

Islam stands for justice and equality. This was what prophet Muhammad had taught, as what other biblical prophets since the time King David fell had tried to impart.

Looking at the world today, do we see justice and equality being meted out to all mankind? Only in certain evolved nations and not all. Many of mankind had been shackled with stupidity and enslavement to slave for their masters - politician, corporate and theology leaders as well as ambitious men.

USA is not perfect. NO nation on Earth is. But at least, US have the capacity to change, through the vote and an educated masses capable of logic and reason, and is a beason for all mankind. Can we say the same for repressive states in our world, whereby if one so much as say the word 'reform' will only get made to disappear into the night?

USA does not interfere in other nations unless threatened, just like any other nation will do the same. USA cares about trade stability for it is economics that will uplift lives and would need democracy and freedom to achieve it, not repressive and murderous idealogies such as what other nations had been doing to their own citizens, and thus not only is US concerned, but our World as well, to save lives and if possible - maintain stability if those leaders wisened up.

Stick to facts and we will find a solution to our woes, but if we cling onto falsehoods or unsubstantiable allegations, it would only lead to tragic consequences later for all.

Way to pick and choose here. If other religions had the choice...they would want that religion to be the rule of the land. So what is the point.


When Christians controlled crap they killed and slaughter supposed sinners. Same as Catholics.

Point is...religion should never be in control of anything...the last thing the world needs is brainwashed idiots..running things.

reply to post by kerazeesicko


Religion is its purest form is all about moral and ethical guidelines for mankind to progress and evolve, and not about worshipping the Almighty alone.

Those guidelines had been passed down to us by our generations, and we have the gift of free will to choose, for if a man is robbed of his choice, he is no more than a slave. Go ahead and experiment, get outside of those guidelines and see if you can progress and evolve.

The sad fact is we do not, did not and will not, as centuries of human civilisation that rose and fell had proven time and time again when we strayed from those guidelines.

Atheists, whom are only our fellow human brothers and sisters whom have yet to know our common Creator on a personal level as it is meant to be, love to attack that religion hinders than progresses.

But the truth is, were ANY human upon birth know full well those moral and ethical guidelines? None.

It was through their exposure to parents, relatives and friends whom make up our society and world that they got to know about those moral and ethical guidelines that had served mankind well. We DO live in a religious world, and majority of mankind do adopt religion.

Even China and Russia, whom repudiated religion and called it opiate of the masses, had returned to religion (moral and ethical guidelines) as a way it can keep the heavy evil of corruption and apathy out of their own countries now.

However, do not assume that I paint a rosy picture of religion here. It must be acknowledged that they are animals in human guises that had misused and misinterpretated religion for their own purposes, but they are a minority. As we mankind gets more educated, we will be able to discern them better and hold them accountable.

No system is perfect for all men are only flawed. Not even atheists beliefs as China and Russia had proven. But the principles of religion - moral and ethical guidelines, and had been that which are incorprated into progressive republic constitution - had never failed mankind at any time throughout the course of recorded human civilisations since 5000 years ago.

reply to post by sonnny1


Suicide bombings are a somewhat valid way to mount an insurgency against a superior invading force, or an imposed regime - it's not all that different to red dawn - if it was American's blowing themselves up to kill the invading ruskies I think there would be a lot of people applauding it.

Given that the state that our meddling has left a lot of these nations I don't think it's all that surprising.

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by sonnny1

 

If a majority in their own country want sharia law, then they should have it.

But if they try to implement it in a geographical region where it is not accepted, then that is where I would find issue.

And that's the problem, isn't it?

There are many here in the States that want it also.

Enough to have States pass anti-Sharia legislation.

Sonn,

Let me start by saying I'm not religious so my views are from "outside of the bubble".

The problem is not the Shari'ah law itself, it is, as many Muslims themselves agree, the many varied, radical and skewed interpretations that are the problem.

Its like... lets say you live by the the Bible (the Bible is as much against homosexuality as the Qur'ran btw). Many would say thats fine I guess... well lets say you take it a bit further, interpret it your way, lets say you take it by the book, quite literally and start to radicalize everything you read on the Bible (many do). If you ever read it, its quite a dangerous book in my opinion.

Regarding suicide bombing, those boys and girls, men and women are just fooled and lied to, because, just like the Bible, the Qur'an also condones suicide and does not, in any shape or form promote suicide bombing for any cause.

Im not religious I could find this in a second, just like anyone can, these "suicide bombers" are just people used to fulfill an agenda by people that dont respect their own religion.

[2:195] You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

[4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

[4:30] Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do.

Neither Quran or the Sunnah (Hadiths) of the prophet support or incite to suicide. These are again the way people interpret things. Or the way people WANT to interpret so it better fits their crazy agendas and send these people to die and kill others for them.

The problem is not the Qur'an, is not the Bible, is not the Shari'ah, the problem is, as always - what goes inside the fanatical mind of a human being and the puppet masters and their strings and their agendas.

Many in Muslim world want sharia as law of land: survey

Thats fine let them, as long as its in the "Muslim world" and not here.

reply to post by Danbones

Hey that was well posted: All the religious bickering and killing could be stopped in a heart beat if a Biblegod came back and got in mankind's face and once again laid the law down as he was once known to do.

At the hour of the afternoon sacrifice the prophet Elijah approached the altar and prayed, “O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove now that you are the God of Israel. and that I am your servant and have done all this at your command. Answer me, LORD, answer me, so that this people will know that you, the LORD, are God and that you are bringing them back to yourself.”
The LORD sent fire down, and it burned up the sacrifice, the wood, and the stones, scorched the earth and dried up the water in the trench.
When the people saw this, they threw themselves on the ground and exclaimed. “The LORD is God; the LORD alone is God!”
Elijah ordered, “Seize the prophets of Baal; don’t let any of them get away!” The people seized them all, and Elijah led them down to Kishon Brook and killed them. (1st Kings 18)

Now THAT’S the way to settle the disagreement!!!!!! and I guess it also lays to rest the Christian excuse of “not tempting the Lord” when it comes to making Biblegod prove himself. No more hot air arguments, no more geek-speak. Just “show me actions not words!”. Biblegod (according to the Bible) wasn’t shy about PROVING his existence way back then, for the Bible says that God changes not- he is the same yesterday, today, forever.
I the LORD do not change (Malachi 3:6 RSV)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8 RSV)
THEREFORE, if it was a good and acceptable thing for him to prove his existence back then with “fire from heaven” it would be good for him nowadays as well, especially seeing how he’s competing against a lot more gods or messiahs than just Baal.

Now let us look at the three steps of the Muslim government/religion:
STAGE ONE—When Muslims are completely outnumbered and can’t possibly win a physical confrontation with unbelievers, they are to live in peace with non-Muslims and preach a message of tolerance. We see an example of this stage when Muhammad and his followers were a persecuted minority in Mecca. Since the Muslims were entirely outnumbered, the revelations Muhammad received during this stage (e.g. “You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion”) called for religious tolerance and proclaimed a future punishment (rather than a worldly punishment) for unbelievers.

STAGE TWO—When there are enough Muslims and resources to defend the Islamic community, Muslims are called to engage in defensive Jihad. Thus, when Muhammad had formed alliances with various groups outside Mecca and the Muslim community had become large enough to begin fighting, Muhammad received Qur’an 22:39-40:

STAGE THREE—When Muslims establish a majority and achieve political power in an area, they are commanded to engage in offensive Jihad. Hence, once Mecca and Arabia were under Muhammad’s control, he received the call the fight all unbelievers. In Surah 9:29, we read:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Notice that this verse doesn’t order Muslims to fight oppressors, but to fight those who do not believe in Islam (including the “People of the Book”—Jews and Christians). Not surprisingly, we find similar commands in Islam’s most trusted collections of ahadith (traditions containing Muhammad’s teachings).

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.”

Sahih Muslim 30— “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

Ibn Kathir sums up Stage Three as follows: “Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the Jizyah, they should be fought till they are killed.”

There seems to always be a reason some government or religion needs to kill someone, no?

I have lived in Saudi Arabia and flown all over the mid-east to such garden spots as Egypt, Yemen, and Oman. I have even been to Mecca many times; well the airport which should count for something?
I have no problem with any other religion until the shooting starts or the bombs go off. Then all the platitudes and words stop having meaning and it gets personal real quick.
Some of the above was copied from a post of mine in this thread www.abovetopsecret.com... by mideast

reply to post by 727Sky


1. Mankind had been given divine teachers whom had worked miracles and yet they had strayed. Our Creator was in their presence once and yet they dared commit murders and atrocities as soon as they thought He was not looking. What makes you think His presence today will ensure we remain true the moment He turns his back?

We have free will to choose. May we choose wisely.along with using our brains in comprehension for once, for facts,logic and reasons, instead of fantazies.


2. There will always be ambitious and greedy men whom will use all and any means to gain wealth, priviledges and power from the masses. Only democracy, holistic education and freedom of speech can halt those men, through the sharing, discussing and finding truth and solutions with one another so that none be twisted or be misled.

Ultimately, all human kind desires and shares the same common values. Being enslaved is not one of those values.


3. It must be acknowledged by all that the Koran and the hardiths were written much later by flawed mortals and not by the Prophet himself. Immediately after his death, even before his body turned cold, Abu Bakr seized power and invaded Persia, which was not the intention of the Prophet as he knew he had to win the hearts and minds of persians and the noble, not just the foolish use of might.

He was proven wise and right again, because that was the beginning of the schism which split Islam for 1200 years till today.

Thus, how much of the Koran and Hardith's interpretation and powers of recall by flawed latter mortal men be trusted?

However, one thing for sure is that while one can forget or twist a word or lines or 2, it would be impossible to totally twist the entire Koran. And the Koran DO share the same tenets and principles of the Bible, fully acknowledged by scholars.

Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I can not believe such news.
muslims are victims of the minority radical suicide bombers. how can they support that !?
suicide terrorists who are killing innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria,.......
however radicals are getting more and more power these days, because those terrorists are supported by governments. it is government terrorism.
I can not understand why you feel that muslims want to impose Sharia law on you. are you living in a muslim country ?
and I can not understand why some countries condemn muslim countries for imposing Sharia law on themselves !?

Many feel that way because they look at countries in Europe where the three Steps are being followed to the letter. Neighborhoods where Sharia law is enforced despite the laws of the land saying there are courts in the land that will be used in criminal matters. Child brides of 7 and 5 years old married to 30 something year old men caught my attention but of course all that is an aberration of the teaching..no it is not.

I am not going to look all this stuff up; there are plenty of references and cases for those who want to see what is going on. Many things in Sharia are so foreign to the western mind that I find it difficult to believe that the two will ever reside in peace and harmony.

You can have whatever form of law you want in your country but don't try to push it on me in my country.

If you want Sharia law, move to a country that has it.

Just my opinion.

I always wonder if people realise that there are already religious courts in many countries around the world for things like marriage and divorce and what not, not just Islamic, but Jewish and Sikh, heres a bit from the BBC about is in the UK

news.bbc.co.uk...

It doesn't always have to be some terrifying conspiracy like some of the more rabid opponents make out

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Muslims - shia, sunni, Christians, Jews all worshipped the same common Creator, who is known by many names across cultures, barriers, time and space. We all do have common values and even shares common moral and ethical guidelines, for they came from the same Source, but may had been misinterpretated or twisted by flawed man.

All souls come from the same source whatever view they have. The so called eastern philosophy have the Oneness as it's god that they return to when the have learned to behave and the christian faith pray to the
Jehovah = "the existing One" (and is probably meant to be translated as the only existing One).

There is no real duality in the source of all religions but still all religions are pale storytelling for the real thing. There is only one god and humans who are to young to understand it yet. But the hide and seek game is to see what view you will create or follow based on input surrounding you. Will it be idealistic and loving or will it have hateful aspects in it.

reply to post by 727Sky


Um, I can find you equivalent or even worse practices in non-islamic countries - hell I could probably find some from the US if I was that bothered, for instance the US army defines the age of consent as low as 12 years old for servicemen in some situations, doesn't sound all that morally superior to me! Or did you know it's still entirely legal to have sex with animals in Washington state? People have even married horses in the US - no religious reason there, just plain nasty messed up individuals!
And bad as some interpretations of Sharia law might be, at least there's something resembling a legal process there - much fairer than Guantanamo Bay!

I'm not denying that absolutely shocking things happen in the region, but putting it all down to the religion isn't accurate, it just makes it easier for some people to point fingers. Lots of nasty stuff happens in ALL countries, but the way some people carry on it's only Sharia law that makes it possible...
Poor countries tend to be nastier and less advanced is a much better rule of thumb than "sharia law is evil".

This should only come as a surprise to those that are deluded by western style Islam and the followers therein. There is no radical Islam, only Islam, and all liberal interpretations thereof. The backlash against Muslims after 9/11 created a kneejerk reaction amongst the populace to view Muslim terrorist activities as simply a small, radical wing; perpetrated by media bias, and liberalized Islamic scholars. When it comes to Muslims, there are three kinds: 1) those who are ignorant of the truth, 2) those who know the truth but actively turn away from it, 3) those who know the truth and apply such teachings. To those who are quoting scripture as a means to display the misunderstandings of "radicals", it is incredibly disingenuous of you not to include a teaching on the principle of Abrogation as it applies to Muslim practice.

And out come the wolves...

reply to post by 727Sky

Many things in Sharia are so foreign to the western mind that I find it difficult to believe that the two will ever reside in peace and harmony.

Yeah, non usury banking being foremost among the things the western mind cannot fathom.

Shariah law imposes certain restrictions on finance and investments within the Muslim community.

The 2 most significant effects of Shariah law on Islamic finance are the restrictions on:
•Usury (Riba), paying excessive interest.
•Impermissible (Haraam) investments.

www.islamicinvestmentnetwork.com...

What would our government be without all those derivatives and LIBOR riggings and trillions of dollars in debt? However would we cope with a legitimate currency?

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

USA does not interfere in other nations unless threatened, just like any other nation will do the same. USA cares about trade stability for it is economics that will uplift lives and would need democracy and freedom to achieve it, not repressive and murderous idealogies such as what other nations had been doing to their own citizens, and thus not only is US concerned, but our World as well, to save lives and if possible - maintain stability if those leaders wisened up.

Stick to facts and we will find a solution to our woes, but if we cling onto falsehoods or unsubstantiable allegations, it would only lead to tragic consequences later for all.

Where have you been the last 30 years to have the above view? Do you have any idea about the crap US have pulled in South America, Asia and Africa for greed and pushing corporations interest. Talk about believing the propaganda you are feed. The US War machine are bloodthirsty mercenaries pumped up on nationalism using the "we only are defending ourselves" propaganda. History does repeat itself. 80 years ago the lunatic was named Adolf Hitler. This time the names are George W. Bush and Barrack Obama.

This should be the American National Anthem