Active Theocrats: The New Apostolic Reformation and The Seven Mountain Domionists

reply to post by seabag

America will never become a Christian nation and these 7 Mountain Nutters are never going to be in charge.

Some Christians fervently believe that this IS a "Christian" nation.
"under God" was not added to the pledge of allegiance until the 1950s.
Likewise, "In God We Trust" was not added to paper currency until the 1950s.

The Founding Fathers were NOT Christians. At most, SOME OF THEM were Deists. John Adams, in 1797, wrote in Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli that:
"The Government of the United States of America, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

James Madison spoke about "religious bondage" and how it "shackles and debilitates the mind."
George Washington never declared he was Christian.

I hope that you are correct, and the USA will never be a "Christian" nation.

reply to post by logical7


As an aside, the guy Umar sounds like he'd be a good ruler whether or not he believed in God.

Yes, world leaders should do all those things, and be held accountable. And here, although transparency and behind-closed-doors things are happening, we are TRYING to bring them to justice. In the real world. Here.

Our President says he is a Christian. That's fine. As long as he works to end oppression, provide for the weak and needy, and bring fair justice to all, he's doing his job.

People with disbelief can STILL be good people. Do you really not get that?

John Adams, in 1797, wrote in Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli that:
"The Government of the United States of America, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

No, it's been known generally since 1930 that that venerable, but completely fake quote isn't a translaion of the Arabic article 11, or even a summary of its subject matter.

The eleventh article of the Barlow translation has no equivalent whatever in the Arabic. The Arabic text opposite that article is a letter from Hassan Pasha of Algiers to Yussuf Pasha of Tripoli. The letter gives notice of the treaty of peace concluded with the Americans and recommends its observation. Three fourths of the letter consists of an introduction, drawn up by a stupid secretary who just knew a certain number of bombastic words and expressions occurring in solemn documents, but entirely failed to catch their real meaning. Here the only thing to be done by a translator is to try to give the reader an impression of the nonsensical original:

avalon.law.yale.edu...

Adams didn't write the Tripoli treaty in any case. However, among President Adams' generally attributed writings is the Constitution of Massachusetts. It established the Protestant church in the Commonwealth. "Congress shall make no law..." meant, among other things, that the federal government would not interfere with Massachusetts' mandatory and tax-supported Christianity.

www.malegislature.gov...

Botttom line: The United States before the Civil War was a federation of sovreigns. The United States wasn't founded as a Christian country, but it comprised states that were founded, and continued to operate, as Christian republics, along with other states with other religious policies.

Originally posted by abeverage
I have been waiting for the pendulum to swing to the extreme right.


Gonna make the dark ages look like the age of enlightenment....

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, and I'm a Christian.
What else though characterised those times? Extreme superstition, and what do we see all over many of the western nations today? Massive interest in Psychic hotlines, yoga, meditation, angels, demons, ghost hunting shows, extraterrestrials, incense burning, palm reading, exaltation of sex, vampires, werewolves, talking to the "dead", mediums, blood and violence, child sacrifice etc All of which are things which Jesus Christ freed our minds from, but as true faith falls away, these pagan superstititions and practices take control of the mind once again. These are the sorts of things which enslave people, so a religion like the one rising will gain ground even among secular society. It's all about signs, experiences and visions. It's uniting all of the world even former atheists seared on their mind due to Buddhist meditation and drug trips. In those dark ages the church and it's "mystics" ruled. The Catholic Church has allowed these evangelicals to teach their parishes tgeir brand of Buddhist meditation, and its uniting them all. Its, in fact, uniting the world in their brand of "oneness". This is what we are gaining whilst we lose the rational guidance of Our Creator who is Light and goodness.

To those solely focused on this movement...please dig deeper. It is the same thing happening in the Muslim circles with its mysticism, the new age circles with its mysticism, the occult with its mysticism, Buddhism and Hinduism with its mysticism....and as they all fry and sear their brains in mind altering meditation and drugs, they all gravitate together to rebuild the last tower and city....the Freemasonry "brotherhood of man" preaching. We were all told that the serpent was to be unbound to once again deceive, and we are watching the serpent and pyramids rising with its "illumination" symbols, its "third eye enlightenment". This is our immediate future - on a global scale. Everything is in the Bible and it only takes prayer to get understanding. The world is standing in awe of this beast rising, and yet, we are encouraged to seek Our God to know that He is in charge of this time. Men are uniting to once again choose the wrong son of the father.

reply to post by eight bits

Botttom line: The United States before the Civil War was a federation of sovreigns. The United States wasn't founded as a Christian country, but it comprised states that were founded, and continued to operate, as Christian republics, along with other states with other religious policies.

Fair enough.
If Adams didn't say that, he didn't say it.
BUT, the Founding Fathers were NOT CHRISTIANS. And even if there "states" that fancy themselves "Christian Republics" they can't FORCE people to BE Christian. I don't know of ANY state that has mandatory Christianity laws YET, and I think it's disgusting to even consider such a thing. The idea of separating Church and "State" still holds, though, doesn't it? The governor of my home state is on the list of these NAR people - and he IS doing things that many people are very unhappy with.

What would they do, throw people in jail for not attending church weekly? Tax them or otherwise penalize them? Like, "no, no Driver's License for you without a notarized preacher's statement that you attend church regularly."??
"You can't move here unless you get baptized at the border and agree to attend the Church of State"?

Stupid and backward.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

Everything is in the Bible and it only takes prayer to get understanding.

No, everything is NOT in the Bible, and the Abrahamic religions are ALL based on superstition. Nice try to spin it and blame "occultists" as the Devil, but a fail.

I've read enough about Jesus to be fairly convinced that he himself was a master of Eastern thought, and that is what he was teaching. There's evidence that he spent the "missing years" learning the techniques of meditation and Eastern mysticism sprinkled throughout areas like Kashmir and Buddhist monasteries.

If one becomes literate in that style of thinking (which is difficult for Western thinkers to wrap their heads around as it is contrary to how Westerners, or "Occidentals" think), one can see PLAINLY that what he said and taught REFLECTS the same levels of mysticism and transcendence that the yogis, gurus, and monks use. They are able to put themselves into catatonic trances that resemble death - slowing their heart rates to extremes.

There is also substantial evidence that he may very well have survived the ordeal of the crucifixion, was helped by his Essene friends who were noted for their medicinal skills, and 'spirited away' (in the sense of Witness Protection Programs or voluntary exile) BACK to the East where he lived out a long life.

In any case, modern "non-denominational lay interpretation" of the Bible (which includes improperly trained "pastors" who go to "Bible Colleges" that have nothing to do with serious scholarship, but are more about teaching manipulation and public speaking techniques) has gone round the bend. Who can seriously believe in talking snakes, articulate shrubberies, a dirt man, a rib woman, dinosaurs climbing aboard a big boat alongside goats and ostriches, and a flood creating the Grand Canyon? Preposterous. How otherwise intelligent ADULTS can believe those things is baffling; even more baffling is how unable they are to see it, while meanwhile they jump to point out 'flaws' in the thinking of others and condemn them to "hell".

Hell is a construct invented to impose fear. I don't mean to upset you and others who think like that, but it is what it is, and there are some of us who really, really want you to realize it.

Last night I went to a major music concert in my city - nearly 13,000 people were there and there was some bozo with a bullhorn and a big banner with some passage from Acts 16 on it trying to "save" us "sinners" from "hellfire." At a classic pop-rock show? In 2013? It was Fleetwood Mac, not some demonic cult band!!

Fleetwood Mac!!! :shk: Not Alice Cooper or Kiss or Ozzy Ozborne or Marilyn Manson.

It really was unbelievable that he was there - yet, there he stood.

He was met with a mass rear view of every one of the hundreds and hundreds of people - ranging from kids with their parents to retired people to college-age and young 20 and 30somethings, all gathering outside the doors, totally peacefully, and was drowned out by a mobile radio broadcast tent of pop music and the crowd's talking to one another. He even repeated more than once that "I'm not with the Westboro Baptist Church, if I knew they were here I'd take them on." He made a total ass and a fool of himself and was summarily ignored. Fine if he wants to believe it, but yes, that kind of thinking will be, and is reasonably, "mocked" for the ridiculousness that it is.

BUT, the Founding Fathers were NOT CHRISTIANS. And even if there are "Christian Republics" they can't FORCE people to BE Christian.

Most were. And no, states couldn't force people to be Christians, no more than they could force the willing Christians to be good Christians. Fortunately, the states were practical, and those states with established churches setlled for collecting taxes, by force, as all taxes are collected by force, for the support of their churches. States with religious tests for public office settled for people swearing relevant oaths, on pain of being deprived of the office.

I don't know of ANY state that has mandatory Christianity laws YET,...

None will, until either the First or Fourteenth Amendement is amended or repealed. However, Maryland enforced a religious test for public office until the middle of the Twentieth Century. It wasn't Christian, though, any belief in God would do.

It is interesting that Rhode Island became a leader in religious liberty because of their devotion to Christianity... they thought it was unChristian to force someone to be of the right faith. Pennsylvanian thinking was similar. It is a very interesting subject, much more interesting than the competing caricatures of the Founders that the living "sides" retroject onto the situation.

I think the probelm is that with thousands of incompatible varieties of Christianity serving a membership of over two billion, then you're bound to find several varieties of Christianity you don't like, who actually do want to do things that are nasty and vile. The median voter, however, rules aroung here, and the median voter has a strict quota of one hour a week that is given over to godly affairs.

Until the median voter gets serious about religion, the revolution ain't coming. Hell will freeze over first.

reply to post by wildtimes

The Abrahamic religions are ALL oppressive. Theocracy = Oppressive Religion

NO! Religion is fine, its the people who are abusing it, the same can be said about democracy, are not leaders abusing it a lot lately? So when church was oppressive people blamed it on religion, why not then blame democracy(secularism) for the oppressive rule and throw it off too?

You will never convince me that
people without religion can not be
moral, good, kind, and do the right
thing. If you really believe that,
logical7, I can only hope to enlighten
you to how mistaken you are.

one of my best friend is an atheist. He is good and moral.

I am objecting to your assumption that religion does not make people good, they are good by themselves and religion just takes the credit.

reply to post by wildtimes

Yes, I am sure. I am absolutely sure that human beings wrote the holy books from their own thoughts -

I'l like to hear it after you have read Qur'an.

reply to post by logical7

I am objecting to your assumption that religion does not make people good, they are good by themselves and religion just takes the credit.

It's not an "assumption", logical7, it's a FACT.

Where do Morals Come From?

Being nice to others and cooperating with them aren't uniquely human traits. Frans de Waal, director of Emory University's Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Lawrenceville, Georgia, studies how our close primate relatives also demonstrate behaviors suggestive of a sense of morality.

De Waal recently published a book called The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates which synthesizes evidence that there are biological roots in human fairness, and explores what that means for the role of religion in human societies. CNN's Kelly Murray recently spoke with De Waal about the book.

read this article on CNN's light-years blog for an interview with De Waal.
The book's summary says:

In this lively and illuminating discussion of his landmark research, esteemed primatologist Frans de Waal argues that human morality is not imposed from above but instead comes from within. Moral behavior does not begin and end with religion but is in fact a product of evolution.

This is another one:
The Neurobiology of Criminal Behavior

The main feature of this work is that it explores criminal behavior from all aspects of Tinbergen's Four Questions. Rather than focusing on a single theoretical point of view, this book examines the neurobiology of crime from a biosocial perspective.

It suggests that it is necessary to understand some genetics and neuroscience in order to appreciate and apply relevant concepts to criminological issues. Presenting up-to-date information on the circuitry of the brain, the authors explore and examine a variety of characteristics, traits and behavioral syndromes related to criminal behavior such as ADHD, intelligence, gender, the age-crime curve, schizophrenia, psychopathy, violence and substance abuse.

This book brings together the sociological tradition with the latest knowledge the neurosciences have to offer and conveys biological information in an accessible and understanding way. It will be of interest to scholars in the field and to professional criminologists.

This one is from YESTERDAY on npr.org:
Criminologist Believes Violent Behavior Is Biological

Adrian Raine was the first person to conduct a brain imaging study on murderers and has since continued to study the brains of violent criminals and psychopaths. His research has convinced him that while there is a social and environmental element to violent behavior, there's another side of the coin, and that side is biology.

"Just as there's a biological basis for schizophrenia and anxiety disorders and depression I'm saying here there's a biological basis also to recidivistic violent offending," Raine, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania and author of the new book The Anatomy of Violence: The Biological Roots of Crime tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross.

Raine says that this re-visioning of violent criminals could potentially help direct how we approach crime prevention and rehabilitation.

And the book highlighted above has this 'description' of its premise:

A leading criminologist who specializes in the neurological and biosocial bases of antisocial and violent behavior draws on a wide range of new scientific research to explain how brain impairments that control the experiences of fear, decision-making and empathy can render people more likely to engage in criminal activity.

THIS IS SCIENCE. IT IS being PROVEN that people - and some animals - are "wired" for moral behavior or immoral behavior. "Religion" and "fear of hell" may stop some people from acting immorally, but religion does not CAUSE them to act morally.

You cannot refute science with an ancient dark-ages religion! You are wrong about this, and I'd suggest you do some more research into it.

reply to post by logical7

I'l like to hear it after you have read Qur'an.

Why should I read Qur'an? Just so I can see your ex-texted verses are in there?

I understand that you keep saying that Islam is about peace and goodwill, but the FACTS ON THE GROUND deny that your religion STOPS criminal behavior. Just TODAY there is a thread here about a Moroccan young man who has gone underground for his atheist outspokenness. He is wanted for "shaking the Muslim's faith" WHICH is a Sharia-state Theocratic crime. NO THANK YOU.

Imad Eddin Habib is not a criminal—at least not under international law and international treaties on freedom of speech and conscience.

The reason why the Moroccan police is after him, is that he’s an outspoken atheist.

In the Islamic kingdom of Morocco, atheism itself is not a criminal offense. “Shaking the Muslim’s faith” is.
Under this vague designation, anyone openly criticizing Islam or promoting any other religion can be condemned to a prison term ranging from 6 months to 3 years (Christian missionaries are regularly expelled from the kingdom in virtue of this article.) In other words: when you live in Morocco, you can think whatever you want of religion, but you better keep it for yourself.

These past years, more and more Moroccans claimed their refusal of this religious omerta. The most mediatized case remains that of Kacem El Ghazali, an atheist activist who was granted political asylum in Switzerland, and recently testified before the UN against the persecution he suffered when he lived in Morocco.

I'd like you to read the books or at least the websites in the post above that I just sourced for you. I'm beginning to think you're brainwashed, I'm sorry to say. I like you, but I cannot support your premises. I can understand what you are saying, but I entirely disagree with your reasons for saying it. This young man in the linked OP has had to flee to stay out of jail, simply for speaking his mind openly.

You call that TOLERANCE? Please.

reply to post by eight bits

Most were.

"Most were" what?

reply to post by wildtimes

THIS IS SCIENCE. IT IS being PROVEN
that people - and some animals - are
"wired" for moral behavior or immoral
behavior.

Qur'an 6:
37. And they said: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say:
"Allah is certainly Able to send down a
sign, but most of them know not."
38. There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies
with its two wings, but are
communities like you. We have
neglected nothing in the Book, then
unto their Lord they (all) shall be
gathered.
39. Those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs,
revelations, etc.) are deaf and dumb in
darkness. Allah sends astray whom He
wills and He guides on the Straight
Path whom He wills.

What the research proved is already stated in a ancient dark age Book! The research just proves that there is a Creator, moral behaviour cannot come without it being designed that way.
The conclusions in the research are made to suit a viewpoint, "animals do it too, so its not due to religion or restricted to humans" what about "even animals do it, so it must be due to God who created all" ?

Ants bury their dead, they even communicate. Now whats the evolutionary benifit of burying a dead body?
We bury dead, ants too, how does that negate God? Or prove that morality is evolutionary? You think ants have a brain for the reasoning or ethics that make us bury our dead?
It all is Creation of a Creator, religion is nothing more than what animals do instinctively. A cat cleans itself a lot, even covers its poop, you think they got a lesson in hygiene? Humans do know it but they have the ability to ignore it and the religion steps in to show the correct ways and its upto people to choose, they may do some correct things(morals) instinctively but that does not mean that its their own virtue in any way. Thats same as a cat can't claim hygiene awareness as its own virtue!
As Qur'an says that signs are being shown all the times, but when someone chooses to 'believe' that their talents, morals etc are their own achievements(which is so obviously untrue) then they become like deaf and dumb and in darkness, locked within themselves and no way out unless God wills otherwise.

I just want a rule based on that instinctive goodness in humans but as they can go contrary to it and make it legal by majority vote, i see that defect in secular democracy.
Look at the perfect harmony of an ant colony when each ant does what it instinctively knows. Humans cannot do that by their own because they have the power to go against their good instincts.
So how do you suggest making all(at least majority) choose to be good and moral? And what you do to the ones who don't want to and if they become majority?

reply to post by wildtimes

Why should I read Qur'an? Just so I can see your ex-texted verses are in there?

I'd like you to read the books or at least the websites in the post above that I just sourced for you. I'm beginning to think you're brainwashed,

you should read Qur'an as a show of open mindedness and mutual respect
how can you judge a book without reading it fully? A few ex-texts are not enough. Is it forbidden for a deist to read holy books?
how can you request me to read books or websites and refuse to read a Book i suggest and call me brainwashed?
Am i brainwashed just because i refuse to agree with you?!!
You want to enlighten me?!! Why you assume you are enlightened? Isn't it self-superior attitude?

I am trying to find the book 'the God virus' and read it, you suggest a lot of material, i can't really read up all but i try, at least the free books and websites.
I do expect that you don't just want confirmers of your views and you welcome posters who challenge your views and you are ready to change your views if they are proven wrong or deficient.
I do appreciate that you acknowledged that your views about islam and muslims changed after interacting with me and other muslims here.
Its easy to dismiss ideas that you don't like as brainwashing, i'l like that you judge the ideas based on their merit and effectiveness rather than against your own strongly held beliefs.
Your beliefs/views have an equal possibility of being wrong as mine. They may seem very correct to you but lets keep them out while discussing here

reply to post by logical7

The conclusions in the research are made to suit a viewpoint, "animals do it too, so its not due to religion or restricted to humans" what about "even animals do it, so it must be due to God who created all" ?

The research is showing that people and the studied animals are born with morality. It is possible that is due to whatever Created us arranging for the brain's wiring.

I cannot and will not refute that, because I don't know "why" morality exists innately, but, in fact, it DOES exist innately.
Remember, I am not an Atheist, logical7. But my stance is firm, that a person who is never exposed to "religion" can be every bit as moral and good as someone raised with "religion."

My problem with "religion" is that it also has the ability to produce violence and hatred and intolerance in otherwise "normally" wired human beings.

I have lived a life based on my own integrity and desire to be helpful. It is part of who I am - and I'm fine with saying and accepting that it is a "Divine Spark" that dwells within me and is part of my soul - where that "Spark" came from is the unknowable reality, but I DO know that I had a loving mother and father, who nurtured and cared for me -- and parenting is the foremost 'teacher' for us.
Next to parenting, experience and observation molds a child into who they will be.

I believe that LOVE is that "Divine Spark". Religion IS NOT what instills LOVE into people; obviously religion just as readily instills violence, hatred and injustice. Therefore, religion is unnecessary for a person to be good and loving.

reply to post by logical7

I do expect that you don't just want confirmers of your views and you welcome posters who challenge your views and you are ready to change your views if they are proven wrong or deficient.
I do appreciate that you acknowledged that your views about islam and muslims changed after interacting with me and other muslims here.

Yes, I don't just want "confirmers" of my views. Without the posters who challenge my thinking this would be a very dull place and a pointless one for me to participate in.

Part of the reason I feel the way I do is that I can talk to PEOPLE who are ALIVE and glean more information from THEM than from outdated books. My interest is in WHY people believe what they do. I know enough about the world religions to make up my mind whether they are "good" people or not - and that is by watching how people behave and hearing their mindsets.

I prefer reading secular historical texts such as philosophy, comparative studies, and current scholarly or literary works by people who HAVE immersed themselves in those subjects far beyond what I have time left to do in my remaining years. You are much younger than I am, and have more time to explore the world. You have yet to experience marriage or parenting, and I suspect that when you've passed those "turning points" your views will also mature.

reply to post by wildtimes

But my stance is firm, that a person who is never exposed to "religion" can be every bit as moral and good as someone raised with "religion."

yes CAN BE
a person raised in a culture where human sacrifice is ok will believe it ultimately.
A child is born naturally pure and innocent with a good instincts and aversion for wrong things but then slowly the society/surroundings takes over and the child may or may not grow up with the instincts intact. Religion is just a reminder to go back to that goodness if the person has drifted.
Qur'an does that, its a reminder. Its not a Holy Book just for muslims, It directly addresses Mankind, Christians,Jews and even atheists.

I think you'l agree that people who have that natural goodness can rule the best.
Mahatma Gandhi said India needs a Dictator like Umar(r.a)
so you see, it does not matter if a dictator rules, if he is just and upright.
You want a secular system because you don't trust people, especially if they are religious, yet you say people are good by themselves. I guess only religion makes people bad while people killing for greed and political dominance is ok even if millions of my brothers and sisters die!
You have to be completely blind to not see who is doing the most damage, a bunch of thugs in caves or the secular governments going after them in the name of freedom and peace!
If you still think that its religion that makes people kill then it would be like you believe that a gun is responsible and not the shooter.
It makes me sad to see that even you have a double standard, when religion is abused to kill, you blame the religion but when secular rulers abuse power and kill millions, you blame individual. Why?

reply to post by logical7

It makes me sad to see that even you have a double standard, when religion is abused to kill, you blame the religion but when secular rulers abuse power and kill millions, you blame individual. Why?

It's not a double standard. My interest is in "motivation" and "behavior". The powerful, greed-driven war-mongers are immoral people just as much as a religion-motivated killer is immoral. How they "got that way" is what I'm digging to find. And so far, there are numerous causes. If not as many causes as there are people.

If any individual behaves immorally, I question "why" they do those things. Likewise, I study "why" people do good things. My method is by asking them and looking at their references/explanations.

reply to post by wildtimes

I know enough about the world religions to make up my mind

you know about history of religions and maybe a bit more about christianity, i am sorry to be blunt but you are very ignorant about islam, i hope you get a chance to visit a muslim country or at least meet some local muslims at your place. We muslims love our religion, and try to follow it to the best of our ability and the one who follows it more is more good and humble. You may disagree but it does not matter to me, i live among muslims and i do know what changes my religion has made in life of people.

I prefer reading secular historical texts

you don't have to read anything if you don't want to, but then maybe you should refrain from passing judgements on books you havn't read. I will object to your blanket judgements like "all Abrahamic religions.." , "all holy books.." etc because passing judgements while being ignorant does not suit a person like you.

You have
yet to experience marriage or
parenting, and I suspect that when
you've passed those "turning points" your views will also mature.

you mean i'l get enlightened?
when you do this, you are just a bit less annoying than when a evangelical christian says "i'l pray for you"!!
Lets discuss ideas Wildtimes and respect ideas of others as we respect our own.

reply to post by wildtimes

My interest is in "motivation" and "behavior". The powerful, greed-driven war-mongers are immoral people just as much as a religion-motivated killer is immoral.

that i agree to.

How they "got that way" is what I'm
digging to find. And so far, there are
numerous causes. If not as many
causes as there are people.

maybe it can be simplified and generalised by a quote by Imam Ghazali.
"If the first inward thought is not warded off, it will generate a desire, then the desire will generate a wish, and the wish will generate an intention, and the intention will generate the action, and the action will result in ruin and divine wrath. So evil must be cut off at its root, which is when it is simply a thought that crosses the mind, from which all the other things follow on."

in short its the thoughts and thoughts are molded by beliefs. You promote freedom of thought but now maybe you'l know that dwelling on wrong/cruel thoughts can lead to cruel actions.

In some parts of India, people who believe in reincarnation drown their female babies in milk and pray to gods to reincarnate her as a boy next time!!
Will you still believe in reincarnation, you shouldn't if you blame religion for immoral acts of people and if you continue to believe then you should stop blaming religions too otherwise its called double standards.

As you already know beliefs are powerful motivators, do you accept that non religious war mongers also act on whatever beliefs they have?