Let's Talk About True Sacrifice, page 6

smithjustinb

posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 10:15 AM

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reply to post by NewAgeMan

Nvm

edit on 15-4-2013 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

AfterInfinity

posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 03:26 PM

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So what do you guys think about the acceptance of failure deal? Should your god be comfortable with risking himself for you? Should he be comfortable with having to suffer for that?

edit on 15-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

jmdewey60

posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 08:09 PM

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reply to post by AfterInfinity

So what do you guys think about the acceptance of failure deal? Should your god be comfortable with risking himself for you? Should he be comfortable with having to suffer for that?

This question, or whatever, is nonsensical.
"My God" is whatever I think God is, and it could be some infinite number of entities, spread all over the universe as far as I am concerned, but in practical terms, it doesn't make any difference except that god is like me, and I am like God, in certain respects.
We are similar species of beings, or whatever, and why God cares about us, and why we can call on Him for help.
You can take advantage of our big brother who is there to help, or you can go down, all by yourself.
I find the second choice amazingly foolish.
You somehow in your mind because of some childhood trauma, decided God is the pastor or whoever who didn't handle your disbelief very well.
I think it is time to grow up, be a man, and get over it, and discover God yourself, ignoring second rate preachers.

charles1952

posted on Apr, 15 2013 @ 11:42 PM

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reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinity,

Sorry I've been away, medical issues. The only good side is that it gave time for another thought to pop into my head. I think it's closer to the exploration you wanted to do, but of course, I could be wrong.

We've kicked around the idea that you're demanding God do something that is completely, logically, impossible in order to prove that He can do anything at all (that He exists). But let's assume that God can destroy Himself to save humanity.

My next question would be, does He have to? Is Self-destruction necessary? As an example, I see someone drowning in the ocean, but I am only a mediocre swimmer. Do I have to jump into the water to try to save him, even if I'm in a boat I can just steer over to the victim, then throw him a rope?

Many, myself included, don't believe that God needs to make an appointment with Dr. Kervorkian to save humanity, there's an easier and more just provision already in place.

I'm suggesting that we may have gone from asking God to do an impossible act to doing an unnecessary act. Is that better for you and your discussion?

With respect,
Charles1952

edit on 15-4-2013 by charles1952 because: (no reason given)

vethumanbeing

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 12:01 AM

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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by AfterInfinity

Many, myself included, don't believe that God needs to make an appointment with Dr. Kervorkian to save humanity, there's an easier and more just provision already in place.

I'm suggesting that we may have gone from asking God to do an impossible act to doing an unnecessary act. Is that better for you and your discussion?

Why would anything we ask of our Creator be an impossiblity; IT requires exactly the same of us. We live in the precarious world it created; and we as its playtoys have to manuvoure through, mazes, puzzles of the obvious:
Feed yourselves
Profligate
Find the means to do so (all of the above)
If I GOD am your means go for it but I do not proclaim myself to you fools
Keep your Faith based decisions zeroed in upon an unknown factor that will not take any blame for your current misery. "I As God Can Manifest All, You My Children Cannot".

Everything is necessary and no thing is over the top regarding God to explain its intentions even if it has to dien itself not to inform or position its own creations; that is to ENABLE them to find themselves, even with no parenting apparant. I dreamt my creator into existance because I had to and I could be dead wrong.

edit on 16-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

charles1952

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 01:12 AM

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reply to post by vethumanbeing

Dear vethumanbeing,

We may have a definition problem.

Why would anything we ask of our Creator be an impossiblity;

Asking God to be ignorant, limited by the laws of physics, do evil, all seem to be impossible under any traditional definition of God.

I don't believe we are God's "playtoys." We are His children.

If you dreamt your creator into existence, then who created the "you" who is dreaming?

With respect,
Charles1952

vethumanbeing

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 02:08 AM

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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread939319/pg6#pid16239694]post by vethumanbeing

charles1952
Dear vethumanbeing,
We may have a definition problem. Why would anything we ask of our Creator be an impossiblity; Asking God to be ignorant, limited by the laws of physics, do evil, all seem to be impossible under any traditional definition of God.

So you are saying God is ignorant, limited by laws of physics and harms in evil ways because we demand the possiblity thereof and forthswooth immediate recompensation (if all things are possible) . God would naturally ignore such queries if it were smart.

charles1952
I don't believe we are God's "playtoys." We are His children.
If you dreamt your creator into existence, then who created the "you" who is dreaming?

Well you could look at it this way, since WE define/describe God to ITSELF (no one else is claiming authorship) God is actually our Playtoy to disrupt, confine, destroy, starve, leave outside in inclaimate weather, turn into a chewy for the dog or just neglect. God is dreaming it created us, it is the other way around, we created IT (and we were awake and lucid). God needs us to define itself otherwise it is looking into a oneway mirror that reflects nothing.
edit on 16-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

charles1952

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 02:20 AM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing

Dear vethumanbeing,

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's a language problem. I thought you said there is nothing impossible to God. My response was that some things are impossible to God. God can't be stupid, or evil.

An all-powerful god can't be our playtoy which we created. First, because God created us. Second, because we are not able to create a perfect god using only our limited tools.

We can imagine such a god, but we can't create one.

With respect,
Charles1952

vethumanbeing

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's a language problem. I thought you said there is nothing impossible to God. My response was that some things are impossible to God. God can't be stupid, or evil.
An all-powerful god can't be our playtoy which we created. First, because God created us. Second, because we are not able to create a perfect god using only our limited tools.
We can imagine such a god, but we can't create one.

No, I think we are close to an understanding. God seems not to notice some things personal; necessary to human existance: survival, happiness, or providing it (as a parent) a general sense of well being. Maybe GOD is in a perpetual vacation mode, ignoring important responsibilites (children are involved you know). I would settle for an imperfect God if it would show up for baseball practice and pay child support to we, the latch key kids.
edit on 16-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

charles1952

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 02:38 AM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing

Dear vethumanbeing,

This is becoming much more interesting than I thought it would. Thank you. You've opened up a fascinating subject. What role does god play in our daily lives?

I ask your forgiveness. It's 2:30 a.m. here. May I continue this tomorrow?

With respect,
Charles1952

AfterInfinity

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing

I would settle for an imperfect God if it would show up for baseball practice and pay child support to we, the latch key kids.

I don't want a perfect "God" who can't cater to my biological shortcomings and actually establish a working relationship where we talk face to face and have a coffee or something. I want a "God" who acknowledges our differences, doesn't judge us for them, makes an effort to compensate because he's all-powerful and it costs him nothing and actually reaches out in some tangible way. Give us a break here, we'r not omniscient so we can't just know that he's there. Meet us halfway.

But in all actuality, I don't want a god to rule over me, I want a friend to share life with. Doesn't want my soul, doesn't tell me what to do under pain of eternal torment, just there to share with me as I share with him. Or her. Whichever. A shoulder to cry on, a fellow person to talk to, a hard kick in the - annnyyway, haha. I don't want a master. I don't want a king. I want a friend.

And your god isn't what I look for in a friend. I don't believe in perfection, and I don't hold well with anyone who insists in dragging me along on their pointless quest to achieve it. Perfection is a resistance of motion, and resistance of motion creates friction, then flames. You gotta keep moving. Motion is change, change creates causality, causality introduces a vast web of potential futures that all involve trial and error because that's how we learn, it's how we think and how we feel and how we live. Perfection and immortality are stupid dreams to chase after, because every baddie who ever has got beat in the end. They found the perfection of indesire and the immortality of timelessness. But they lost their lives.
edit on 16-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

AfterInfinity

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by charles1952

Asking God to be ignorant, limited by the laws of physics, do evil, all seem to be impossible under any traditional definition of God.

I don't believe we are God's "playtoys." We are His children.

I beg to differ.

1god
noun \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Definition of GOD
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind

2
: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

As you can see, definition # 2 makes it quite clear that a god need not be perfect, just moreso than whomever defines such an entity as a god. Although if something were to be superior to the human race and not desire worship, could it still be labeled as a god?

I'm asking because I've seen numerous cases of an entity being much more powerful than the average human and not asking to be worshipped, yet it was hailed as or likened to a god.

charles1952

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 07:40 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinity,

This thread was begun using Definition 1 as the basis. (The emphasis on "Christians," etc.) If you want to start all over with a different idea of 'god," fine, but I don't think it will be as interesting.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinity,

But in all actuality, I don't want a god to rule over me, I want a friend to share life with. Doesn't want my soul, doesn't tell me what to do under pain of eternal torment, just there to share with me as I share with him. Or her. Whichever. A shoulder to cry on, a fellow person to talk to, a hard kick in the - annnyyway, haha. I don't want a master. I don't want a king. I want a friend.

Doesn't much matter what we want now, does it? What matters is what's true, what's reality. If the Universe is not what you want, well, learn to adjust.

Or, buy a spaniel.

With respect,
Charles1952

vethumanbeing

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by AfterInfinity

afterinfinityBut in all actuality, I don't want a god to rule over me, I want a friend to share life with. Doesn't want my soul, doesn't tell me what to do under pain of eternal torment, just there to share with me as I share with him. Or her. Whichever. A shoulder to cry on, a fellow person to talk to, a hard kick in the - annnyyway, haha. I don't want a master. I don't want a king. I want a friend.

charles1952
Doesn't much matter what we want now, does it? What matters is what's true, what's reality. If the Universe is not what you want, well, learn to adjust.
Or, buy a spaniel.

I understand your frustration regarding wanting a friend in God. Were your parents friends to you; because that would be the counterpoint to your arguement. It is a wise parent and a rare one that befriends their own children. I thought the entire process of procreation was to produce a better specimen of itself, and the Jealous God would not help its creation in any way (more like a 'feet to the fire experience'). Dont ask ME why, this is the circumstance I obverve as the child creation of a being too big in importance to pay attention to its prodjeny; or it could be that being/parent does not exist at all in the way WE expect it to exist (BECAUSE IT IS ENERGY) rather a very formidible conciousness that we have no grasp on (so far) in our ability to understand it. Only when we lose gross form will we have even an inclinkling regarding its nature. Good advice Charles, it seems not to matter, but the test is to deal with our circumstances with dignity; although I do so want to cry "FOUL" at times rather than literally crying.

edit on 16-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

vethumanbeing

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 09:02 PM

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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Dear vethumanbeing,
This is becoming much more interesting than I thought it would. Thank you. You've opened up a fascinating subject. What role does god play in our daily lives?
I ask your forgiveness. It's 2:30 a.m. here. May I continue this tomorrow?

It takes a good opening OP query and the ones that respond to it quite unexpectedly create the best threads; for whatever reason I think the major role God plays in our lives is to learn to TRUST not only in its beingness (which is sketchy at best) but more importantly to trust ourselves FIRST, our decision making and our management of ourselves; with no help whatsoever other than that we create (fantasize/wish a God into manefesting?) maybe, I hate to say it but perhaps there is a tipping point when we ultimately with enough energy force decide how and where this will happen on Earth, a bubble bursts, something rips the time continueum wide open and poof, the plumbed serpent appears. Against every instinct rebelling; existing in every fiber of my being I have say it appears to be Faith based. Good luck to us all.

edit on 16-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

vethumanbeing

posted on Apr, 16 2013 @ 10:24 PM

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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

I would settle for an imperfect God if it would show up for baseball practice and pay child support to we, the latch key kids.

AfterInfinity
And your god isn't what I look for in a friend. I don't believe in perfection, and I don't hold well with anyone who insists in dragging me along on their pointless quest to achieve it. Perfection is a resistance of motion, and resistance of motion creates friction, then flames. You gotta keep moving. Motion is change, change creates causality, causality introduces a vast web of potential futures that all involve trial and error because that's how we learn, it's how we think and how we feel and how we live. Perfection and immortality are stupid dreams to chase after, because every baddie who ever has got beat in the end. They found the perfection of indesire and the immortality of timelessness. But they lost their lives.

I dont own a god, I dont walk one or feed it. Im not sure Id answer the door if it used my 'snake' door knocker. Seriously obtained it from my Mother; was a Christmas gift my sister shunned (afraid of snakes apparently). Motion drives creation even if it is etheric; what other kind is there to cause change. The reason the badies seem to prevail is that they have no doubt as to their scourilous outcomes and dont care. They do these things with a purity of thought that is driven without bias, morals as to consequence to victim; and as a purer thoughtform of evil intent will prevail. Its the purity without contamination that trumps rightous doubt. Weird but true. Wed all be better off being catburglers with a goal and purpose. This is rhetorical dont bother to answer.

edit on 16-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

AfterInfinity

posted on Apr, 17 2013 @ 09:49 AM

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reply to post by charles1952

Doesn't much matter what we want now, does it?

Do you really think that what you want doesn't factor into how you see the world? You are an emotionally driven creature. Everything about you is emotionally influenced. Everything you do is because of something you want.

BlackSunApocalypse

posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 02:52 AM

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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
This question is posed to all practitioners of the Christian faith. Let's say "God" has two choices:

1. Destroy himself to preserve the universe. His death would invoke an eternity of peace and prosperity for all living creatures throughout the universe. In destroying himself, he would never again be able to exist in any form. His only remaining traces would be his creations.

2. Destroy the universe to preserve his own existence. The continued existence of the universe would weaken him until he could no longer do anything but enjoy the agonized slumber of an old man suffering perpetual degeneration, for as long as he also exists. Should he destroy the universe, he would be unable to create a new one.

To the best of your Christian knowledge, what would he choose? And remember - these are the only two options allowed in answering this question.

What Would God Do? Heh heh heh...

To explain what God would do firstly require Gods perception. And God's perception is beyond our understanding. God could never sacrifice himself without continuing to play His role in existence, since God is the force/spirit that sustains all in the eternal and infinite universe.

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BlackSunApocalypse

posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 03:39 AM

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What you read in the bible should never be interpreted solely on a literal basis, the death of Jesus was symbolic for the ultimate sacrifice and in effect, was an example of how much we should love each other.