A Disturbing Essay on Islamic Scientific Development

i wonder if this proposed effect is possibly a function of devaluation and suppression of women in their culture. it has to have some overall negative effect to have such a lop-sided representation of half their population. a culture run entirely on testosterone.

You are correct on all count's, it is interesting to note that even Afghanistan a thorn in the proverbial side was a place of learning and culture with many Buddhist school's and several kingdom's, most of what the Muslim society achieved in Spain was because they were actually a very tolerant society with Islamic, Jewish and Christian citizen's that created a thriving and cosmopolitan culture.

The Romans were the great adaptors taking on any good ideas. They even allowed some of the conquered people to keep their gods (as long as they could be matched to a Roman god).

All religions have some time in the past used their power as a means of control. But nowadays, with internet and freedom of travel, there are only a few countries that can truely suppress that freedom. So it is down to specific smaller group of "fundamentalist", who believe every single literal word they are told without question or debate. Many of the moderates (in all religions) will read the text and understand the meaning for the modern world.

Now if a religion does not offer the same rights to women, they are statistically speaking missing out on 50% of the science breakthroughs.

reply to post by totallackey


no, no, no, no, no, no, no...!!!

YHWH is most certainly NOT 'allah', because 'allah' claims for himself the title of 'Greatest Deceiver'.

In Judaism & Christianity, God is specifically referenced as being incapable of lying, for He is the very light of truth.

Lying/ deceiving is known and referenced in Biblical scripture as the work of the rebel archangel who neglected his duty & became the fallen usurper, the Devil. He is the one referred to by the Lord as coming ONLY to kill, steal & destroy. Which pretty much sums up the demands of 'allah' that were placed upon his followers through the chosen vessel of a dishonorable-in-battle, pedophile, dictatorial warlord, an abuser of women and a murderer of dissenters - Mohammed.

The 'prophet' couldn't even discern whether the 'angel' who dictated the Koran was from the true God, or was in fact Satan himself, disguised (precisely as predicted by the Christian apostles - as an 'angel of light'.)

The Biblical YHWH sums up His command to the children of Israel as follows:

What more does YHWH ask of you, but that you do justice, love mercy & walk humbly before your God

'allah's' commandments are demonic in the main, with a few borrowed expressions of goodness thrown in to perpetuate the deception. Due to the principle of 'taqqiyah', Muslims are allowed to deceive, to stab in the back, and to murder/defraud & displace/subjugate those who had been duped into believing they had an alliance - because 'Allah, the Greatest Deceiver' has commanded his followers to be dishonest, diabolical bearers of false witness, via 'taqqiyah' - thus Allah is philosophically in total opposition to the Biblical YHWH, who made two of 'The Ten' to specifically state:

Do not lie...

Do not bear false witness...

I am disgusted every time I see a Muslim apologist propagating lies about my God.

YHWH is NOT the same as that despicable perverse deceiver (though due to the abomination that is taqqiyah, you could lie and keep on lying even if you knew the truth of the dissimilitude between YHWH and 'allah', because 'allah' allegedly gives you bonus points (more virgins to rape in that entirely carnal 'paradise' I suppose) the more infidels you destroy by murder, theft or deception.

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment

In Judaism & Christianity, God is specifically referenced as being incapable of lying, for He is the very light of truth.

Is this the same God from the Book of Isaiah?

'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.'

-Isaiah 45:7

reply to post by BlueMule


A better translation is probably the NLT:

I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

The context of the statement is important. YHWH is describing His sovereignty over the affairs of Mankind, stating that even the darkness of 'bad times' is subject to his enabling in order for it to prosper. The permission of evil in the affairs of Mankind is being referenced with regards to the judgment of God for the iniquity of a people or person. In our society, when someone commits a crime, we punish them with some measure of justice. If a society as a whole rebels against 'goodness', which is the light of truth & decency, allowing a degradation in standards of morality & an increase in wrong actions (known to be wrong as the result of innate conscience, derived from the knowledge of good & evil), and if this rebellion persists until only 'relative morality' remains (right & wrong become relative values, no longer absolutes - right for me, wrong for you, etc) then the cosmic laws of justice will take over where men have failed. This is the meaning of 'make the darkness...send... bad times'

There is little in the way of difference between concept of 'the judgment & favour of God' as it applies to the affairs of Mankind/ individual people (per Judeo-Christian traditions), and the concept of 'the law of karma' per Buddhism. Karma as a doctrine didn't come about by revelation, but by simple observation & meditative philosophical reflection. The laws of karma (or the judgment/ favour of God) are referred to with the metaphor of agricultural techniques of sowing & reaping for a very good reason. You sow seed, under reasonable conditions, and you will reap a harvest in return for your labours. You don't always get the yield you'd hoped for, simply because there are random events that interfere with the life cycle of the crop. But the one thing that's definite is that if you sow wheat, your harvest isn't going to be barley.

Lay down some good actions on the universal stage, and you will expect in return, under favourable conditions, a decent return of peace & contentment, love & spiritual blessing, and perhaps some decent material blessing also. Lay down some actions of wickedness, and forces are unleashed that will bring you to ruin if you don't change the path you are on. That is justice in operation, but the actual outworking of the dynamic of karma, or the judgement/favour of God is so unbelievably complex to a human mind that we are incapable of processing every variable, every cause & effect. Even atheists quote 'you reap what you sow', and 'pride comes before a fall' as regards the issue of justice eventually overtaking the evildoer in the absence of immediately obvious justice within the world of men. With regards my original comment containing the quote:

Do justice, love mercy & walk humbly before your God

That is a simmering down to basics as regards the Universal Law Code. If you as a person, group of people, or government simply 'do your best', to ensure appropriate justice is measured (according to righteous discernment), but also to ensure that wherever possible mercy is encouraged and treasured - for its own sake as a gracious 'Human potential' attribute, and also as a measure of civility that can be used to chart the advancement of society, and also to hold a simple, childlike faith, trusting in the fact that above all, and in the end, when all is said and done, God is seated above the mechanics of the Cosmos, and will eventually balance out all things (The meek will inherit the Earth). He is to be sought by Mankind in order for higher destinies to be manifest, and a right relationship with Him will balance out your own life in ways that you cannot imagine until it becomes a reality for you personally..


God is merciful - over & above all, He is merciful. That is emphasised in Christian theology most specifically, though it is espoused in Judaism too. Islam claims that 'allah' is the ''most merciful'' simply because the one who formed that religion wanted people to believe that he was the same God as the one who called the Hebrews to deliver His laws & promises to the world, the one who sent the Messiah to redeem what is lost.

God is just, and by the scripture that you quoted, it is (in context) revealed only that He is the one who allows evil to occur on occasion, in order to chastise & call to repentance, as is explained many times in scripture. He must also enable the prospect of evil, because if we were all forced to be good, we would not be free. We need the choice to turn away from light into darkness, otherwise the light of life would not be real, it would be sterile - we would be automatons instead of free entities

reply to post by charles1952


Hey Charles, sorry for the late reply just noticed your post. My point was that there is an obvious propaganda war against Islam, which is a religion with a set of ideals. Many of these ideals are shared amongst other religions; I think it is wrong to condemn specifically Islam for a lack of scientific development, or Islamic societies. There are many factors that contribute to their lack of recent advancement; ongoing wars, embargos, resources, politics.

I think of it like DRPK, many people look at them and say wow, what a horrible government, no progression, no food, no industry. This I would imagine is very difficult for a state with never ending embargos that isolate it, and prevent it from trading.

I'm sorry my message came out as atheists are smarter than those who subscribe to a religion. I do not believe this, in fact my point was there is always an exception in any group, and hidden factors. But I do believe that a far too large amount of the members of these churches are blindly following philosophies from millennia ago, they are not receptive to the idea we have a deeper understanding about the world around us. This I find as stupidity, they are not willing to suppress their ignorance and expand their views, this I believe is a factor that is pulling the world down.

I would like to add, that I did state that there is always an exception in any group, and I do know that all religions have contributed to society in some form, including individual members, but like any group there are a small amount of leaders, those who think for themselves, and an outrageously large group of followers, those who do not question.

I think human advancement has reached a point where most religions are counterproductive, even though earlier in history I can see how they would have been a positive contribution, but I think it is ridiculous to just attack Islam, without attacking all forms of religion that have at one point held back scientific development. While I am not trying to defend Islam, I think it’s foolish to just single it out because that’s the trend at the moment. I’m not sure I inferred your message correctly, but I was not attacking Christianity as if it was worse than Islam while defending Islam, I was simply trying to play devil’s advocate and say Islam is no worse or better than the others, I have equal disgust for them all.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


The concept of unjust persecution is also properly handled in Judeo-Christian scripture, many, many times. The book of Psalms covers a great amount of the sort of thinking that people entertain when they are experiencing the 'fiery trials' which seem totally unjust. By acknowledging that God is able to mete out justice where the justice of Men has failed, a person can receive comfort knowing that God is on their side, and desires equity between the members of the fellowship of Mankind.

Taking care of the poor and despised of society was emphasised as a duty for the Jew, and later also for the Christian - on both counts, particular emphasis was placed on caring for vulnerable women & orphaned children.. The trouble with the concept of justice outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition is that it is not properly understood - the assumptions within Hinduism as regards caste are obvious. Born into an 'untouchable' caste? You must have been a murderer in your past life, or perhaps an animal that leveled up somehow. Same deal in Buddhism, though a bit more gracious.

Islam? Different racial groups are assigned monetary worth in descending gradations from followers of Mohammed. Women are treated worse than animals in many cases - women who try to claim equity of rights in a Muslim society are ostracised or attacked, even killed, simply for desiring an education, or for wanting to run a business to support her disabled husband, etc. Children as young as nine can be forcibly married off to some 80 year old paedophile who then rapes the child repeatedly until she goes though puberty & begins to bear children as a result of this perpetual abuse. All this is counted as lawful, because the 'super-dreamy-awesome' Mohammed did it too.

reply to post by BlueMule


God in Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism in many important ways. Most obviously - and I'm speaking strictly from the mainstream Sunni perspective, which bases itself chiefly on the theological writings of Al Ghazali - Allah is extra-rational, and he is not bound, as he is in Judaism/Christianity, by the workings of his creation.

In the book of Genesis we hear of Abraham questioning Gods justice. What does that imply? What is the meaning of this piece of narrative? It means that Abraham was able to deduce from earthly events, from man's own sense of right and wrong, derived from reason, how God should be acting. As such, God acknowledges Abrahams moral insight into what constitutes justice, in effect, God binds himself to the rules of His creation.

Amazingly, this is not how Islamic epistemology works. In fact, one could almost argue that Islam doesn't even have a working theory of knowledge, since Allah encompasses everything, and everything is simultaneously nullified by Allah's totality, logically then, not even an arrow shot towards a target need hit the target. In Al Ghazalis view, it is only Gods will - and not any law, or rule established by God - that causes the arrow to hit the target. Following this logic, Islam disavows the existence of secondary causes.

This wasn't always the case. In Islams 'glory days', in the 10th-12th centuries, when the philosophy of Aristotle, the Mutzalim, and Averroes encouraged scientific inquiry, Islam was quite different. But since Al Ghazali, Islam has followed another path - a path that has led to civilizational degradation.

Put in another way, in the 11th century, Islam was the leading civilization in the world, ahead of both Europe and China. But then they started deriding the value of logic and reason, and with that, they lost their lead.

As for the verse you quoted, that's simply logic. If God is Good, as He is believed to be by the writers of the Hebrew scriptures, then even evil, which seemingly transcends our finite understanding, has a reason for its existence in some extra dimensional reality. As such, even though God is responsible for what human beings perceive as evil, it's a central tenet that He is all good.

A primary distinction made in Judaism is the absolute chasm between God and man. Man can never encompass the intricate workings of creation. Our minds cannot handle it - at least not in a linear way. This means that God is good, although evil happens - hes also responsible for it. However, man has free will, and despite the existence of evil, man should choose the good.

It's all sound philosophy, if you ask me.

reply to post by coruptedsector2

I do believe that a far too large amount of the members of these churches are blindly following philosophies from millennia ago, they are not receptive to the idea we have a deeper understanding about the world around us. This I find as stupidity, they are not willing to suppress their ignorance and expand their views, this I believe is a factor that is pulling the world down.

You say you aren't criticising people who believe a religion as being dimwitted, but then you roll straight into the above sentences.

What about all the freemasons who hold positions of power in the world around us, just behind the facade of the bricks and mortar of our 'awesome and clever modern society'..? Do you not realise that they hold to beliefs that are actually older than Christianity by a country mile..??

Just because something is old, does not mean it has lost its worth. In fact, by virtue of its having survived all the events of the past two millennia, one might actually be convinced that there must be something to it, don't you think? **

I'm a modern man, with a keen mind & a love of science. However, I believe in Christ, I've read the Bible cover to cover, I've been blessed with all sorts of wonders - in the light of understanding, it becomes clear precisely what a 'magical' text this collection of manuscripts really is.

All cosmic law & all His grace - within its covers, find your place.


It seems 'old', but the human condition is timeless, and thus an 'old book' is equally likely to hold the Truth. I know from personal experience & observation of the world around me that as regards the heart of Man, the Bible is much more relevant than modern speculations based in our young sciences.


** EDIT TO ADD ** I must just state that Islam has prospered and survived not because it is 'good', but because it is brutal and totalitarian. In Islam, there is no free path - you conform, or risk the consequences. There are essentially two denominations of Islam, a testament to how rigid a 'total-life system' it actually is. Brutally oppressive.

Conversely, Christianity has flourished and experienced 'revival' many, many times, when the people came back to the text, and took hold of the promises of God as regards blessing of miraculous nature if they were to seek Him with all their hearts. The flexibility & adaptability of Christianity is evidenced by such a wide range of denominations, yet all maintaining more or less the same major constants of theology - minor quibbles a long time ago are usually what led to a breakaway group forming a new 'version', albeit almost identical and generally equally pleasant & society enhancing.

Dear posters,

I am in awe of your contributions to this thread. I would be honored to meet any of you for what I am sure would be a fascinating discussion. I can't thank you enough for the maturity, thought, and insight you've brought here. I wish all ATSers could see this discussion.

I don't think I can keep up with all the comments, but before I retire to the observer's role. I would like to provide a little information and then post something else from the essay that no one has brought up for discussion.

The Nobel Prizes are not, strictly speaking, competed for. Academics just do their work, discovering things left and right and presenting their results. The Prize committee sends out three thousand nomination forms to governments and scholars around the world. The committee then considers those nominations in secret. (As an aside, nine women have received a Science prize, I suspect they were not Islamic.)

I found a listing of Nobel Prizes in the Sciences and Economics, they have been arranged in order of the number of prizes per capita. The first fifteen in order are:

Saint Lucia
Luxembourg
Switzerland
Austria
Denmark

Sweden
UK
Norway
Netherlands
Germany

US
Cyprus
Hungary
Israel
New Zealand

Egypt is ranked #44
Pakistan is ranked #46
India is ranked #48
China is ranked #49 which is the bottom of the list
en.wikipedia.org...

Also from the essay, the author takes a critical look at creativity in cultures and makes this rather broad brush statement (but still worth thinking about):

Whatever the faults of Communism, at least Marxists respected science, and could produce it. Maybe not at the same rates of the Capitalist West, but at some rate. Whatever the faults of Catholicism, it respected intellect, and could produce world -class universities The Jesuits educated whole nations, maybe with a bias; but one could think logically after a Jesuit education. Whatever the faults of Protestant fundamentalism, it allowed for enough dissent that a divergence of thought and creativity could prosper. Buddhism and Hinduism have their flaws; but they could produce math, art, and music. Even enslaved pagan Africans could create music and art. Jazz and Samba came out of the slave experience.

But Islamic puritans now want to ban music. Islam bans representational art as idolatry. It covers up women in burqas. Whatever is beautiful, it condemns as blasphemous and idolatrous.

I think his last statement is too harsh, I'm sure Muslims produce things which they believe are beautiful. Still, in my fairly uneducated mind, I have trouble coming up with things which Islam has produced for the world. (Yes, I'm skipping over the Golden Years of Islam roughly 900 years ago. There is some question about those things, but I'd like to skip it for now.)

As I said, you are contributing far more than I could, so unless someone wants to ask me something, I think I'll watch for awhile. Many thanks. I wish you Love and Peace.

With respect,
Charles1952

My understanding of history is that purist Islamic states have tended to be restrictive and regressive; Islam's
golden era, from the Omar Khayam times, were under more secular and progressive states.

Isaac Newton and Gregor Mendel (among many others) were devout Christians and great scientists.

How many of us would like to be a tourist in an Islamic country today? No thanks.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


First off, I never used the word criticize, criticizing, or critical. In fact I stated that there are members of religion who do contribute. Who I am concerned with are those who blindly follow religion as the end all be all. Do I think this is dimwitted? Absolutely. Religion was a philosophy that helped to explain the natural world around us, because of our lack of understanding at the time. Over time thanks to science, you know; experiment, observe, repeat. We have a deeper understanding, one that is more accurate but also conflicting with religion centuries old. If you want to believe a philosophy from a time when humans had lesser understanding than now, go ahead, do I think this is “dimwitted”? Yes.

As far as freemasons go and our grand society, I’m trying really hard to stay civil with this one. You praise a society of secrets, who doesn’t want the lame man to know what they know, who use networking to put each other in power, resulting in the world we have today. Sigh…

I want to know what any of that has to do with science, because you are turning it into a political discussion, and as far as I know, Masons believe in a G-d, as I do. You do not have to be a diehard religious fanatic to be a mason, but need to have the belief in an architect, which most scientists I think would agree with. So again I don’t understand what that has to do with my previous statements.

As far as being old and losing its virtue, again I didn’t say that. The areas of religion that conflict with the obvious answers of modern science should be rethought. I understand there are values under religion that would contribute to society today; the golden rule. My argument is with the blind followers of religion who do not wish to educate themselves because it conflicts with their religious views.

I have just reached your edit to add portion of your text, and I’m going to quit reading there. The more I read your post, the less you either read mine, or understood it. From my point of view, you are offended and trying to play semantics. You do understand that Islam has two forms of Jihad, a physical and spiritual one. It wasn’t until the early 1900’s that the physical jihad became predominate, and it’s easy to see a great factor for this was created by the west desire for oil and its attempts to control and dominate the middle east for it.

These are the reasons why I can’t take you and your religion seriously; you speak about criticism and religion having its benefits, then go into criticizing another religion consumed by what you appear to give off as hate, and ignorance.

If you wish to reply to my post so be it, but I’m going to end my conversation here with you. From my point of view you have only reinforced my disgust for ignorance and your ‘personal’ religious stance.

Originally posted by Urantia1111
i wonder if this proposed effect is possibly a function of devaluation and suppression of women in their culture. it has to have some overall negative effect to have such a lop-sided representation of half their population. a culture run entirely on testosterone.

It was religion that brought education to the western world, the muslims dont treat women as equals so dont educate them,mostly...
The article is valid.
Sadly suggesting Christianity, as others have here, impedes science is a little disappointing.

Muslims dont value women or their education in certain cases, your point here is valid.

It's already been said on this thread - all religion halts progress. I have no doubts whatsoever that Christianity's expansion in the west held us back for over a thousand years. For goodness sake, Galileo was kept under house arrest (for 15 years until he died) for daring to claim that the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe. Christianity also has ridiculous doctrines like 'Papal Infallibility' - which, in recent times, meant that Pope Jean Paul II could, in all seriousness tell the Christian population of Africa that a condom would not save them from AIDS, which led to an epidemic. Ridiculous.

The essay in the op is merely thinly disguised prejudice and bigotry pretending to be founded on intellectualism. It's not - it's an emotive piece designed to engender a divisive sense of superiority.

reply to post by works4dhs


Well actually, I was in Tunisia last year.... I also holidayed in Egypt a few months earlier....and had a great time thanks. You advocate missing seeing the Great Pyramids or the Valley of the Kings because of out and out bigotry.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

YHWH is most certainly NOT 'allah', because 'allah' claims for himself the title of 'Greatest Deceiver'.

Allah is the 'Best planner.'
can you show where Allah says what you claim?

Originally posted by Urantia1111
i wonder if this proposed effect is possibly a function of devaluation and suppression of women in their culture. it has to have some overall negative effect to have such a lop-sided representation of half their population. a culture run entirely on testosterone.

no our culture runs on both estrogen and testosterone. Men and women have more clearly defined priorities and roles in general.
Its just a different way than yours, it has its own philosophy and purpose of life. Its circling around Allah,spiritual sucess, social harmony and a belief in afterlife.
Western culture circles around individuality and more material success.

Would you ever think that the nuns are oppressed by the church because they have to wear a habit and restrict themselves from boozing and partying?

Do you think that anyone who does not do what you do, is not completely free?

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

Islam? Different racial groups are assigned monetary worth in descending gradations from followers of Mohammed. Women are treated worse than animals in many cases - women who try to claim equity of rights in a Muslim society are ostracised or attacked, even killed, simply for desiring an education, or for wanting to run a business to support her disabled husband, etc. Children as young as nine can be forcibly married off to some 80 year old paedophile who then rapes the child repeatedly until she goes though puberty & begins to bear children as a result of this perpetual abuse. All this is counted as lawful, because the 'super- dreamy-awesome' Mohammed did it too.

Really? Where you learnt it all?
Here is the Last sermon by prophet Muhammad pbuh

The Final Sermon:
After praising, and thanking God, the Prophet, may God send His praises
upon him said:
“O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this
year, I shall ever be amongst you
again. Therefore, listen to what I am
saying to you very carefully and take
these words to those who could not
be present here today. O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so
regard the life and property of every
Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the
goods entrusted to you to their
rightful owners. Hurt no one so that
no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and
that He will indeed reckon your
deeds. God has forbidden you to take
usury (interest), therefore all interest
obligation shall henceforth be waived.
Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer
any inequity. God has Judged that
there shall be no interest, and that all
the interest due to Abbas ibn Abd’al
Muttalib shall henceforth be waived... Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that
he will ever be able to lead you astray
in big things, so beware of following
him in small things. O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your
women, but they also have rights over
you. Remember that you have taken
them as your wives only under a trust
from God and with His permission. If
they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and
clothed in kindness. Do treat your
women well and be kind to them for
they are your partners and committed
helpers. And it is your right that they
do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as
never to be unchaste. O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, perform your five daily
prayers, fast during the month of
Ramadan, and offer Zakat. Perform
Hajj if you have the means. All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a
non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have
any superiority over an Arab; white
has no superiority over black, nor
does a black have any superiority over
white; [none have superiority over another] except by piety and good
action. Learn that every Muslim is a
brother to every Muslim and that the
Muslims constitute one brotherhood.
Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim
which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and
willingly. Do not, therefore, do
injustice to yourselves. Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer for
your deeds. So beware, do not stray
from the path of righteousness after I
am gone. O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith
will be born. Reason well, therefore, O
people, and understand words which
I convey to you. I leave behind me
two things, the Quran and my
example, the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those
to others again; and it may be that the
last ones understand my words better
than those who listen to me directly.
Be my witness, O God, that I have
conveyed your message to your people.”

By reading this I can see that 90% of people here dont know nothing about Islam or history. I live in europe and I can tell you, anyone who study european history will see that if there was no influence from middle east and arab scientiest there would be no euorpean renaissance and explsion of art and science. Islam had huge influence on western world, same western world who working on destruction of that culture.