A Disturbing Essay on Islamic Scientific Development

reply to post by charles1952


OP, You appear to be conflating Arab and Muslim. They're overlapping groups, but all Arabs on Muslims. There are Christian Arabs in fact.

As another example of your strange claims/citations, I don't know of anyone who has ever claimed aqueducts in Spain were built originally by Muslim Arabs. Anyone who knows some history knows that it was the Romans who built them.

You write:

"Muslim architecture was actually taken from the Christian Byzantine Greeks."

Huh? You're saying the design of Mosques with their bulbous domes and and high, pointed towers are Byzantine in design? No they aren't. The Muslims did capture Constantinoble and converted the churches/cathedrals there to Mosques, but Arabic/Muslim architecture is not based primarily on it. Are you also saying the Taj Mahal is Byzantine in design?

You want to talk about a stupefying religion? Try Catholicism and certain Protestant sects. What religion was it that got on Galileo's case? Catholicism. What religions has been anti-evolution? Various Protestant sects -- as well as some sects of Catholicism and Islam. A lot of science has been done by atheists and agnostics too, so should atheist/agnostic culture be said to be more dynamic/less stupefying than Christian culture with respect to the advancement of science?

As for algebra, from what I can tell, it has foundations in the Middle East, Greece and India. Math, like all subjects, grows from its foundations and clearly there were Arabs (likely Muslims) who advanced it.

It seems this book your quoting from is just by some author who has a bigoted and/or racist agenda. And it seems that there are people at ATS as well as elsewhere who go out of their way to point an accusing finger of Muslim culture for this, that and the other thing. Is it a conservative religion that has some backwards notions? Sure. But to try to paint it as a religion that solely fosters ignorance and the stagnation of society is being disingenuous -- particularly when western religions have been guilty of some of the same.

Finally posters with some sense, I was starting to lose hope with ATS. I came to ATS to find people who are open minded who stick to facts, who deny ignorance. I wasn’t even sure if the members of the thread really believed what they said or if they were just trying to troll the thread. Those of you on page 4 have helped renew my faith in ATS.

I don’t say this because they agree any more with my opinion than previous posts, but because they came to the thread with rationality, not diluted truth of hate, bigotry and ignorance.

This is missing a point...Quaran says a scientist will always have a place in heaven, Allah or no Allah. Ever heard of Rosetta Stone? The " Muslims " translated the languages so our modern society could understand them. Read books upon books of Islamic Inventions they did whilst Europe was in the Dark ages. No place for scientists in the Bible, eh?

EDIT: I can see SOME sense in the points made.

The author must be a Jew. This is a racist propaganda piece based on distortions. Muslims are not just Arabs; they are Persians, whites, blacks, etc. You could say the same thing about Jews. Look what happened to Germany after it became infested with Jews. Look what is happening to the United States now that it is controlled by Jews.

reply to post by Adaluncatif and general comments

Dear Adaluncatif,

I was hoping we wouldn't become involved in extensive name calling.

The author must be a Jew. This is a racist propaganda piece based on distortions.

Quite an assumption. Are Jews, making up less than 1/2 % of the world's population, the only ones who are critical of Islam as it is showing itself today? And "racist?" What race? I think you picked the wrong name to call.

But, to more important matters.

I am taking the author to be saying that he believes Islam, especially being brought up in, and living in, an Islamic society, retards the expected progress in Science, and even in creative works. I don't think he is saying that no Muslim, anywhere in the world, will ever come up with an advance. But with over a billion and a half Muslims, five times the population and history of the US, Islam is holding Muslims back in these areas.

The charge is not being made that Muslims are bad people. I think the author is making a pretty good case that Islam retards the growth of progress in the Sciences and Creativity. There is some question if that is a bad thing.
After all, well-to-do Muslims can buy the results of scientific progress from the West. I know, personally, that the Saudis have an entire floor in a Rochester, Minnesota hotel in order to be near the Mayo Clinic if health care is needed. Why wouldn't they choose a hospital in Saudi Arabia? Nuclear weapons technology? That's available for purchase from China or Russia. Iran and North Korean transfers of nuclear and missile technology have been widely reported.

It seems Islam takes a dim view of Science and concentrates it's attention on Allah. That's looking like a very reasonable proposition.

Even in Islam's golden years, the case has been argued that the advances came from militarily conquered populations, especially from Assyria. Here's a letter written in 2001 that powerfully addresses that point.
www.ninevehsoft.com...

Dear adaluncatif, glad to have you here, but please consider a more substantial contribution.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Even in Islam's golden years, the case has been argued that the advances came from militarily conquered populations, especially from Assyria. Here's a letter written in 2001 that powerfully addresses that point. www.ninevehsoft.com...

The letter is written in response to this speech by CARLY FIORINA

I’ll end by telling a story. There was once a civilization that was
the greatest in the world. It was able to create a continental
super-state that stretched from ocean
to ocean, and from northern climes to
tropics and deserts. Within its
dominion lived hundreds of millions of
people, of different creeds and ethnic origins. One of its languages became the
universal language of much of the
world, the bridge between the
peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies
were made up of people of many
nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of peace and
prosperity that had never been
known. The reach of this civilization’s
commerce extended from Latin
America to China, and everywhere in
between. And this civilization was driven more
than anything, by invention. Its
architects designed buildings that
defied gravity. Its mathematicians
created the algebra and algorithms
that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of
encryption. Its doctors examined the
human body, and found new cures for
disease. Its astronomers looked into
the heavens, named the stars, and
paved the way for space travel and exploration. Its writers created thousands of
stories. Stories of courage, romance
and magic. Its poets wrote of love,
when others before them were too
steeped in fear to think of such things. When other nations were afraid of
ideas, this civilization thrived on them,
and kept them alive. When censors
threatened to wipe out knowledge
from past civilizations, this civilization
kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others. While modern Western civilization
shares many of these traits, the
civilization I’m talking about was the
Islamic world from the year 800 to
1600

www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.html
here is a part of the response letter.

This letter was sent to Carly Fiorina,
CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation,
in response to a speech given by her on September 26, 2001.
November 7, 2001
Carly Fiorina

Hewlett-Packard

3000 Hanover Street

Palo Alto,
CA 94304-1185

Dear Madame Fiorina:
It is with great interest that I read
your speech delivered on September
26, 2001, titled "Technology,
Business and Our way of Life: What's
Next" [sic]. I was particularly
interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/
Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a
non-Arab, Christian native of the
Middle East, whose ancestors reach
back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify
some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers
of unwittingly being drawn into the
Arabist/Islamist ideology, which
seeks to assimilate all cultures and
religions into the Arab/Islamic fold. I know you are a very busy woman,
but please find ten minutes to read
what follows, as it is a perspective that
you will not likely get from anywhere
else.

i wonder if she ever gave it the ten minutes.
Why can't she get what he wants to say, anywhere else?
Maybe because academics and historians agree with what she had originally said.

It makes me disappointed to see the ignorance and refusal to learn by some posters here.
You say Islam discourages scientific progress yet Islam went through a golden age when Islam was being followed completely.
So i think you may agree that for muslims to progress scientifically, we should practice Islam more strongly and kick out any impurities like nationalism, racism, greed that crept in from outside influences.

Originally posted by charles1952
I don't think Afghanistan was a thriving, modern nation before the US, or even the Soviets, arrived.

A fully wealthy and developed nation, no. But compared to today, at least Kabul was a glorious paradise.

Kabul, 1970: homayra2013.files.wordpress.com...

www.foreignpolicy.com...

pbs.twimg.com...:large

forums.pelicanparts.com...



Demonstration how civilization can regress centuries in 30 years. Given what happened later, even secular Communism was a better outcome. The traditional Shah was better stiill.

Religion imho is a mental illness, a part of the brain developed to protect the conscious mind from the realities of death.

As it turns out, it doesn't need to exist in a world of technology we are on the brink of vastly expanding human lifespan, stem cells, genetic engineering. The real today is with a healthy fear of death humanity can overcome it.

Technology and religion will not coexist

The religious center of the brain and conscious rationalization working with it serves to protect these belief systems/protect the ego. It would be an exceptionally rare person of substantial religion that will allow science and rationality to prevail in their minds. Too much Ego at stake.

reply to post by mideast


This is a great thread. I will be reading the entire thing tonight.

But i want to say that having the user 'mideast" at ATS is outstanding.

reply to post by mideast


I do not hate Muslims but Islam is incompatible with Christianity and being a Christian I am acutely aware of 4000 Christians beheaded for refusing to convert to Islam, the beheading of men born into Islam whom hear the call of Christianity and the stoning of young teenage girl's which for me being a Christian man whom must tell you Christ said there is no difference between a man and woman in the resurrection you are neither taken nor given in marriage and have a heavenly body like the angels, I am acutely aware of a religion that relies on indoctrination and threat of death upon leaving it to keep it's ranks in order and that by it's nature it would never tolerate free thought or speech, though I have met many decent Muslims but there regard as far as women is concerned is wrong, it is not that which goes into a man that defiles him but that which comes out of him, If a man is so evil that just looking upon a beautiful woman makes him sin then that evil is of his nature and she is not guilty of his thought, why hide a woman under so much material, A man does not light a lamp only to hide it under a bushel, how can you combat evil if you hide from it.

Yes I know it is a two way street and the Christian world (But not true Christians) have waged war but it was not they whom struck the first blow and the holy places of Christendom were sacked and stolen by Islam, How can you expect us to believe a man whom married a six year old child Ayesha the rose of Damascus and later on expressed an interest in a little girl whom had not yet learned to walk, HE whom lives by the sword shall die by the sword and did not Muhammad say He lived by the spear, the old testament prophet's and new testament apostles all received the holy ghost but Muhammad heard only the voice of someone calling themselves Gabriel.

How many young girls in Afghanistan whom wanted just to be doctors or dentists were killed by the Taliban and did not Muhammad tell his followers that the Persian woman would lie on there backs with there legs apart so the Arab's could rape them, in Christianity we believe we go to do work for god and will receive the waters of life and a new spirit but Islam offers a garden and 40 virgins, hmm sounds like the safari park chimp enclosure with the alpha male and 40 female's - were does he go (You know when they are moody) is there no escape.

Nearly 600 year's before the birth of Islam a Christian mystic called St John of Patmos wrote the apocalyptic text the revelation, it is the last book in the new testament and talks of the time of the beast, all whom follow him must receive his mark in there right hand, on the hajj Muslims are expected to circle the khabba and touch the black stone on it's corner when they return home the pass the blessing as they perceive it to there family and friends by touching hand's. Yes some Christian sect's are just as indoctrinated but any indoctrination will limit the ability of the mind to reach outside that structure of thought and prevent it from grasping reality that is not allowed under it's religious stricture, as somebody else has also said here preventing half the population from learning is not good for science or culture,.

And I thought I could stay out of this thread. Silly me.

bigfatfurrytexan

This is a great thread. I will be reading the entire thing tonight.

But I want to say that having the user 'mideast" at ATS is outstanding.

I couldn't agree more completely. Mideast is a valuable asset, a huge help to this thread. Another poster has pointed out why this thread is working. It's because of the posters themselves. This is a great group which is treating the subject, and each other, well.

penninja

Religion imho is a mental illness, a part of the brain developed to protect the conscious mind from the realities of death.

I'm not sure that bradening this topic by replacing "Islam" with "all religion" is helpful. Certainly we can see less emphasis on science in Islam and Islamic countries than in Christian or Jewish ones. I was powerfully swayed by the Nobel Prize in Science figures.

Technology and religion will not coexist

Do you think that Islam is taking the side of religion in your dichotomy, and therefore intentionally shutting out technology?

The real today is with a healthy fear of death humanity can overcome it.

For as long into the future as anyone can see now, the death rate for the individual human will be 1. Do you think we will be immortal? If Islam chooses religion over technology, does that mean they are delaying our longer lifespans and should switch to a more scientific model?

mbkennel
Here's the sub-headline of the Foreign Policy article you referenced.

Record stores, Mad Men furniture, and pencil skirts -- when Kabul had rock 'n' roll, not rockets.

The pictures in the article showed uncovered women with bare legs in a music store, apparently buying rock and roll music. That must be a different kind of Islam, one not much practiced today. It looked really good back then. Have we gone forward because of Islam, or backward? (I know either side could be argued, but I admit to having a preference.)

Logical7
I'm having a little difficulty following you. The case that the author attempts to make is that the golden years of Islam came about through taking the scientific thinkers and inventions from conquered territories or trade partners, and declaring them their own.

You say Islam discourages scientific progress yet Islam went through a golden age when Islam was being followed completely.

Something that I don't understand, and would like someone to explain, is what stopped those golden years? Why did Islamic science just seem to stop? There wasn't any disease that killed everyone off, why did it happen? The European "dark" ages came about from the destruction of the Roman Empire and the ensuing battles for power and domination by various tribes. But what stopped Islamic progress in science?

So i think you may agree that for muslims to progress scientifically, we should practice Islam more strongly and kick out any impurities like nationalism, racism, greed that crept in from outside influences.

I don't think I do agree, especially if Islam's problem is seen as corrupting influences from the outside. Will Islam build a giant wall? Shut down the Internet? Will Muslims become better, more pure, more scientific, if they are kept away from the world?

MrInquisitive

OP, You appear to be conflating Arab and Muslim. They're overlapping groups, but all Arabs on Muslims. There are Christian Arabs in fact.

You're quite right, I may be causing confusion, my sincere apologies.

My understanding of the Author's position is that Arabs do much better when they are removed from Islam as a societal governing system.

You want to talk about a stupefying religion? Try Catholicism and certain Protestant sects. What religion was it that got on Galileo's case? Catholicism.

Please forgive any harshness I might exhibit, but this charge is getting boring. You do know that at the time of Galileo's case, the vast majority of the scientists of the day went against him. They saw him as being unscientific. Additionally, the Church has apologized several times for that error. Aren't there any other cases? That's the only one that seems to keep cropping up over 2000 years. I have never seen people explaining why the vast number of foundational scientific thinkers have been Catholic.

With respect,
Charles1952

Old memory could be wrong but I believe I remember reading that before assassinating them became a sport for some, the Palestinians had the highest per capita number of PHd in the world. Unless we're talking Christian or Jewish Palestinians it would seem to poke a big hole in your theory, no?

reply to post by Puck 22

Dear Puck22,

I throw myself on your mercy.

Old memory could be wrong but I believe I remember reading that before assassinating them became a sport for some, the Palestinians had the highest per capita number of PHd in the world. Unless we're talking Christian or Jewish Palestinians it would seem to poke a big hole in your theory, no?

Once again, I haven't a clue, no information, no opinion, I've got nothing for you.

Now that I've admitted all that, let me wander for a bit. I understand that there are a large number of Palestinians spread throughout the world. In fact, fewer than 40% of Palestinians live in Palestinian territories.

RAMALLAH – The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) Monday said that there were 11.6 million Palestinians in the world at the end of 2012.

PCBS said in a press release that about 4.4 million Palestinians are living in the Palestinian territories, of which 2.7 million are in the West Bank and 1.7 million in the Gaza Strip.

www.saudigazette.com.sa...
I'm just not prepared to go into the effects of a surrounding culture on a Palestinian. I don't know.

But you raise an interesting point in bringing up Ph.D.s I know that in America, it's easy to get a nonsense Ph.D., and the author was specifically looking at science, but I'm willing to explore different measurements.

I went to the website for the World Bank, which collects more statistics than I expected. I looked in their Science and Technology section: data.worldbank.org...

One figure they offer up is what percentage of a regions' exports are high technology. The world's average is 18%. The leading region, not surprisingly, is East Asia and the Pacific at 26%. The European Union is at 16%. OECD members are at 17%, Latin America and the Carribean has 11%, Sub-Saharan Africa is at 3%. The Arab world? 1%.

Another interesting figure is the number of Scientific and Technical Journal articles per country from 2008-2012. data.worldbank.org...

Add up the results for all of the following countries:
Afghanistan
Bahrain
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Kuwait
Pakistan
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Syria
UAE
The total is 11,046. That is not quite twice the number for Israel alone at 6,304.
The UK? 45,649
The US? 208,601

I'm sorry that I couldn't directly address Palestinian Ph.D.s, but I hope this is a little extra to chew on.

With respect,
Charles1952

I find it rather contrasting with this essay the fact that most muslims I have met are either engineers or (medical) doctors. Though perhaps not so contrary, few are physicists, etc., or have any interest in such professions. But that seems to stem more from the fact that they strive (and are often pressured by others in the community) for "success", a well paying job.

And somebody used the example of a $50 lab as opposed to a huge, fancy lab, and the results that may be reaped from each, yet perhaps it's not Islam itself that poses as the cheap lab, but rather the fact that, for example in Iran, the religious presence in the government is more used as an excuse for corruption (as in, let's pass a fatwa that makes no sense but will pay us in big $$ or place us at a political/social advantage), thus it isn't the religion itself that is a suppressant, rather it is being used as a puppet for some greedy individuals to reach their own end.

Though to contradict myself, I'll quote Ernest Rtherford: "we've got no money, so we've got to think". Because I'm an oxymoron.

But I for one quite enjoy my science magazines, Sci fi, and speculations on the universe, and do know many Muslims who nurse a healthy interest in the nature of the universe.

reply to post by charles1952


Have you looked at modern society lately?

Take a look at the US and UK, they devolved a long time ago without religion so your piece is not so much controversial as it is ignorant.

I am a man of science and of religion however according to some Atheists this is a paradox and not possible to which I say: "here's another paradox, it's my baseball bat".

Have you read up about Constantinople and the renaissance era before the mongols destroyed a vast resource of knowledge? There was no one group in fact people of different religions and cultures traded in a what is a rare commodity now, knowledge (we work with information in the 21st century but there is no knowledge behind it).

No one religion ever claimed anything however they each had an influence on society and the acquisition of knowledge.

Science allows me to focus, religion allows me to expand my perspective.

Peace.

reply to post by charles1952

Dear Charles
first I would like to highlight again for the ATSers that the aim of monotheistic religions, is just monotheism. worshiping the only God.
Christianity, Judaism and Islam are neither races nor nationalities. muslim does not mean arab, Jew does not mean semitic and Christian does not mean western.
monopolizing science is an insult to science world. this is usual that special fields of science are recognized by the name of some individual scientists. it is not odd. not at all.
Kharazmi Festival is a well known scientific festival in Iran, and no one asks whether he or his father was Zoroastrian or Muslim.
but there is a point, if Kharazmi had been a Zoroastrian, his name would have been something like Anush, Arya,... not Mohammad ! however, even, Zoroastrian name does not show the religion exactly. because such names are widespread in Iran, even now.
USA, is a good example of a place where people from many nations, are working there and study or collaborating in scientific studies. Science itself is a premier point for most of scientists.
The viewpoint of the article is scratching the face of Monotheism and Science. It is full of ignorance.
Regards

Originally posted by charles1952

Personally, I am grateful to elements of Muslim cultures from throughout history. I am lately especially grateful that they held on to the Plato long enough for the Western dark age to pass.

Keeping Plato is a wonderful thing. I'd like some help though, I thought the texts were preserved in monasteries by the Church. Please, fill me in on my history.

Texts may have been preserved in monasteries, but in Persia, in particular, the teaching was kept alive and allowed to grow. In Europe, by contrast, much of Platonic thought was rejected and repackaged as Neo-Platoism. What we then find, circa 7th to 8th century, is the flow of ideas and concepts, as a continuity of the highest intellectualism of the Ancient Greek world flowing back into Europe via the French/Islamic trade ports. Mysticism, love poetry, the Troubadour Tradition, popular literature, scientific treatise all re-entered Dark Ages Europe and began to illuminate it once more via this route.

To clarify another misconception, of the author of the essay, much of the knowledge that Islam acquired from the Greeks came about through exchange. Prominent Greek families sent their sons to be educated by Persians, and vice versa. Teachers travelled extensively between the empires, for discourse. Intellectualism is generally not concerned by territorialism, though it may become bound and constrained by them. The Persians continued to learn for longer than the Ancient Greeks because they were permitted to do so, until their own leadership felt threatened by it's intellectuals. And so on and so forth. Controlling the flow of ideas, destroying that which you don't understand, is the hall mark of fundamentalism, religious and political. Christian leaders do it, and unsurprisingly, so do Muslim leaders, as did Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, and any other despotic power that you can pluck from history.

The essay writer may want to attribute 'finds' to others, and that is his perogative, but the role of the Islamic world in furthering science and the arts, is undeniable. In Europe those ideas stagnated, and were rejected or guarded by the church and state, without the infuence of the Islamic world, we would be sorely lacking in many respects. In the world of science and technology, those ideas transmitted back to us from Islam were initially rejected, suppressed and concealed, often denounced as heretical or tainted by the Infidel, but those works were still preserved, eventually translated, and formed the basis of what would be the Renaissance and the Enlightenment several hundred years later. Ideas travel a route of swings and roundabouts throughut history, everyone plays their part, and each part is important. Diminishing the role of Islam in that process is petty and small minded.

Originally posted by christina-66
It's already been said on this thread - all religion halts progress. I have no doubts whatsoever that Christianity's expansion in the west held us back for over a thousand years. For goodness sake, Galileo was kept under house arrest (for 15 years until he died) for daring to claim that the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe. Christianity also has ridiculous doctrines like 'Papal Infallibility' - which, in recent times, meant that Pope Jean Paul II could, in all seriousness tell the Christian population of Africa that a condom would not save them from AIDS, which led to an epidemic. Ridiculous.

The essay in the op is merely thinly disguised prejudice and bigotry pretending to be founded on intellectualism. It's not - it's an emotive piece designed to engender a divisive sense of superiority.

edit on 22-4-2013 by christina-66 because: (no reason given)

With respect, please trace the history of Protestantism and western growth, education and health.

Not ALL RELIGIONS are run by the papacy ......and the Doppler effect indicates....ahhhh, dont worry about it.
Its your choice.

Originally posted by freedomSlave
reply to post by charles1952

 

I find everyday people of the Islam faith I have met are the most genuine helpful people I have ever met . of all the religions out there Islam I actually do have the most respect for . I am just a white guy from a multicultural city .

Out of interest, do you make a habit of asking people their religion, or going by your comment of being a white guy are you assuming people of a certain skin colour therefore belong to a certain faith?

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by buster2010

 

Dear buster2010,

I hope you don't mind if I intrude on your conversation with LadyGreenEyes.

And what is the main reason behind a lot of the deplorable conditions? It couldn't be because many of these places have been bombed to death over the last few decades?

I believe the point of the essay was dealing with Islamic scientific advancements over long periods of time. Of course, being bombed doesn't do your infrastructure any good, but even before the fighting were there Apple stores, cell phone towers, community colleges, and sewage treatment plants all over the countryside? I don't think Afghanistan was a thriving, modern nation before the US, or even the Soviets, arrived.

I'm still stunned by the idea that there has been only one Muslim who has ever won a Nobel Prize in any of the Sciences. That seems to me to be the equivalent of flipping "heads" 50 times in a row. It just can't be chance.

With respect,
Charles1952

edit on 21-4-2013 by charles1952 because: Spelling

Interesting thread, but Charles, you surprise me. Nobel awards are the result of nominations the Nobel Committee sends to various institutions. Who is to say that those institutions are pre-disposed to vote for a Muslim? The Nobel Committee has typically given awards to Western - if not mainly European nominees, which would certainly have had a bearing up until relatively recently.

I find your comment about Jewish people being over represented in scientific achievements strange - do you really believe that your faith is the only (or even the key) driver in your ability or willingness to achieve?




ETA, having just looked on Wiki, no black person has won a Nobel award in the sciences, unless you include economics which if you did it makes a grand total of one.... what does that do to the logic of the essay you link to in the OP?