3 good questions for christians/creationists

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Nightaudit
2: So you seemto be cherry picking. Is that the official position of the church/pope? That parts of the bible are not the word of god?

You think Christianity is an 'all or nothing' thing when it comes to the bible?
Guess what .. it's not.

This is one thing I have to agree with. People seem to think the bible is all "black and white", when there are a lot of messages in the bible you would take the wrong way if you didn't read in between the lines a little bit.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Indeed that is an answer, and quite the one I expected to be honest. I am not really saying that your individual belief is wrong. It seems though as you too have to ignore certain parts to hold up your belief.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

Originally posted by Nightaudit

Originally posted by FlyersFan
1: ..., I don't see how they can pick to be Christian. So the question is impossible to answer.

1: Sure it is. The answer would be NO, you wouldn´t be a christian.

NO .. it would depend on which country I was born into and what religion.
Many countries don't interfere with the faith of the people.
But many others do. Like many in the Muslim countries.

Like I said .. it's impossible to answer without the question being more specific.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

How would anyone know the answer to that?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible?

As a non-Fundamentalist, as most Christians are not, I do not view the Bible as the literal word of God, and so can see that the Hebrew Bible is the story of a people, their culture and their God. For Christians, the New Testament takes precedence, as we are not Jews under the Law, as the Israelites were.

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.

That isn't really a question, but once again, you're revealing a very shallow view of Christianity. If that's the way that you want to see it, that's fine, but that is not how Christians or Jews view it, so your dismissal of the religion is predicated on a poor understanding of what it is.

Those are the three big ones that made me leave church.

If those three very shallow issues, two of which are invalid perceptions on your part as regards the Hebrew Bible, led to your "leaving the church", you left the church long before any of them occurred to you.

1) I like conversation between the lion and the servant of tash in c.s. lewis’s the last battle and the book of Romans, the 1st 4-5 chpts,

" Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, "Son, you are welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. [...] Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by TAsh and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him." (CS Lewis, The Last Battle)

In Christianity the whole world is separate from Gods kingdom (nation) and is “a non Christian country with a different main religion.” That’s a fundamental point so it makes your question irreverent (not challenging you, it just is ). I understand your referring to the influence of a culture but yes that’s what I’m talking about also.

2) I do not regard the old testament laws as instructions to order society. They are more like battle orders to an military platoon behind enemy lines that’s struggling to get home in one piece. They are not intended for anyone to be able to keep, except one man, they are a foreshadow of greater things and things to come. Reading how Joseph managed finding Mary pregnant before marriage, is how we were to handle old testament law.

3) God was showing Abraham what he was himself going to do – in more than just words, via living it – walking in Gods shoes, the only way to really know another’s pain. He let Abraham in on exactly what his own heart was torn by, sacrificing his own son. It also shows what we many times face in life – having impossible situations we must walk through in faith that seem to characterize God different than he really is, in the end we find the truth but not in the trial.

wiping out ecosystems: Everything is dust, something God already says he hates and did not intend. I have had the unfortunate situation of multiple times with several loved ones having to make the decision of when to pull the plug. I was not happy with it, i would not think God is happy with it. Jesus wept over a guy he knew he was getting out of a grave in just a few moments.

reply to post by NorthBlizzard


First of all, thank you for discussing this so openly here with me! I really appreciate your thoughts!

1: I get your point now. And I agree. The christian church is a human made entity and therefore prone to make mistakes like any other one.

2: Yeah, that is kind of the problem for me. Some people say all of it is true, some don´t. That kind of made it hard for me to stick with the christian faith. But I respect your honesty here.

3: Hmm. You see that is the point where I have to disagree with you. I think we can find a lot of all too human reasons for those evil things that have happened in the past. I think when people say that the devil is at least somewhat responsible for that, then the "solution" would be to go to (christian?) church and pray.

I think we should rather consider why the kids at columbine did it. What circumstances led them to do do these actions? I think we were better off to find some real answers here. The devil seems to be kind of an "excuse" to me.

And again, I really appreciate your input, and I do not see you as angry in anyway, more to the contrary in the best possible sense.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
It seems though as you too have to ignore certain parts to hold up your belief.

Ignore certain parts ... of what? The bible?

The fundamentalist christians out there who think the bible was written by God and is infallible still have their beliefs and they don't ignore any of the bible.

I happen to be more of a New Testament Christian type. I acknowledge the prophecies of the Old Testament that are fulfilled in Jesus. I look at the teachings of Jesus as being from God. I don't look at ancient books in the Old Testament as being something that is 'pure' or from God. I see too much human interference in a lot of it.

Like you pointed out .. Abraham trying to kill his son.

Another one .. Onanism. The thought that God would strike people down dead because they 'spilled their seed'.

And the fact that 9/10 of the 10 Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead - which Moses was highly educated in. My ATS Thread on the 10 Commandments Being the Doctrine of Men

And the stories of Adam and Eve coming from Summerian Creation Myths.

And the story of Noahs Ark coming from Summerian myths and rewritten by the Jews.

etc etc etc

reply to post by Boston


Thank you for your thoughts, really interesting!

1: I honestly haven´t heard of this way of looking at it before. And I agree that it would make a lot of sense. What I am having trouble with though, is that gods influence somehow stops at borders of nations that man has created.

2: Well, there aren´t only battle orders in there. There are rules and guidelines what women for example are allowed to do among a lot of other things. These seem horribly outdated and cruel to our modern way of thinking, yet they supposedly are the work of god.

3: Well, I simply have to disagree here. The god I choose to believe in simply wouldn´t act like that. And I do not think that the killing of innocent is part of his process. Be it humans, animals or plants.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well didn´t you just prove my point then? All I was trying to point out is basically that religions in itself do have value for a lot of people and in a lot of ways.

But I do not see any reason why the christian faith is "better" or more accurate than the muslim, buddhist or hindu one.

Plus there have been religions before christ as well, and quite a few of them! IF the christian god is the true god, how could he have humans belief in multiple other ones for so long?

reply to post by Nightaudit


Same here. You're really the first person I've discussed religion with online that didn't turn it into a war. And thank you for that.

About #3. I completely see where you're coming from but if the devil is an excuse for their actions, how would it help them? On earth yeah they could say "I killed him because the devil made me do it, I was posessed". And that might work, here on earth. But when he dies and God asks him "Why did you kill that man" and he says "the devil tempted me to do it", that wouldn't get him out of hell. God gave us free will and choices and if a man chooses to do bad, blaming the devil wouldn't work. Satan only tempted, but the man accepted.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


NO .. it would depend on which country I was born into and what religion.

You just supported my point. It simply would be a coincidence it seems? If you were born in rural china or india, you surely wouldn´t be christian, would you? If your parents were believing buddhists, how big are the chances of you becoming a christian?

I would say slim at best. And that is the whole point I am trying to make.

There is not ONE real religion. There are many, and each have good and bad sides.

reply to post by NorthBlizzard


I get that point, I do. It wouldn´t help them a bit. I personally would define the devil as the general "temptation" to do bad things that maybe lies in all of us. I would see him more as a metaphor for the things we all have to cope with.

Some people choose to use shortcuts, steal and betray others, not to mention causing physical harm. In my eyes they probably fell for their "inner devil" and ignored the light so to speak.

But to me the existence of the devil is directly connected to the christian faith being "the" religion.

I am sure that the hindu myths or a lot of other beliefs. have similar creatures with different names. Why not attribute those evil deeds to those entities?

That is kind of a hard pill to swallow for me. IF I would believe in the devil, I would have to believe in the rest of it.

And I personally can´t do that anymore.

OP,

I appreciate your honesty and the manner in which you addressed the natural questions that even the most adament christians have to address in their own personal faith. This posting is not an attack at all, but rather the right questions to ask to bring understanding for one who does not understand the actual plan of God and the purpose of life by Him.

I cannot address all areas of concern (post character limit), but since you provided 3 questions, I will provide the truth of the 3 answers thereof, by the spirit of God dwelling in me.

1. God has a plan and purpose for every human being that has ever existed in the physical age of mankind's self rule (the age we live in now, but is quickly ending). Labeling that "christian" can be misleading, because the world of traditional christianity is in error with their understanding of Jesus Christ and God's plan for the salvation of all mankind. In a sense, yes all mankind no matter where you were born, or what your faith was in this age, will have the oppertunity in the second life (after the 1000 years have been completed) to know God, enter into a relationship with the creator, his son Jesus Christ and the members of the Kingdom of God/Elohim ruling the Earth during the Great White Thrown Judgement phase of God's plan of salvation. There is only a small group in this age (144,000), that were called out of this age (ecclesia/church = called out ones) for the purpose of being transformed from carnal physical selfish thinking, into spritual, loving, selfless thinking; in order to become part of the Elohim of God at the return of Jesus Christ. These called out ones have willingly entered into judgement in this age; whereas the remainder of all mankind has yet not entered into judgement in this age by perfect design. This is NOT the age for the salvation of all mankind; that is not God's plan. There is so much more to share regarding this awesome plan, but your question was specific and this answers the specific question to a degree.

2. No, a member of God's church on Earth understands that the laws of society in ancient Israel where given to them at a time when they were incapible of keeping God's laws in spirit and in truth; by design. For until God's Passover sacrifices blood was spilled to the Earth, he died and was resurrected to the Elohim of the Eternal; God could not dwell in the minds of men (because God will not dwell in sin). No man can keep the Holy laws of God, only God can. Therefore you must have God dwelling in you, so the works of goodness are from God, as there is no goodness in mankind by nature. Ancient Israel was an example of mankind's failure to keep God's laws even when God was their King. The physical ordinances were to serve as a historical example of the natural rebellious nature of mankind, which by design will always think carnally and desire their freedom of thought even when it hurts others. You see as an example, when we commit audultry (sin) we are told in ancient Israel that the individual must die for that sin. This is a physical law meant to teach those with a relationship with God a spiritual lesson. Your adultry hurt another (your spouse) your freedom of thought (freedom to choose a way of life in opposition to God's) has lead to pain and suffering in another conciousness. God's way of life teaches one how to live peace and love towards others, if you choose that way of life, then hurting your spouse is a most horrible offense, because you are meant to love you spouse above all save God in life. A physical example to teach a spiritual concept. Remember all mankind except 144,000 have not entered into judgement in this age, all who were stoned in ancient israel will be resurrected to physical life a second time (after the 1000 years), and they will understand their sin and their death in an awesome and perfect manner in God's timing.

3. God is love (agape). Agape is not the type of love we tend to think of as love, but rather self sacrificing love for the betterment of others. God requires of His Elohim the self sacrificial character His is, this is how God creates mankind in His spiritual image. God needed to know Abraham was willing (willing to choose) to sacrifice the same exact thing God Himself was willing to sacrifice in order for God to create His family Elohim (betterment of others). God sacrified His only son so that all mankind can be forgiven of sin and be transformed over the course of their lifetimes into the spiritual image of the Creator. Therefore in order for Abrim to become Abraham and for Him to become Elohim at the return of Jesus Christ, he had to be prooven willing to take on the character of God; willing to sacrifice his only son in order for his family to be blessed (betterment of others). Once Abraham made the choice, God did not actually require him to kill Isaac, He just needed to ensure His character was fully created in His future son (elohim) Abraham.

God Bless,

reply to post by Nightaudit


I see that point as well. Do you believe in hell? Or a place like hell? Do you think people that do bad here would go to a heaven of some sort when they die? Or maybe they stay here and that's why we have ghosts and spirits?

Not bashing your point at all, those are just things I thought about when reading your post.

reply to post by ElohimJD


Thank you for your honestly great post!

I really appreciate your input here and the way you present it. Allow me to comment on your thoughts.

1; I would pretty much agree with almost all of your points. Except that you seem to see Jesus Christ as the son of the one god. If that were the case then christianity would have to be the one religion. And for the reasons already mentioned I simply can´t believe that.

2: I think I understand what you are saying. But if this christian god is as great and incapable of mistakes as he is supposed to be, how could he told us these laws and rules that were outdated only 2000 years later? To me it is clear that the bible is a historic document written in the manner that was "modern" when it was created. That is why we have rules about slavery and see countless examples of women being basically second class citizen to men.

The only way to interpret that to me, is to acknowledge that the bible is the word of god in the same way that any other religious text is. And that would mean that it sadly is not the word of god, but the word of religious councils at the time.

3: There is a huge logical fallacy in the whole abraham story. God doesn´t NEED TO KNOW. He knows. He is above time and space and he knows everything. He would have known what abrahams true intentions were, whether he proved it or not.

The biblical god is acting like a human king. That should tell you guys something...

reply to post by NorthBlizzard


Hey there, I will gladly answer you question. Although I have to admit that this a very subjective belief that I have puzzled together for myself. And I do not say that this is the truth, it simply is the most probably scenario that I can think of today.

Ok. I do not believe in hell in the traditional fiery pit scenario, as that was majorly created by a man called dante alighieri (surely spelled that wrong).

I DO however believe that our "soul" exists. And I would like to believe that there is some form of existence after our human life´s end. IF that is the case, then I surely would hope that murderers and rapists will get what they deserve.

I have spent some time looking into near death experiences and read various books and articles about it. If we would consider these stories that share an amazing amount of parallels all over the world to be true, then the following picture would form itself:

Most NDE´s report that the subjects were going through a kind of "life review" during which they would have actually felt how others saw them. In more simpler terms, hitler would have experienced EVERY single negative action he caused others from their viewpoint. He would have been gassed and killed a million times over in his afterlife, as he witnessed his own actions from the viewpoint of his victims.

On the contrary a good person would feel the positive emotions that he or she would have caused others.

The result or meaning of all that would be that we develop ourselves (our souls) over a lot of lifetimes maybe.

I know that this needs a leap of faith as well in order to believe in something like that. But it would be a quite beautiful system, and at least we have some "vague" pointers in that direction in form of nde research.

So, yeah. In a way I do believe in a hell. Every single human builds his own heaven or hell during his life to his actions they perform here. And I think that this basic premise is reflected in almost all religions over the world.

And that to me is kind of the reason for our existence. Develop yourself, learn as much as you can and do good to others.

On the other hand we all could simply go to sleep and our existence would fade into nothing, that surely is a possibility. But I choose to believe in a reason for all this.

That possibly sounded very new-agey, but that is what I would hope to be true.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

1; I would pretty much agree with almost all of your points. Except that you seem to see Jesus Christ as the son of the one god. If that were the case then christianity would have to be the one religion. And for the reasons already mentioned I simply can´t believe that.

All religions created by mankind apart from the spirit of God dwelling in them are false, this includes those who are know as "christian". There is One God, One Way of life He teaches (law), One faith in that way of life, One Passover sacrifice for the removal of sins. There is only One way God teaches is true and good and that way is God's and is Holy because it is God's. Religion is irrelevent only what God is and How to learn to think like Him in life matters, that faith the world calls religion, but understand that the manner mankind views religion is not accurate.

2: I think I understand what you are saying. But if this christian god is as great and incapable of mistakes as he is supposed to be, how could he told us these laws and rules that were outdated only 2000 years later? To me it is clear that the bible is a historic document written in the manner that was "modern" when it was created. That is why we have rules about slavery and see countless examples of women being basically second class citizen to men.

The only way to interpret that to me, is to acknowledge that the bible is the word of god in the same way that any other religious text is. And that would mean that it sadly is not the word of god, but the word of religious councils at the time.

The physical ordinances in Ancient Israel were fulfilled by the Passover sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but NOT the law. The only thing that changed 1495 years later regarding the Way of life God teaches (laws/commandments) was the levitial priesthood and their role, as now the true priesthood (Church of God/Temple of God/Body of Christ) can begin to be created in mankind on Earth by God dwelling in the minds of His called out ones.

3: There is a huge logical fallacy in the whole abraham story. God doesn´t NEED TO KNOW. He knows. He is above time and space and he knows everything. He would have known what abrahams true intentions were, whether he proved it or not.

There is truth that God knew, because of everything He accomplished in Abraham over time that Abraham would obey His commands in all things, but what about the remainder of God's Elohim to be created in this age (143,999 more)? You see everyone God has worked with in this age has been able to gain spiritual understanding about the self sacrificial nature of God through the possitive example of Abraham's story. God isn't soly concerned with Abraham, but all Elohim over all time. The story of Abraham will be used by God forever to teach mankind about His nature and part of that nature is agape (self sacrifical love). It wil even be used in the Great White Thrown Judgement phase when billions of human beings will live a second physical life for the purpose of learning to think like God (be created in the spiritual image of God).

The biblical god is acting like a human king. That should tell you guys something...

The God of all Creation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; God the Father is unlike any human king that has ever existed. And soon when the 144,000 are resurrected (Elohim) as the Kingdom of God is established over all the Earth; those who depend on God for their deliverance from the destruction about to be unleashed over all the Earth (regardless of their "religion") will learn this fact in the most powerful manner possible, with the complete and total contrast of the Kingdom of God (government of God) as compared to the ruling leadership of the age you see around you this day.

God Bless,

reply to post by Nightaudit


That's a very good view, I've heard something similar before. Kind of a "karma" way to look at it, I like it. People have said they've seen hell in NDE's with fire and all that. I've wondered if maybe hell is a place all souls go before heaven, to cleanse everyone of their sins. Just one of many thoughts I've had. I would hope even muderers and rapists would have a chance to redeem themselves in the afterlife, but like I said before they made the choice.

I would find it hard to fathom God sending even the worst to a place of suffering for all eternity, which makes me believe if hell does exist, it's more of a cleansing or maybe a temporary prison. Maybe where you live out your worst moments like you said or maybe you stay until you ask God to forgive you.

reply to post by ElohimJD


Thanks for your input! To be honest it is kind of hard for me to follow your argumentation or your points regarding the elohim.

I get the feeling that we maybe kind of be on the same page in some ways, but irrelevant of that I think we can all agree that it can´t harm to just be good, either in the biblical sense or the one that common sense and logic dictate.

That surely can´t hurt!

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

Thanks for your input! To be honest it is kind of hard for me to follow your argumentation or your points regarding the elohim.

I get the feeling that we maybe kind of be on the same page in some ways, but irrelevant of that I think we can all agree that it can´t harm to just be good, either in the biblical sense or the one that common sense and logic dictate.

That surely can´t hurt!

edit on 18-4-2013 by Nightaudit because: spelling

Beautifully put. The one common denominator in all this is do not hurt others, but rather help them. No matter what belief one has that is a good place to be in ones mind.

Thank you for the thoughtful disscusion.

God Bless,