Introducing "Bibleman"! And a host of other kid-oriented indoctrination tools

reply to post by Witness123


I think you have a point about the evangelical influence waning (especially since the 2012 election), but I don't think it's fair to suggest that WildTimes is putting her position forth because she was traumatized personally by religion somehow (if that's what you're saying). I haven't heard anything from her that would suggest that. Religious influence in government in the recent past is a measurable phenomenon. But...

Election 2012 Marks the End of Evangelical Dominance in Politics

Ever since Ronald Reagan was elected president in 1980, evangelicals have been a powerful political force. Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority organization were credited in part with Reagan's election, having registered millions of evangelicals to vote. Their influence would only grow over the next 25 years: Evangelicals were instrumental in Reagan's reelection, the Republican Revolution of 1994, and both of George W. Bush's victories. But on November 6, 2012, their reign came to an end.

"I think this [election] was an evangelical disaster," Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, told NPR. He's right, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

The 2012 election showed us that the evangelicals cannot rule the government. Not if we all participate. The religious right was doing a pretty good job of influencing politics for nearly 30 years, but the majority of people are not interested in having a religious government and made that statement in 2012 (except for in the few enclaves that are still hoping to merge religion and state).

Evangelical Map 2008
Evangelical Map 2012

I don't think that's going to deter them in their fight, though. They are nothing if not steadfast in the "rightness" of their fight. They've got the mighty Lord behind them. Giving up isn't really an option. Their influence in passing Proposition 8 in California and the anti-abortion legislation in the states shows me the lengths they are willing to go to to get their religious agenda passed.

I'm very eager to hear the Supreme Court's ruling on the same-sex marriage cases in June. How the religious right responds to this will be interesting.

reply to post by Witness123

I think your argument for religious trauma syndrome is probably a symptom of someone who was traumatized by religion, in circumstances that are not generally common, and you hope to keep the issue relevant by envisioning your worst fear, that those who harmed you have incredible power and they want to institute a theocracy or some sort of tyranny.

Well, your thinking is understandable, but incorrect in my case. I'm a retired professional - I study these things as phenomena of group dynamics, psychology, and cultural, anthropological constructs.

Religious Trauma Syndrome is real. You can read my "religious" history in the link in my signature. I heard Nate Phelps speak weekend before last - THAT is a survivor of Religious Trauma, and he is DEFINITELY speaking from that point of view - to try to expose and stamp out the "tyranny" he lived under his father (the leader of the Westboro Baptist Church).

I get the feeling you have not taken the time to read enough of my posts to assess where I'm coming from - and it's not your "job" to do that, but if you would, you would see who I am and what I'm working for and what I'm speaking against - and not need to "analyze" me and presume to know my mind or my life.

There are MANY people who WERE traumatized by their religious upbringing - it's far more common than you are imagining, and they CONTINUE to be misled and feel guilt and shame, by the very people they trust to make them "feel better." They train their children that way, too, and so it continues.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Thank you for this data and your thoughts, BH.

I've started a new thread to discuss the Evangelical Far-Right's "Charismatic Domionists" movement. It's integral to the Bibleman thing - but from the angle of how they are working - still - to infiltrate government.
Active Theocrats: The New Apostolic Reformation and The Seven Mountain Domionists
They lost in 2012, but they certainly have not stopped trying.
I hope you'll participate over there, too. Thanks again for your support and priceless input here!

reply to post by wildtimes


It all depends on what you mean by trauma. If you're meaning whips and chambers to compress people in, no, that wasn't what I was thinking. You're a retired professional and I was mistaken. Some people pursue knowledge in these areas not because of their own suffering, although it is joked about that psychologists are always seeking some sort of answers for their own mental disorders, or that the anti-gay are really just closeted homosexuals themselves, which probably really have no basis in fact either of them.

I'm having a hard time understanding the trauma part though. I saw a kid from a family of Jehovah's Witnesses who had two broken arms. What does that mean to you? I wouldn't want to accuse anyone of anything but I was always under the impression that two broken arms in a child was almost always symptomatic of abuse.

And I would take your point that some of the JWs, Christian Science, Scientologists, or mainstream Christian denominations benefiting from geographical isolation along with concurrent isolation from the larger body of believing churches would definitely engage in behavior that could tend to terrorize or emotionally harm kids.
I don't see that happening in groups that are not isolated in those two regards.

Originally posted by wildtimes
First, I want to thank you wholeheartedly for taking the time to write out your thinking more fully.

Not a problem. We can disagree, but it's easier to discuss why if we understand what the other is thinking.

Originally posted by wildtimes
I'm glad to hear that your Baptist church is going the way of warmth, kindness, and all the "right" things. That's laudable and awesome. I was not terrorized in church by any means, but as a little girl all it took was the Creed to instill in me a sense of shame and worthlessness. That was all. JUST RECITING the Creed. No one told me I was worthless or going to hell (until I came on here and started talking about the things I care about!

)

Well, not terrorized is good, but your comments on what you call "the Creed" show that you did have some negative experience. Nothing taught in a good Bible church should make you feel worthless. The message is supposed to be one of love, because God loved us enough to die for us, no matter what we might have done, or do. I think most people realize they do things that aren't right on occasion. Being forgiven is a good thing, not a bad one. You do mention "reciting", though, which can lead to rote "learning", and isn't the best way to see the truth of God's Word.

Originally posted by wildtimes
So, you see, it's really and truly my profession to study these things and to address them. I am a social worker. MSW.
*snip*
I keep up with things, and pay attention, not because I WAS damaged (although I did have self-esteem issues in Adolescence, AND was mocked, bullied, and ridiculed by the "Mean Girls" in town - but that's another subject) as a kid with indoctrination, but because I CHOSE to study Children & Families.
*snip*I worked with those kids every day. They trusted me, and told me THEIR horror stories. I SAW their rage, their anxiety, their desperation and pain - every day.*snip*

DETERMINED to prevent the kind of parenting that lands kids in Alternative Schools, labeled with SB/ED, to prevent Jesus Camps and things like Bibleman from corrupting little kids' open, trusting, and totally vulnerable minds.

Oh, I can understand wanting to help people damaged by the bad churches. I have known people like that, who felt lost, fearful, and anything but loved. What they learned wasn't what should have been taught. False teaching is a real problem in churches today, and that WILL get worse. Some of it really is like something from a horror story.

I don't really know much of anything about that so-called "Jesus camp". The "documentary" was clearly biased, and without seeing firsthand what went on there, we can't really make any objective judgement. I do know a bit about regular Christian summer camps, and know there isn't any brainwashing or anything like that going on in those. As for Bibleman, again, that is simply a character that talks about Christian ideas, a belief in Jesus as Savior, and about the Bible. It's no more "indoctrination" than a child attending Sunday School. Children learning about faith and love isn't a bad thing. You still haven't explained exactly what you see as dangerous about Bibleman.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Now, as to what I see as closest to the "truth":
That we are all 'children' of 'the Universe' - that we cannot, and DO NOT know what, if any "Unmoved Mover" or "Creator Force" is. We can't even describe it, let alone speak to it.

Whatever it is, it is definitely not an old man or a pimped-out white guy handing out judgment from above the clouds, with Jesus on his right hand side watching every move we make.
*snip*
And as many have pointed out here and in other threads, the problem is with those Megachurch Pastors who are doing what they do TO GET RICH, and a LOT OF THEM KNOW that they are lying. They don't care. *snip*

Not mamabeth, not you two, not the truly loving Christians doing the right thing. ONLY the extremist militants, anywhere.

I disagree (you knew I would). We can know the Creator. We can speak to Him. I do daily. I don't know any Christian that thinks of God in the terms you use.

The megachurch guys out for money are a big problem. There are certainly a lot of those. Again, I am sure I dislike them a LOT more than you do.

I don't think I have ever met a "militant" Christian. I have met some in various churches that were confused, and that had some strange ideas, but even the weirdest of those wasn't "militant". I don't count nuts like the WBC (so NOT a church) in that list. They are a cult. Some of those lying, make no mistake, know they are, and they do care; they do it on purpose. There's been a lot of infiltration by the enemy into churches.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

As for Bibleman, again, that is simply a character that talks about Christian ideas, a belief in Jesus as Savior, and about the Bible. It's no more "indoctrination" than a child attending Sunday School. Children learning about faith and love isn't a bad thing. You still haven't explained exactly what you see as dangerous about Bibleman.

What's dangrous about it is the fact that he is busy "slaying" people and uses violence to "thwart" the "evil" characters. Jesus was not about slaying people, and kids know that other superheroes are not REAL. Jesus became a superhero himself, as did Robin Hood, King Arthur, etc. All of them lived historically (supposedly), but everyone agrees that the "legends" of Robin Hood, King Arthur, etc. are just that - legends that evolved out of one man's life.

In my opinion Jesus's "image" is legend as well, and should be treated as such, just like Zeus, Apollo, and all the other 'Gods' of the world.

Otherwise, thank you again for your post. I understand you better now, and appreciate you helping me to balance things in my mind.

Since you clarified yourself I am just saying I agree with you. I thought the thread was another "I'm a real smart person and religion is for sheep and all that blah blah" type.

reply to post by LastStarfighter


Thank you for taking the time to read my explanations and to understand what I'm talking about.

It was my bad for not reading it closely enough before the first response.