I'm not too sure that "God" created these human bodies we all have. Here's why:

reply to post by dominicus

. . . there is an existence prior to the body.

I am not questioning that part because I believe the same thing, but what I mean is that your memories were not of you doing physical things.
You may have had an awareness of your own personhood, and aware of others, or of god, or other things, but did you actually do anything?

That we are consciousness experiencing physical avatars.

"Avatar" has a connotation of something that is not 'real'.
I think we are very real, as much as anything else in the universe, or the universe itself.

These bodies are just really highly advanced "suits." And our scientist are very close to being able to build one from scratch. They can already 3D print living organs and brains in petri dishes.

I don't know how relevant any of that is. I would assume that sort of thing would have been considered in the planning stages of creation.
Does that possibility make you imagine that you personally somehow have the power to "change your suite"?
I would not count on it. I think our powers will always be limited, no matter how far science advances.

reply to post by dominicus

I do not only go by the Genesis take, considering we have the older Epic of Gilgamesh and Enuma Elis stories, arguably predecessors ...as well as the creation stories of all the various cultures in the world. To just go by Genesis is to create Bias. Again I revert to why we should all have to suffer because Adam/Eve messed up?

Everyone suffers.
That is the reality of our existence as living beings.
The Old Testament was written in a historical context of having their kingdom overrun by hostile and cruel empires.
The flood makes that seem maybe not so bad, considering the circumstances and the comparison.

IF God didn't want Adam/Eve to eat the Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge and Good and Evil, he wouldn't have created the Tree in the first place, or would have known the moment when they would be tempted to eat from it, and prevented it.

There are two different ways to group the clauses in the Hebrew text describing the creation of the garden. One way is to have one say that the Lord planted all the trees good to eat. The next clause says there were two trees in the midst of the garden. Obviously the one tree at least was not "good to eat", so you could conclude that it came up on its own, or that it was already there, and that the Lord did not plant it Himself.

The way I experience God, is as an Infinite, Omni-Present Consciousness, that Me-as-Observer/Awareness, is inherently linked to like a drop of water falling into an ocean.

How do know that is God?

How do you know? Or how do I know? The one word that's missing in that sentence collapses all the context.

But for sake of discussion, I'll answer how I know. I've been down various Spiritual paths for the last 12-14+ years now, and realize that the majority are all leading toward the same thing, (Enlightenment/Union w/ God) and I experience this and have found at least a few hundred books across various spiritual disciplines that all describe the exact same thing, many of the authors being Highly esteemed by the followers of those paths.

Why couldn't it be something else, like what you are as a human being, and everyone else who are human beings, who also have a nonphysical component to them that maybe not everyone is necessarily consciously 'tuned into'?

That is exactly what I'm saying. You-as-Observer/Awareness, is the nonphysical component that has pre-existed prior to the body, and will continue to go on after the body dies, and very few are aware of themselves as the Observer/Awareness ...especially when you consider everyone is too busy looking out, no one ever really spends time looking In, to find out who is the One doing the looking.

"God" I think is something else where if there was such a thing as generic gods, they would have a connection quite similar but on another frequency. You could have on one level (I think), the "Observer/Awareness", and on another, action, doing things we cannot, being bound by the limitations of the material world, as an inextricably integral component of our beings.

God is Infinite, Omnipresent Supra-Consciousness. Everywhere all at once, like Space. Can be experienced and accessed.]

I am not questioning that part because I believe the same thing, but what I mean is that your memories were not of you doing physical things.

Correct, the memories were of existing and doing nonphsyical things, and discussing with others, coming h ere to Earth to take on a body, even though when I saw what Earth was about, I wanted to literally puke when I saw all the ego, wars, disease, death. I guess I've carried over my hangover of this place, into this life, come to think of it

Still in the nonphysical state, I was naturally unlimited, free, unbound, content, happy even, light, etc. That's why I compare earth life to a broken rusty bicycle with flat tires.

You may have had an awareness of your own personhood, and aware of others, or of god, or other things, but did you actually do anything?

Yes, I did things. Can move through space, communicate with others through the use of telepathic perspective sharing so that nothing is lost in translation, can connect to another and share empathy, or to a planet and feel what goes on there, and it seems in that state everything is already connected to God and most Beings know it.

"Avatar" has a connotation of something that is not 'real'. I think we are very real, as much as anything else in the universe, or the universe itself.

I did not mean to imply "not real". Is your vehicle real? Yet you know you are not your vehicle? Although sometimes when driving, it feels like you are One with the vehicle. Body is just a vehicle.

I don't know how relevant any of that is. I would assume that sort of thing would have been considered in the planning stages of creation.

Depends who was doing the planning & designing, considering science is at the precipice of greatly improving on the design, it brings alot to question

Does that possibility make you imagine that you personally somehow have the power to "change your suite"?

I believe the suit can be changed 1 of 3 ways.
1. Science/Doctors/Geneticists/Stem Cells
2. Miraculous Act of God
3. When reaching Enlightenment, the body changes to be able to handle more of God. See Buddhist Rainbow bodies and see the Undecaying Saints in Christianity.

I would not count on it. I think our powers will always be limited, no matter how far science advances.

I doubt it. Tweak a few DNA molecules and you'll start to break the limits

There are two different ways to group the clauses in the Hebrew text describing the creation of the garden. One way is to have one say that the Lord planted all the trees good to eat. The next clause says there were two trees in the midst of the garden. Obviously the one tree at least was not "good to eat", so you could conclude that it came up on its own, or that it was already there, and that the Lord did not plant it Himself.

Regardless, an Omniscient Being could have stopped it and done away with the tree. If you were God, wouldn't you have plucked out the tree or stopped Adam? I know I would

reply to post by dominicus

How do you know? Or how do I know? The one word that's missing in that sentence collapses all the context.

But for sake of discussion, I'll answer how I know.

Good choice.
That was a typo, something I do a lot because I try to type fast while the thought is fresh, then go back and fix the mistakes and sometimes one will get missed, usually one in every post.
Well, now that we settled that, yes, how would you know God when you met Him, or felt Him, or believed that you were somehow telepathically connected?
If you think you are connected to some sort of network, then why not that be us, meaning everyone else, since you already think you are able to reach out to other consciousnesses, why can't other people, whether they are aware of doing it or not?

. . . I experience this and have found at least a few hundred books across various spiritual disciplines that all describe the exact same thing . . .

You read about a type of experience and hundreds of books describe a very similar experience, and they were books on seeking unity with God. You also had that experience, so then it must have been God. That seems to be the chain of logic you are following. Do you believe that the multiplicity of books make them accurate? I just don't buy it, that because people seek an experience with God, and while trying, do have some kind of experience, and it matches what others seeking the same thing experienced, then it must have been really truly God.
It could be that is just hardwired into people's brains, that if they try to connect with something outside of themselves, another consciousness, then they will, or at least think that they did. I know that people can connect to other people telepathically because I have done it before. It wasn't God, though.

. . . no one ever really spends time looking In, to find out who is the One doing the looking.

Are you talking about yourself? Someone 'inside' you? The "observer"? You can 'observe' things in a way not connected with your body, like remote viewing. Most people need to stay focused on the here and now so they don't do things like crash their car.
"Monks" comes from the Greek word to be alone, and the original monks did that, with the word "monastery" being an oxymoron. The idea being to be in a peaceful state to connect with God. It is possible in the right setting, when you are at peace, to focus intently on divine things. Understanding can come from that but you still don't have the power to conjure up God, as in the person, God, being at your beck and call.

reply to post by dominicus

God is Infinite, Omnipresent Supra-Consciousness. Everywhere all at once, like Space. Can be experienced and accessed.

I used to think that, but I think I was enlightened, and suddenly all that fell into a smoldering heap.
There is no rational reason, to me, to believe in all that rubbish and I now think it was a product of Medieval imagination and a Christian tendency toward hyperbole.
I had to get in touch with ancient stoicism to get at what is really rational. Once I felt I understood it, I was impressed with the truth of it and how it actually fits the biblical model, while what passes for modern philosophy was from that creepy Dark Ages version of Christianity, burning witches and heretics, and Hell with people stuck-head first into pits of liquid poop.

Anyway back from that little tangent, and to what you are saying, I think that is the Aether. It seems to be the physical medium of the universe and carries all thoughts and energies, so you are really not touching God, but just the stream of the universe.

Yes, I did things. Can move through space, communicate with others through the use of telepathic perspective sharing so that nothing is lost in translation, can connect to another and share empathy, or to a planet and feel what goes on there, and it seems in that state everything is already connected to God and most Beings know it.

You didn't get your hands dirty, for one thing, you didn't have hands.
What I'm trying to get at is that if you never experienced that, there would be this void, and it would be more compelling than the reverse, which was having hands and dirt to stick them into but not being able to fly like the wind (or whatever I am tying to make an analogy to).

Regardless, an Omniscient Being could have stopped it and done away with the tree. If you were God, wouldn't you have plucked out the tree or stopped Adam? I know I would

The tree represents things that you can't do anything about, not even by God. As long as you were inside the garden walls and followed the rules of the garden's owner, you never had to deal with those nuisances.
Disobedience was the passport to the real world where hardship is a fact of life. It was inevitable that it happened but it places the blame on the people and makes the Lord out as not being guilty of creating a bad world, but something we needed for our spiritual improvement, knowing that we are basically prone to doing bad things and can't just be allowed to go on forever as if it was perfectly acceptable.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Well, now that we settled that, yes, how would you know God when you met Him, or felt Him, or believed that you were somehow telepathically connected?

Well, I can deduce that this body of mine has as its source, my two parents, both of whom have their source. The part of me that Pre-Existed, Consciousness/Awareness, also has a Source, although that Source is Nonphysical, as is Consciousness itself.

So its a number of things, direct experience, and then in retrospect of that experience, the mind brings in logic/reason to deduce a Source. Furthermore, finding others who have experienced this and alot more than I have, finding books also in retrospect, that discuss this experience and seeing that Vast Philosophies/Religions are built just around this experience alone. All the NDE's world wide that are describing this as well.

There's too much weight available in support of this.

If you think you are connected to some sort of network, then why not that be us, meaning everyone else, since you already think you are able to reach out to other consciousnesses, why can't other people, whether they are aware of doing it or not?

That connection is prior to thought, so I don't "think or imagine" that I'm connected to it. Most other people can't do it, because they live so wrapped up in the illusions and Bias of the mind, that they don't see Awareness/Consciousness. Can an eyeball see itself? Even with a mirror available, its still a reflection.

It is Western culture, strong in Logic/Reason and Head Based Illusion. The Union/Enlightenment requires intuition, patience, sitting, going within, solitude, etc

Do you believe that the multiplicity of books make them accurate?

In my case, this experience, and many others, happened prior to me having any context of them. It was after the fact in which I found the books explaining them, and much more. As well as NDE's and meeting others who experience this way. Much weight!!

I just don't buy it, that because people seek an experience with God, and while trying, do have some kind of experience, and it matches what others seeking the same thing experienced, then it must have been really truly God.

I do buy it. If I want to experience the very best fishing trip in North America, I can ask others where and when to go, knowing that they have been there, and then go myself and experience it for myself.

There are checks & balances in the God experience, in that it is prior to thought/imagination, so we can check off that it is imagined.

It could be that is just hardwired into people's brains, that if they try to connect with something outside of themselves, another consciousness, then they will, or at least think that they did. I know that people can connect to other people telepathically because I have done it before. It wasn't God, though.

They already have studies showing those who experience God have a part of their brain lit up, that those who don't experience God, don't have it lit up.

The brain is wired for God. But most people seek self satisfaction instead.

Are you talking about yourself?

No, everyone else. Most people don't spend time going within.

Someone 'inside' you? The "observer"? You can 'observe' things in a way not connected with your body, like remote viewing. Most people need to stay focused on the here and now so they don't do things like crash their car.

I'm not saying "find the Observer" while driving. I'm saying setting a time aside at home, when there is free time, or on a lengthy retreat.

I used to think that, but I think I was enlightened, and suddenly all that fell into a smoldering heap. There is no rational reason, to me, to believe in all that rubbish and I now think it was a product of Medieval imagination and a Christian tendency toward hyperbole.

Doesn't matter who believes this or not. Its a living, breathing, direct experience that can be known directly. No "imagining it" required.

Anyway back from that little tangent, and to what you are saying, I think that is the Aether. It seems to be the physical medium of the universe and carries all thoughts and energies, so you are really not touching God, but just the stream of the universe.

Sure it may be, who knows. Though I experience this as the Source of Me as Consciousness. So at this point in my life, I have no reason not to believe that its God

reply to post by jmdewey60

You didn't get your hands dirty, for one thing, you didn't have hands. What I'm trying to get at is that if you never experienced that, there would be this void, and it would be more compelling than the reverse, which was having hands and dirt to stick them into but not being able to fly like the wind (or whatever I am tying to make an analogy to).

I don't understand the point here. I didn't need hands or a body in my pre-existing state. I know that its much preferable to being here in a limited, aging, fragile body and is all who we truly are.

The tree represents things that you can't do anything about, not even by God. As long as you were inside the garden walls and followed the rules of the garden's owner, you never had to deal with those nuisances.

Having a young child, who can be tricked by others, I wouldn't put my child in any scenario where he can be tricked into something that would cause him trouble or harm. And if he was to be in some place like that, I would make sure to instill in him the wisdom to watch for traps/tricks. Now expand that to the grand scheme of the Garden of Eden and how much more, if I were God knowing the consequences of Adam eating from the Tree of Knowledge, would I do everything possible to make sure there is no tree and they know about being tricked by any serpents.

Disobedience was the passport to the real world where hardship is a fact of life.

Disobedience is part of free will, ignorance, being young and dumb. When I was a child, I was disobedient many times, and always got a second chance from my parents, who would sit me down and explain wisdom and knowledge to me so I would grow from it

The Adam/Eve disobedience is rather crude. No second chance, immediately kicked out of the garden into harsh conditions, death, pain, suffering, etc. God could of easily said, "Ok now children, you guys got tricked by the serpent." Let's do this all over again but this time, really REALLY make sure you dont eat from that tree or get tricked into it."

....that's just the OT Genesis take however, I don't only go by that.

It was inevitable that it happened but it places the blame on the people and makes the Lord out as not being guilty of creating a bad world, but something we needed for our spiritual improvement, knowing that we are basically prone to doing bad things and can't just be allowed to go on forever as if it was perfectly acceptable.

What I'm saying (Also echoed in the Bible, Revelations) is that this world is Dead, this way of life, these bodies, all of our reality here is like AOL dial up 1.0, with slow ancient body designs, still using fossil fuels, still acting out of ignorance and ego, still wars, still rapes, disease, fighting, and the All Singing, All Dancing Crap of the World.

This is all going to change regardless. Designer babies, bullet proof immune systems, super strength, 100% brain access (instead of 3-10% like we have now), cancer proof, lengthier lifespans, less ignorance due to (small percentage of brain use, brain washing mental programming, third world countries).

We got Fusion coming, Anti-Grav is in the works, Artificial Intelligence, we have tech, fuel, change coming at such a rapid rate, that all of this bullsnip is going to change one way or another. We'll be able to access interstellar travel through wormholes, that's all coming, and we'll eventually repopulate a new planet.

I think with these new Body designs coming, more and more people being born this way will have direct access to the spiritual experiences/realities and this will change the world. Also Brain to Brain consciousness interfacing will allow us to download the state of Enlightenment/Union with God from someone who is in it already.
_______________
Oh one last thing that I forgot to mention that ads more light to Enlightenment/Union with God. I remember when I was still doubting this and deeply questioning all of it, somebody asked me to go with them to see and Enlightened Spiritual Master.

I simply tagged along, neutral to the subject, just to go to accompany my friend. So I'm at this place, hearing this so-called Master speak, and he leans over to me to say something, and in that instant, the Center of my Consciousness seemed to be lit up by his close proximity. Like one candle lighting another, he lit up my Consciousness and from that point on, I was stabilized as the Observer.

This stuff is real.

reply to post by dominicus

Vast Philosophies/Religions are built just around this experience alone.

Hmm, like Suffis?

Most other people can't do it . . .

So you just write off the idea that you are really just connecting to a universal consciousness of other people because most people don't bother signing in. OK, so if 99.999% of people in the universe don't, how about the .001% of trillions of planets? So multiple trillions of people signed into a universal network of consciousness is so trivial to you that it is not even worth considering?

. . . it is prior to thought/imagination, so we can check off that it is imagined.

So your ultimate 'truth' test is that you have this experience before you read about it. There is a such thing as suggestions that will change your perceived memory. You would need a double blind test for it to be reliable, meaning something like a written or recorded spoken description made before reading the books that describe the same thing.

They already have studies showing those who experience God have a part of their brain lit up, that those who don't experience God, don't have it lit up.

Of course God did not appear to the researchers to verify that the subjects did in fact connect to Him.

Doesn't matter who believes this or not. Its a living, breathing, direct experience that can be known directly. No "imagining it" required.

This leaves me incredulous.
Your experience makes you know that "God is Infinite, Omnipresent Supra-Consciousness. Everywhere all at once, like Space."?
I mean, this feeling comes over you and when it is over, you somehow know all of that? Are you simultaneously "everywhere all at once" and then conclude that if you are, then so is God?

Though I experience this as the Source of Me as Consciousness. So at this point in my life, I have no reason not to believe that its God

OK, so what you believe is that you grew out of God, so if you go back to the womb, metaphorically speaking, then you 'found' God?
Nope, sorry but first you need to prove that you came from God.

reply to post by dominicus

I don't understand the point here. I didn't need hands or a body in my pre-existing state. I know that its much preferable to being here in a limited, aging, fragile body and is all who we truly are.

After so many trillions of years, plus some kind of infinite state before that, I think it would occur to you that it would be desirable to have a body, even if it was to eventually deteriorate, just to have that experience of being not just a thought, but an actual being.

. . . if I were God knowing the consequences of Adam eating from the Tree of Knowledge, would I do everything possible to make sure there is no tree and they know about being tricked by any serpents.

You can't! Now of course it doesn't say that explicitly but at least it is implied. This is a big hurtle most people never make it over because of the lingering influence of Medieval thinking. People think that of course God can do anything. Classical philosophy never accepted that hyperbolic interpretation of God's powers. They accepted that the universe operates on a system that even the gods have to recognize and respect and not to butt their heads against it. That was a philosophical maxim universally accepted. The Dark Ages replaced that through a military alliance of church and state to stamp out ideas that go against the concept of an ultimate authority.

Disobedience is part of free will . . .

"Free Will" is another on the list of Medieval inventions. Eve ate the fruit. Why then did Adam eat it when later Eve carried some over and gave it to him? It was fate. He had no choice. My suggestion is to everyone to toss out the concept of free will, which is really a tricky method to force compliance to the church/state power monopoly of the Dark Ages.

....that's just the OT Genesis take however, I don't only go by that.

That's the only Garden of Eden version that I know about. I gave an explanation for the purpose of putting this story in the Old Testament, on the Eden thread Here,
www.abovetopsecret.com...
To summarize, the bad tree represents 'pagan' worship, which means anything not officially sanctioned by the church/state power monopoly, as in the Groves of ancient Israel, while the good tree represents the form of worship that was allowed by the government, which was the temple on Mount Zion. That there was "grove" worship cause God to have to punish Israel by being overrun by first the Assyrians, and then the Babylonians.
In the eyes of the OT writers, because the people "played the harlot" by using non-sanctioned altars, the 'real' altar that could bless them (the temple on Zion) was destroyed so now, people couldn't use it even if they wanted to.
So, that is why there is no 'do-overs' in the Eden story because it doesn't fit the historical reality that was the great national tragedy, the abomination of desolation.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Hmm, like Suffis?

Every esoteric core of every main religion revolves around this. Christianity, Sufism, Buddhism, Taosim, Zen, Native American Cultures, Various aspects of Greek Philosophies, General Mysticism, Hinduism. It's all there.

Jesus saying, "I and the Father are One." Is discussing exactly this experience of Union.

So you just write off the idea that you are really just connecting to a universal consciousness of other people because most people don't bother signing in. OK, so if 99.999% of people in the universe don't, how about the .001% of trillions of planets? So multiple trillions of people signed into a universal network of consciousness is so trivial to you that it is not even worth considering?

That Universal Consciousness is God, and I'm not writing off anything. The Universal Consciousness is already everywhere and connected to all things as One.

So your ultimate 'truth' test is that you have this experience before you read about it. There is a such thing as suggestions that will change your perceived memory. You would need a double blind test for it to be reliable, meaning something like a written or recorded spoken description made before reading the books that describe the same thing.

My "truth" test is various. Are there others who experience this? Yes. Are there NDE accounts that talk about this? Yes? Are there Religions that talk about this? Yes? Can I guide somebody else into this experience so they can see for themselves if this is true (which in way is like recreating an experiment via something akin to the scientific method)? Yes ...I have done so. Are there any Monks, Mystics, Hermits, and Saints that have spent decades going within who have taken off all forms of mental bias and worldly programing, who eventually get to this experience as well? Yes.

Truth/God is not limited to "double blind tests." There requires at least an agnostic or openness mentality in a person before they can see or experience for themselves whether this is true or not. Somebody who lives within a Bias that says, "This is all bullcrap that is made up and imagined, so I will not waste my time." Has already made up there mind and therefore will not approach these experiences with any possibility of neutrality.

Of course God did not appear to the researchers to verify that the subjects did in fact connect to Him.

That's a matter of Bias/Perspective. Are we limiting God is such a way that he is supposed to appear in ways that appease our imaginations? Perhaps God was there the whole time and its the researchers are not aware.

This leaves me incredulous. Your experience makes you know that "God is Infinite, Omnipresent Supra-Consciousness. Everywhere all at once, like Space."?

There are no borders I could find, nor was there any One place that this Being was/Is. If a drop of water falls in an ocean, does that drop of water know where the borders of the Ocean are, or where the Ocean is?

I mean, this feeling comes over you and when it is over, you somehow know all of that? Are you simultaneously "everywhere all at once" and then conclude that if you are, then so is God?

Its not that this feeling/experiencing comes over me. Its that the feeling/experience of being a Separate person comes/goes/and seems super imposed over the One Super Consciousness.

At this point, we are uselessly digressing into the attributes of God. They are words that never come close to the actual experience. If you want, go see for yourself what it is like. There are various maps and blueprints that show the way.

I will paraphrase Augustine who also experienced what I speak of. He wrote massive theological volumes of books and commentaries. After experiencing God, he said that everything he wrote, "Is like straw to the wind." Same here with this thread. Go see for yourself.

OK, so what you believe is that you grew out of God, so if you go back to the womb, metaphorically speaking, then you 'found' God? Nope, sorry but first you need to prove that you came from God.

I can give you maps/blueprints. Go see for yourself. I don't have to prove anything. We all come from, and are inherent sparks of God. It Is that way regardless of who believes what.

My proof exists when One goes and see's for themselves that it Is that way and corresponds to all the various teachings of Christ, Buddha, Tzu, Socrates, Adi Shankara, and a vast array of others.

Observe the Observer, or Unknow everything while sitting in Unknowingness, will reveal God, are just 2 ways there.

See for yourself, otherwise this is all straw to the wind. Someone dared me to see for myself once, and what I speak here, is what I have found. It Is that way regardless

reply to post by dominicus

I think with these new Body designs coming, more and more people being born this way will have direct access to the spiritual experiences/realities and this will change the world.

There is a discussion of this on last sunday's episode of The Paracast, from April 7
www.theparacast.com...
Where the guest was describing how people are evolving rather quickly to where they are advanced in their abilities at a younger age than what was normal years ago.

This stuff is real.

Of course it's 'real', but real what?

reply to post by jmdewey60

After so many trillions of years, plus some kind of infinite state before that, I think it would occur to you that it would be desirable to have a body, even if it was to eventually deteriorate, just to have that experience of being not just a thought, but an actual being.

Cool, I agree perhaps it is that perspective of many from the Infinite state. What I see, is that the curiosity of a few to come here and be this way, has created a vast brainwashed prison system. Go travel a little and you will see rapes, wars, disease, starvation, death, hatred, fascism, disgustingness everywhere. We can the attribute all as the cause of a number of individuals who were curiosity to experience the physical.

You can't! Now of course it doesn't say that explicitly but at least it is implied. This is a big hurtle most people never make it over because of the lingering influence of Medieval thinking. People think that of course God can do anything. Classical philosophy never accepted that hyperbolic interpretation of God's powers. They accepted that the universe operates on a system that even the gods have to recognize and respect and not to butt their heads against it. That was a philosophical maxim universally accepted. The Dark Ages replaced that through a military alliance of church and state to stamp out ideas that go against the concept of an ultimate authority.

So now we are limiting and putting rules on an Unlimited God? The above is all theories and digression. We don't truly know if Genesis is literal or symbolic.

"Free Will" is another on the list of Medieval inventions. Eve ate the fruit. Why then did Adam eat it when later Eve carried some over and gave it to him? It was fate. He had no choice. My suggestion is to everyone to toss out the concept of free will, which is really a tricky method to force compliance to the church/state power monopoly of the Dark Ages.

Good luck explaining that to all the people who don't believe in OT. My suggestion is to toss out all concepts of everything, and to realize Enlightenment/Union.

That's the only Garden of Eden version that I know about. I gave an explanation for the purpose of putting this story in the Old Testament, on the Eden thread Here,

Go check out Epic of Gilgamesh, Enuma Elis, and the Gnostic OT Demiurge theory, and then we can digress in better perspective. I will check that thread though.

To summarize, the bad tree represents 'pagan' worship, which means anything not officially sanctioned by the church/state power monopoly, as in the Groves of ancient Israel, while the good tree represents the form of worship that was allowed by the government, which was the temple on Mount Zion. That there was "grove" worship cause God to have to punish Israel by being overrun by first the Assyrians, and then the Babylonians.

Yeah good luck with that. God getting angry and punishing sounds like human nature super imposing human characteristics onto God.

If we are going to discuss "God" we need to keep in mind everyone's take. Natives, Buddhists, Nondualists, Gnostic, Christian, Islam, Zen, Bon, etc etc.

reply to post by dominicus

That Universal Consciousness is God

I think that this may be where we part company, which is probably what your definition of what "God" is.
And that may not be your fault, but very well may be because of the peculiar nature of how I define God, that may not be shared by anyone else, for all I know.
I think there was a division between beings when there were real beings, at the time of the creation of the universe, where on one side is the gods, and on the other, people, like us, who are physical beings living in the material world and integral to it.
The gods would have a different sort of existence that does not involve having a material body integral to their being. They could, present themselves as if they did, and manipulate things in a material way, like my god encounter story where he grabbed me by the hand and lifted me up. God could have just lifted me and had that, what was there, so that I could have something to see and feel, as a way to have a normal-like interaction. The difference being between us and them, is that when whatever had to be done, was done, he could just dematerialize, which we cannot do because if we did, we would cease to exist as a being in this universe.
Alright, but this doesn't deal with this issue of having a connection with a consciousness that is 'out there'. I just don't think that this connection on some universal 'spiritual' network is anything other than the Aether of space that is full of information from all the other inhabitants of the universe who exist on the same level as us. That is not God, where the Gods are on another level above the ordinary Aether level, but on a truly spiritual level, that we, on our own, do not have ready access to.
Now that doesn't mean that God cannot give us spiritual 'gifts', but that gift does not mean that we are all of a sudden inside God's mind. We have rather a part of God's mind inside ourselves, if God gives that to us. It is completely in His ontrol.
An analogy may be the difference of going to a web site and downloading a file, vs. hacking into the site's files and going into the web-master's personal information.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I think that this may be where we part company, which is probably what your definition of what "God" is.

At the end of the day, my Definition of God, is that God is Undefinable, yet can be experienced. But then again, the definition of a thing, is never the same as the actual thing. Just like the thought of a rock, is not the same as the actual rock which you can hold in your hand and skip across a pond. You can't hold a definition in your hand.

And that may not be your fault, but very well may be because of the peculiar nature of how I define God, that may not be shared by anyone else, for all I know.

It's all good. Its easy to be lost in translation when it comes to words.

I think there was a division between beings when there were real beings, at the time of the creation of the universe, where on one side is the gods, and on the other, people, like us, who are physical beings living in the material world and integral to it.

That's your take. My take, is we all existed as Consciousness, prior to the material world and its creation. We were all United as One, and witnessed the Big Bang. I think when we are all One, the act of separating from the One, somehow caused a Great Schism that resulted in Physical reality and an eventual imprisonment in these bodies, during which we have all but forgotten our true nature and origins.

Of all that can be gotten back through Enlightenment/Union w/ God.

The gods would have a different sort of existence that does not involve having a material body integral to their being. They could, present themselves as if they did, and manipulate things in a material way, like my god encounter story where he grabbed me by the hand and lifted me up. God could have just lifted me and had that, what was there, so that I could have something to see and feel, as a way to have a normal-like interaction. The difference being between us and them, is that when whatever had to be done, was done, he could just dematerialize, which we cannot do because if we did, we would cease to exist as a being in this universe.

How do you know your experience wasn't caused by an individual being like an Angel that you mistook as God ...considering your lack of perspective/experience with Spiritual being, many people in NDE's seeing a Spiritual Being for the first time, take that Being to be God, which the Being then says that he/she is not God.

Alright, but this doesn't deal with this issue of having a connection with a consciousness that is 'out there'. I just don't think that this connection on some universal 'spiritual' network is anything other than the Aether of space that is full of information from all the other inhabitants of the universe who exist on the same level as us.

Perhaps it may not be. Perhaps everyone who ever said that this Super COnsciousness is God, is in fact wrong. Perhaps Jesus, Buddha, all the Enlightened Beings that have ever come before us, and those who have experienced Union with God, were all wrong.

I am open to that possibility, but highly doubt it.

That is not God, where the Gods are on another level above the ordinary Aether level, but on a truly spiritual level, that we, on our own, do not have ready access to.

Do you really believe no one has access to that level? Do you really believe that's air your breathing?

Now that doesn't mean that God cannot give us spiritual 'gifts', but that gift does not mean that we are all of a sudden inside God's mind. We have rather a part of God's mind inside ourselves, if God gives that to us. It is completely in His ontrol.

I would still argue that we have some level or amount of free will to figure out things for ourselves within perhaps a certain level of limits. If there is a God, he would surely provide a way for each individual to access him. I digress.

An analogy may be the difference of going to a web site and downloading a file, vs. hacking into the site's files and going into the web-master's personal information.

At the end of the day, I still see my argument on experiencing directly Enlightenment and Union with God, as having too much weight to support that it is actually God that I experience, and not Aether. I see Aether more so the fields and energy accessible and felt when I do Tai Chi.

reply to post by dominicus

Thanks for answering all those questions and I hope it better describes what your message is, and people can read it and think what they will.
Anyway, I don't see there in your posts that you expect any response from me other than to think about what you said.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by dominicus

 

Thanks for answering all those questions and I hope it better describes what your message is, and people can read it and think what they will.
Anyway, I don't see there in your posts that you expect any response from me other than to think about what you said.

edit on 12-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I do have something in mind:
Check out this thread I made:
The Ultimate Enlightenment & "How To" Guide & Discussion

It basically outlines, how to see for yourself, if Enlightenment and Union with God are real, through direct experience, step by step, with Nice sized Army of Links to back it all up.

Everything I say, compared to experiencing what's on that thread, is honestly like straw to the wind. I invite you to see for yourself via all the info provided on that thread.

I used to say and believe all types of various things. Once I saw within, via those methods, honestly there is just pure contentment and knowing. Everything else here on these ATS threads that I post, is just for the purpose of sparking mutually beneficial debate that would hopefully and ultimately lead to person questioning themselves and everything they think they know.