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Let's Talk About True Sacrifice

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posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 

As always, I'm confused. Would you give me a little help? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't crucified, that it was a symbolic story created to show love? Or, that he was crucified and the purpose of His Crucifixion was to demonstrate a moral lesson? Or, do you think it was something else?



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


I doubt it was intended to show love. If we look at the deeper story, we see an old man who designed a world according to a schematic which he knew would, at one point or another, require him to engender a fleshly avatar to sacrifice in his stead. Blood magic, basically. And he still went ahead with the design. He chose to make his son's sacrifice necessary even though he knew exactly what would prevent that necessity.

Basically, he chose to craft the hard road even while the instructions for the easy road were sitting right in front of him. If any of this is anyone's fault, it's his because he had the foreknowledge and capability. Not to mention that his inability to lose or sacrifice or experience loss at all prevents him from being an effective leader of the people.

Long story short, he was designed as a pawn of the people and not as a champion. Which is why I came up with the question: if given the choice, would he die for the people who own him? Or would he sacrifice them for a better model?



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 09:50 PM
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Jesus was crucified in the flesh, the interpretation of the story has been distorted by so many people and caused much discord, now listen, it is obvious the world has problems, it is obvious that humans are not NORMAL. What is normal? We all have psychological problems, there are things that confuse us and things easily clarified to us, but really, if the external is a reflection of the internal and we look at the world today, we can confirm that people are mentally unstable and retarded. Jesus came into the world to bring us the doctrine of the Christ. Now Christ is the Word- the living fire through which all is sustained. The fire is everywhere. It sustains every atom. I know some are going to argue this but anyway, let me get to crux of the matter.. Christ is the Word (Fire), and through the Word all things were created (Read the book of John), so now we can see that the Word is the Fire (God is a consuming FIRE, read hebrew 12:29) of all creation and the Word (if incarnated) is what eventually makes us creators. Now listen, Christ is the fire and in order to incarnate that fire, we have to clear our temples (bodies) from the evil which is corrupting it, nobody can deny that their evil or "wrong" deeds somehow have an effect on their conscience, even their health? NOBODY can deny this, evil destroys us. It is necessary to do more than just believe, it is necessary to consciously remove those evils within us so a new man can be created, a man of wisdom and of love, for Christ (The fire of wisdom and power) will by no means be united to a prostitute (someone who sells his body to passions and evil deeds)- read Corinthians 6:15. When I say the story is symbolic, I'm saying what REALLY happened represents something beyond literal meaning.



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 

As always, I'm confused. Would you give me a little help? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't crucified, that it was a symbolic story created to show love? Or, that he was crucified and the purpose of His Crucifixion was to demonstrate a moral lesson? Or, do you think it was something else?


I cannot answer for black sun--however; I have an idea. How does one show love through an ill defined law of "deny self expression" and then torture the one that promotes it; alongside thieves? Was this to minimise which? the thief of minds or thief of gross goods? If anything there should be a parable written about this in the bible--(NOT) as it is TOO OBVIOUS. No moral lesson here at all (except keep your mouth shut or you will hang on wood). The whole of the story is fitted to accomodate common criminals; Jesus as common. No, none of it rings any truth for me, John being beheaded is more believable. Jesus must have been the most ignorant/naive prophet ever lived to have agreed to this senario (in fact feels betrayed by its users). What would be the moral lesson Charles if you yourself were the crucified one? THINK. I will tell you, you had no business being alive in the FIRST PLACE--thus your PUNISHMENT.
edit on 6-9-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by BlackSunApocalypse
Jesus was crucified in the flesh, the interpretation of the story has been distorted by so many people and caused much discord, now listen, it is obvious the world has problems, it is obvious that humans are not NORMAL. What is normal? We all have psychological problems, there are things that confuse us and things easily clarified to us, but really, if the external is a reflection of the internal and we look at the world today, we can confirm that people are mentally unstable and retarded. Jesus came into the world to bring us the doctrine of the Christ. Now Christ is the Word- the living fire through which all is sustained. The fire is everywhere. It sustains every atom. I know some are going to argue this but anyway, let me get to crux of the matter.. Christ is the Word (Fire), and through the Word all things were created (Read the book of John), so now we can see that the Word is the Fire (God is a consuming FIRE, read hebrew 12:29) of all creation and the Word (if incarnated) is what eventually makes us creators. Now listen, Christ is the fire and in order to incarnate that fire, we have to clear our temples (bodies) from the evil which is corrupting it, nobody can deny that their evil or "wrong" deeds somehow have an effect on their conscience, even their health? NOBODY can deny this, evil destroys us. It is necessary to do more than just believe, it is necessary to consciously remove those evils within us so a new man can be created, a man of wisdom and of love, for Christ (The fire of wisdom and power) will by no means be united to a prostitute (someone who sells his body to passions and evil deeds)- read Corinthians 6:15. When I say the story is symbolic, I'm saying what REALLY happened represents something beyond literal meaning.


Why do you not have the self assurance enough to proclaim yourself as a God Particle? Why do you hang on the words of others to convince yourself you have meaning? Where is your mettle? Do you not think for yourself? You hang upon such things imagined: Fire, Word, Temple body, EVIL corrupting. Where did you learn this because to my mind sounds as if you are taking a belief system and adapting it to fit yours, NON EXISTANT, absconding something EASY. Why do you assume human nature is evil and destroys us? What if "I" IN FACT WILL NOT RECOGNISE EVIL (therefore it cannot touch me) and has no sayso as far as the progression of my soul continues without detriment or thwarting of.



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

Dear vethumanbeing,

This is becoming much more interesting than I thought it would. Thank you. You've opened up a fascinating subject. What role does god play in our daily lives?


To allow for all things possible that the human can attain (as it lives through us)....HUBRIS.



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 

Dear BlackSunApocalypse,

I have no trouble at all accepting the idea that I am retarded. I find the three most recent posts in this thread difficult to follow. If you have sufficient patience, may I tell you what your post meant to me? Then you can help me get back on track.


Jesus was crucified in the flesh, the interpretation of the story has been distorted by so many people and caused much discord, now listen, it is obvious the world has problems, it is obvious that humans are not NORMAL. What is normal? We all have psychological problems, there are things that confuse us and things easily clarified to us, but really, if the external is a reflection of the internal and we look at the world today, we can confirm that people are mentally unstable and retarded.
I'm a little more comfortable with "dieased," or "twisted," but those aren't insupperable problems.


Jesus came into the world to bring us the doctrine of the Christ.
My confusion starts here, with your use of the word "doctrine." I'm not sure that Jesus taught any particularly new truths, just about everything He taught can be found in earlier philosophies and religions. I would argue that Jesus had a different purpose, but I don't know if that is important to your train of thought.


Now Christ is the Word- the living fire through which all is sustained. The fire is everywhere. It sustains every atom. I know some are going to argue this but anyway, let me get to crux of the matter.. Christ is the Word (Fire), and through the Word all things were created (Read the book of John), so now we can see that the Word is the Fire (God is a consuming FIRE, read hebrew 12:29) of all creation and the Word (if incarnated) is what eventually makes us creators.
My only problem here is your idea that we are creators. Certainly not in the sense of making something from nothing. I suppose I'm misunderstanding you.


Now listen, Christ is the fire and in order to incarnate that fire, we have to clear our temples (bodies) from the evil which is corrupting it, nobody can deny that their evil or "wrong" deeds somehow have an effect on their conscience, even their health? NOBODY can deny this, evil destroys us. It is necessary to do more than just believe, it is necessary to consciously remove those evils within us so a new man can be created, a man of wisdom and of love,for Christ (The fire of wisdom and power) will by no means be united to a prostitute (someone who sells his body to passions and evil deeds)- read Corinthians 6:15
I think you're saying that we cannot become "new men" until we have removed the evil within us. If so, I have some real difficulty here. No matter what we do, we can never remove all of the evil within us. (Except, maybe for a few of the Saints, but they all claim to be sinners also.) It is as if you're saying that we can't see the stars until we can jump over the moon. I don't like being told that I must do an impossible thing.


When I say the story is symbolic, I'm saying what REALLY happened represents something beyond literal meaning.
I agree that we will never know, this side of Heaven, the true complete meaning of the Crucifixion, but I deny that we can never know any of it. I'm sure there is more than the literal meaning, but the literal meaning does exist and has been sufficient for vast oceans of people throughout history.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

Dear vethumanbeing,

Even more so than BlackSunApocalypse, I find you difficult to follow.

Let me start on firm ground before I venture into terra incognito. If you don't believe that Jesus was crucified, then it is you against the world. That is one of the very few facts of Jesus' life that scholars agree upon. But now, into the dark.


How does one show love through an ill defined law of "deny self expression" and then torture the one that promotes it; alongside thieves?
The Father passed a law denying self expression? I don't know where that comes from. And Jesus promoted the law against self expression? Please tell me where. Then the Father tortured Jesus? I thought it was the Roman soldiers.


Was this to minimise which? the thief of minds or thief of gross goods?
I don't see that it was to minimize anything. That was pretty much maximum death as far as I can tell. Jesus steals minds? No, He offers to heal diseased ones. If He stole minds, He must be a singularly ineffective thief. Observe all the minds He doesn't have.


No moral lesson here at all (except keep your mouth shut or you will hang on wood).
Yet the people for millennia have seen what you are unable to.


Jesus must have been the most ignorant/naive prophet ever lived to have agreed to this senario (in fact feels betrayed by its users).
Yet everyone who heard Him speak marvelled at His wisdom and authority.


What would be the moral lesson Charles if you yourself were the crucified one?
I don't understand your question. If I was executed for doing wrong, then the lesson would be justice.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

Dear vethumanbeing,

If I may venture some comments to your question to BlackSunApocalypse?

What can possibly be meant by a "God Particle?" Has He chipped a bit of Himself off and called it vethumanbeing? Are you talking about the Soul? That is not God either. It is spiritual and imperishable, but it is not God.

Why do we assume human nature is evil and destroys us? Come, have you not looked at a newspaper? Of course human nature is twisted or distorted, we have daily proof of that.


What if "I" IN FACT WILL NOT RECOGNISE EVIL (therefore it cannot touch me) and has no sayso as far as the progression of my soul continues without detriment or thwarting of.
If you don't recognize it, then you are hiding. Evil is all around. It provides us with temptations to do evil. Thinking that evil is powerless against you, is either clearly false, or demonstrates a serious spiritual condition in you. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Except you?

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 12:25 AM
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If YOU do not recognize evil? Evil is everywhere around you, can't you SEE it? Recognize it? Your world can't be perfect, is it? Evil is ubiquitous. If you do not recognize it, you can call yourself the God particle, but what's the point of doing so when you aren't self-conscious? There are many particles that hold you together, until every particle becomes conscious of itself, you can't call yourself the "God particle" as a whole.
edit on 7-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 12:45 AM
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Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Hermes, Moses etc were all messengers, avatars and helpers. They were living incarnations of the Holy One. Their messages were all about the revolution of our consciousness. They taught us in all various messages to put off the old self, corrupted by it's evil desires, and to put on the new self, the self of love and wisdom. The messengers used symbolism to hide their messages, only true seekers could uncover them and prevent them from being profaned. The ones who see things on the surface remain blind. What's really important is to know where we come from and where we're going, we need an awakened consciousness. People are sleeping, they rely entirely on "memories" that mold their perception of life and existence. It's clear that how we perceive ourselves now is built upon things we absorbed through our 5 senses since we were born. We are our memories and fantasies. Fantasies are really what we believe may happen in future without having a clear perception of what the future holds, or what we believe we are but really are not. Again, I will not become tired of stating that we need to awaken. We are not cognizant of OURSELVES. When we have problems for example, with our own body, we seek a doctor to help us, little do we realise that a doctors understanding is limited as well, yes, at times we can trust the doctor to help us with certain things, but to be incognizant of the mechanisms and functions of our own vehicle is indeed lamentable. But this is how we are, and we die just as we are, asleep. Jesus brought the doctrine of Christ to re-establish what was previously profaned. The times were evil and Jesus came to show us an example of love and peace. That is all there is to it. If we call evil personifications of errors within us- or demons, we realize that such demons need nourishment in order to grow and become stronger, now if we choose to ignore them, to fight against them by showing love and peace to others, they don't receive nourishment and eventually die off.
edit on 7-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 


No. Our imperfections will never go away. You can't kill them off or anything like that. You can only take opportunities to exercise your strength, expand your horizons, and educate yourself. You can never eliminate your flaws, you can only compensate for them.

And there's no point to being ashamed either. No point at all. But that's not the point here. The point is that the Christian god, or even the ideals it represents, are not healthy or worthwhile ideals for the human species. We are worshipping the inability to lose.
edit on 7-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 


No. Our imperfections will never go away. You can't kill them off or anything like that. You can only take opportunities to exercise your strength, expand your horizons, and educate yourself. You can never eliminate your flaws, you can only compensate for them.

And there's no point to being ashamed either. No point at all. But that's not the point here. The point is that the Christian god, or even the ideals it represents, are not healthy or worthwhile ideals for the human species. We are worshipping the inability to lose.
edit on 7-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

"Our imperfections will never go away", ever heard the saying "Never say never"? It could be perfectly applied to what you just said, and using "opportunities" to compensate for your flaws only means that somewhere within yourself you've lost hope in eliminating them. Am I correct? Please correct me if not.

The "Christian god" has been grossly misinterpreted by the subjective mind. I don't think you can judge the "Christian God" without having practiced the teachings the Bible presents. I read one of your threads, you said "it's important to wear someone elses shoes before judging them", well, if you wore the "Christians shoes" and really practiced it, only then would your judgements be acceptable.
edit on 7-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 



"Our imperfections will never go away", ever heard the saying "Never say never"? It could be perfectly applied to what you just said, and using "opportunities" to compensate for your flaws only means that somewhere within yourself you've lost hope in eliminating them. Am I correct? Please correct me if not.


You are deluding yourself if you think you will ever be anything other than human. You may as well make peace with it now. And using opportunities to compensate for our inherent flaws is not a matter of hope, it's a matter of progress. Progress from what? From helpless to capable.


The "Christian god" has been grossly misinterpreted by the subjective mind. I don't think you can judge the "Christian God" without having practiced the teachings the Bible presents. I read one of your threads, you said "it's important to wear someone elses shoes before judging them", well, if you wore the "Christians shoes" and really practiced it, only then would your judgements be acceptable.


Who says I'm judging anyone? I am making a case and defending it. I am saying that we ought to accept what we are instead of spending our entire lives trying to negate it. And worshipping a god who is incapable of true sacrifice, who is incapable of risk or loss or any kind of failure, is tantamount to worshipping nothing. Because a god like that is truly nothing. There is no triumph without challenge, and there's certainly no challenge for such a being as the god you worship. Thus, no triumph, no achievement, no nothing except the incessant desire to create division and undo it. To create conflict and resolve it.

Or...you can embrace the possibilities of creation and not be forced to destroy in order to create. You can use evolution to transform and learn the world around you. As humans, the only way we can do that is to accept our ability to do so and learn how to do it constructively.
edit on 7-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

Dear vethumanbeing,

If I may venture some comments to your question to BlackSunApocalypse?

What can possibly be meant by a "God Particle?" Has He chipped a bit of Himself off and called it vethumanbeing? Are you talking about the Soul? That is not God either. It is spiritual and imperishable, but it is not God.

Why do we assume human nature is evil and destroys us? Come, have you not looked at a newspaper? Of course human nature is twisted or distorted, we have daily proof of that.


veteranhumanbeingWhat if "I" IN FACT WILL NOT RECOGNISE EVIL (therefore it cannot touch me) and has no sayso as far as the progression of my soul continues without detriment or thwarting of.



charles1952
If you don't recognize it, then you are hiding. Evil is all around. It provides us with temptations to do evil. Thinking that evil is powerless against you, is either clearly false, or demonstrates a serious spiritual condition in you. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Except you?


Are you assuming then that you are not "part" of Gods figment of imagination? If not, do you consider yourself its "CHILD". What are you in fact in relation to your creator, the bald headed stepchild? I do not hide, I have no fear and so have no reason to do so (certainly not from God). What an odd statement for you to make. Evil is not a thing I allow as a primary interest, I like brownies better; make no mistake Ive had my moments as Daniel Webster against the Devil, but I do not fear IT. Its more fun to play with it and outsmart it (as I have on many occasions). What spiritual condition am I lacking, (hint, Im not a Priest or Nun). I have no temptations other than to trick the devil which is great fun. I have never sinned because that is Satans REALM, and I do not recognise or live within it.
edit on 7-9-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2013 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 

Dear vethumanbeing,

Even more so than BlackSunApocalypse, I find you difficult to follow.

Let me start on firm ground before I venture into terra incognito. If you don't believe that Jesus was crucified, then it is you against the world. That is one of the very few facts of Jesus' life that scholars agree upon. But now, into the dark.


veteranhumanbeingHow does one show love through an ill defined law of "deny self expression" and then torture the one that promotes it; alongside thieves? The Father passed a law denying self expression? I don't know where that comes from. And Jesus promoted the law against self expression? Please tell me where. Then the Father tortured Jesus? I thought it was the Roman soldiers.Was this to minimise which? the thief of minds or thief of gross goods?



charles1952
I don't see that it was to minimize anything. That was pretty much maximum death as far as I can tell. Jesus steals minds? No, He offers to heal diseased ones. If He stole minds, He must be a singularly ineffective thief. Observe all the minds He doesn't have.


To minimize his message, that backfired. Problem is, Jesus was the last to know that this was the purposeful INTENT. Come on, do you really think he'd agree to these shenanigans if told the truth of his missionary efforts? Wouldnt YOU if you were in his place want to be in the boardroom during the decision making when discussing YOUR FATE, destiny and reputation? Ask any Babist adulteror, or FLDS polygamist, or RCC pediphile if Jesus stole their minds.


veteranhumanbeingNo moral lesson here at all (except keep your mouth shut or you will hang on wood).Yet the people for millennia have seen what you are unable to. Jesus must have been the most ignorant/naive prophet ever lived to have agreed to this senario (in fact feels betrayed by its users).



charles1952
Yet everyone who heard Him speak marvelled at His wisdom and authority.


And everyone else listenned to Ziddhartha, or Mohammed. Someone was not listening though, those that crucified him; why did God allow that, and not equally crucify Budda and Mohammed.? There is an easy answer for this, too easy.


veteranhumanbeing]What would be the moral lesson Charles if you yourself were the crucified one?



charles1952
I don't understand your question. If I was executed for doing wrong, then the lesson would be justice.


Why was Jesus executed? For doing wrong. Why was he in fact executed for doing the noble thing? Its all backwards, he was not heralded, he was used as a martyr that to this day exists in falsity, and NEVER WOULD HAVE AGREED to his manner of death (because why? it was all trickery). Who was in charge of this ultimately, not the Romans, nor the Jews, and if "GOD" treats its own missionaries with such irreverance, I want no part of IT. But of course IAM IT so have no REAL OBJECTION (could have been better finessed *if 2013* but you have to consider the TIME FRAME, very few were educated folk back then).
edit on 7-9-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 02:17 AM
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I'm not deluded in believing we'll become something more than humans. If we wish to progress from helpless to capable, obviously we'd want to go from human to gods. Nobody would be satisfied with being a human forever, and if they are, what's wrong with being a god forever? At least then, we'll have better capabilities to create. If we're striving for the ultimate peace and love to reign. Wouldn't that be correlated to desiring a massive degree power? Even if we aren't as powerful as other beings, who cares? As long as we're content and happy within ourselves. That's all that matters. Peace between humans should reign, and likewise among the gods. Power can gradually be increased. You question a God upon ultimate sacrifice. So let me ask YOU this, if you could choose between eternal hell fire or eternal bliss and peace, and those were your only 2 choices. What would you choose? Any rational human being, or any rational god would choose eternal peace and bliss. That's what we all are striving for, some people don't attain such according to their whims and desires, and then become frustrated and start wars to create peace. Violence only engenders more violence. I am sure somewhere in ancient history peace reigned over the entire earth. If peace can never be attained on our planet, then life in itself is HELL. It's like being slapped back and forth, struggling between two opposites, yes, it does create the idea of balance between good and evil. But that balance is often misleading, any evil action can destroy another, hurt or paralyze another. So, it becomes necessary to choose and to eliminate. Darkness is associated with ignorance and evil. Light is associated with love and peace, so we have a choice. We've always had a choice, we were born with the choice, and the sooner we make it the better, the struggle between 2 opposing opposites only creates confusion and strive.
edit on 8-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-9-2013 by BlackSunApocalypse because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 02:53 AM
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I think the better question to ask yourself is why is your pride and vanity so deeply rooted that it controls every part of your being to the point where instead of just getting on your knees and sincerely asking God who he is and submitting to his authority, that instead your so drunk on pride that you waste your life coming up with hypotheticals that are bullsheat. If anything all your question actually does is remind Christians what kind of lost vile blind creatures they use to be.

edit on 8-9-2013 by spartacus699 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by spartacus699
 



I think the better question to ask yourself is why is your pride and vanity so deeply rooted that it controls every part of your being to the point where instead of just getting on your knees and sincerely asking God who he is and submitting to his authority, that instead your so drunk on pride that you waste your life coming up with hypotheticals that are bullsheat. If anything all your question actually does is remind Christians what kind of lost vile blind creatures they use to be.


Is it vanity to pursue happiness? Is it pride to desire freedom? I should think it would be more foolish to model yourself after a purist egomaniacal god.
edit on 8-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by BlackSunApocalypse
 



Even if we aren't as powerful as other beings, who cares? As long as we're content and happy within ourselves. That's all that matters. Peace between humans should reign, and likewise among the gods. Power can gradually be increased. You question a God upon ultimate sacrifice. So let me ask YOU this, if you could choose between eternal hell fire or eternal bliss and peace, and those were your only 2 choices. What would you choose?


I would rather live just one lifetime and be restarted as a fresh soul. I don't want to be immortal.


We've always had a choice, we were born with the choice, and the sooner we make it the better, the struggle between 2 opposing opposites only creates confusion and strive.


I disagree. I believe it improves the ability to balance opposing values, which we all have. When we are caught between logic and passion, balance comes in handy. That's why I object to worshipping such an extreme ideal, such an absolute nature. We were never meant to be wholly selfish or wholly selfless. But we can always try to be the most constructive of both.
edit on 8-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)




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