I'm not too sure that "God" created these human bodies we all have. Here's why:

I did a thread in the Philosophy Forum the Other day entitled"
The body. A Prison or a Temple?

And basically stated that because I remember pre-existing prior to living in a body, and having witnessed death, suffering, disease, addiction, starvation, and a vast of array of human conditions that I can't even mention here on ATS, I've concluded that these bodies are prison cells to the soul.

Well eventually ATS member "ConstantConfusion3" responded with her take:

Human beings are fragile, you are not invincible, your bones will age, your body will weaken, no matter what. Take CARE of your physical self, inside and out, because no matter the strength inside-if you weaken the vehicle that carries your soul, its like a snail with a broken shell..things creep in, you start feeling weak on the inside...its depressing. Treat your body as a temple, go easy on it, bones can break, discs wear down..the there's those nerves... My body was my temple, my body is now my prison.

Since I have had a similar life time run with health problems of various sorts, I too agree with her take above. And this really got me thinking last night.

Now here's where it gets interesting and why I made this thread.

I'm starting to really question whether or not "God" made these bodies. Because when I read the news, I keep seeing GROUNDBREAKING discoveries on genetic mutation in the human body that is a vast improvement to what we have now.

Look at the current state of the condition of Human Bodies. Max 128 year life span, inevitable cancer, health problems of various sorts, time limit, strength limit, so fragile, so weak, weak immune systems (compared to crocodiles and alligators & various species which seem to have super immune systems).

These bodies are weak, fragile, tired, extremely limited, veiled from spirituality, creating ego's, ignorance, a dark veil placed over the soul and so forth.

And yet, scientists are getting to a place where they can now make Genetically Modified Babies, which will improve the current sickly and weak design. They have already found the genetic switches for super strength, Height, Super Immune Systems, 700+ year lifespans, Bigger/Smarter Einstein-like brains, cancer proof, etc

If God made these bodies, why not make them with all those improvements that scientists now have access to, from the very Get-go? It's these physical limitations, weaknesses, and spiritual veils placed on us (through the body) that is causing the majority of ignorance, war, hatred, and disgusting acts in this world.

As a human collective, we now have access to the blueprints to DNA and the human body, and there are so many improvements that can be made. Why would God make such slow, fragile, limited bodies?

Unless you subscribe to the theory that we were made by Demi-gods (aliens) for the sake of being workers to mine gold and whatever else they needed thousands of years ago, as said in various texts of antiquity. Either way, open to discussion

Because all things upon this Earth pass away, so we must hold ourselves to higher values that are eternal.

The Worldly Hope men set their Hearts upon
Turns Ashes--or it prospers; and anon,
Like Snow upon the Desert's dusty Face,
Lighting a little hour or two--is gone.
- Omar Khayyám

Originally posted by dominicus
If God made these bodies, why not make them with all those improvements that scientists now have access to, from the very Get-go?

Because god didn't make them. Evolution did. He/she/it most likely doesn't exist.

You're looking for alternative answers when answers already exist, but cognitive dissonance is hindering you from accepting them.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Because all things upon this Earth pass away, so we must hold ourselves to higher values that are eternal.

I understand that. I remember pre-existing and already being eternal, with higher values. The existence here on earth is crude and I don't understand the point of it if we are souls already.

Its like owning a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, and then having to give up that vehicle and having to walk everywhere, in crutches, handicapped in the rough elements.

This place can be a Spiritual Utopia in relative Universal Peace.


reply to post by Xaphan

Because god didn't make them. Evolution did. He/she/it most likely doesn't exist.

Sorry brother, but I clearly remember pre-existing as pure bodiless consciousness, prior to being born on Earth. I'm sure evolution exists for all the material based existence, but that's not all there is.

You're looking for alternative answers when answers already exist, but cognitive dissonance is hindering you from accepting them.

Lol ....you sure I'm the one with cognitive dissonance? Do you really believe that's air your breathing, and that the suit you call a body, is really who you are? Good luck with that. I understand where you are coming from, though its a view due to die when the great equalizer called physical death pays a visit and reveals the eventual "other side" to your current belief system

reply to post by dominicus


no matter how weak and frail your body becomes, the moment you let it become "your prison" is the moment that you give up.

remember YOU are NOT your body...i hope you understand, just because your physical vessel is weak and broken does not mean that your spiritual one is...the moment that you let your body imprison your soul is when you consider yourself as being "your body" because you are not...

and finally when this vessel can no longer carry you, it will break down and rot, however who YOU really are will live on forever...

its not so much a physical battle as it is a spiritual one,

and remember although you control your body to a certain degree YOU ARE NOT YOUR BODY...think about it....if you were, why would you let "your body" get sick and brittle?...thats because you are just a spectator experiencing the world through your body's senses.


the true prison lies within your mind

reply to post by dominicus


The human body is only a prison to those who fear finiteness. And those who fear finiteness are usually the ones who haven't spent their time as well as they could have. Spend your time wisely, and you will have no reason to regret the inevitable end that nature demands to all things. But remember: the word 'end' is really just another word for 'change', something we must all be comfortable with if we are to accept these corporeal manifestations that serve our experiential journey. And even if we cannot find comfort in it, we must still accept it, or the chafing of our resistance will only bring more chaos. Any more questions?

I made an account just to reply to this.


God didn't give us those things from the get-go because we're not meant to have them. We're not meant to be super beings; they aren't necessary to our purpose here. I am content being a lowly Human, here to experience the good and bad of mortal life before moving on. Sorry to hear you need more.

Ironically, you speak of "ignorance, war and hatred" and then applaud genetically modified babies? LOL! They will PURGE your inferior DNA forever! The advances they're discovering aren't for you, they're for the psychopaths who want to become gods and overthrow God's old order. It's satanic at its core.

Seriously, who would want to live 700 years >.>



"I can do anything, but not everything is good for me."

reply to post by dominicus

As a human collective, we now have access to the blueprints to DNA and the human body, and there are so many improvements that can be made. Why would god make such slow, fragile, limited bodies?

First of all, I don't want to live 700 years, thanks very much.
But, in terms of some 'influence' or 'design' by any nebulous and unknowable 'Creator', who's to say that evolution and science weren't part of the original "plan" to begin with, and we are on schedule, and our current state is just another blip on the monitor? People are very impatient. And we know we don't have 'forever' in this body.

What worries me is that IF we don't straighten this mess out, AND it turns out that reincarnation is real and inevitable except for the most sublime, wise and matured souls, BUT we don't actually get to 'choose' or make a soul contract in between...and instead are randomly recycled like so much flotsam and jetsam....
it's horrible to think that even the best of us might wind up in the most hopeless, cruel, harm-filled, hungry and destitute of situations.

On the other hand, if everyone is cared for, we could just move from situation to situation and help each other focus on the growth of the soul, rather than struggling with unendurable suffering.

Maybe the answer is that. We are meant to take care of each other, to a one, and to steward our planet, so that if we do come back, we have nothing to fear or worry we might have to suffer. These have been my thoughts of late. I certainly don't have the answers to any of these questions.

Interesting topic, S/F.

reply to post by Laposz

God didn't give us those things from the get-go because we're not meant to have them.

That's a relative point. Who's to say we are all the only planet with living beings? Statistics show that its impossible for there not to be life somewhere else within the Universe. With those odds, surely there are HIGH chances of there being a civilization that has access to Perfect bodies, Peace, Spiritual Evolution, Love, Utopia, etc.

We're not meant to be super beings; they aren't necessary to our purpose here.

If we're not meant to be "super beings" than there wouldn't be free will that allowed us to get to where we are now. Figuring out the DNA codes to modify the limits.

I am content being a lowly Human, here to experience the good and bad of mortal life before moving on.

I am here for change, to spark intellectual debate, to help change the old status quo. If you're content, let me take you on trip to some inner city areas I've been to, or third world countries where you will see some things that will smack the contentness out of your mind.

Sorry to hear you need more.

Never said I need more. I'm experiencing a reality where everyone has broken bicycles with flat tires, when I just came from a place where we all have limitless Interstellar Anti-Gravity Ferraris.

Ironically, you speak of "ignorance, war and hatred" and then applaud genetically modified babies?

You thinks its all so bad? If your wife is pregnant and the doctor tells you your baby will be born retarded, cerebral palsey, or some other way, and you have the power through stem cells to fix it before the baby is born, your not going to do it?

If you live your whole life in pain with a deformed spine and arthritis in all your joints, and a stem-cell cure comes around to finally give you relief, your not going to take it?

The advances they're discovering aren't for you, they're for the psychopaths who want to become gods and overthrow God's old order. It's satanic at its core.

Says who? Of all the people being born, there are various humans with various mutations being born. Mutations based on parents, lineage, environment, etc (for example a small percent of humans are born immune to HIV) Are they Demons?.... considering those Immune persons are having their blood studied for a potential vaccine and cure.

Seriously, who would want to live 700 years

If you believe in the Bible, Methesulah did. Did he have a say in how long he lived and did he want to live that long?

reply to post by dominicus


Dominicus,

No matter how hard you try to abstract yourself into body, soul and spirit, you are still talking about one thing—yourself. Whether you think yourself one or the other, there's no change in your entirety. If you call your body a prison, then you are a prison. You would not be able to "remember pre-existing" without first being able to remember; and remembering requires DNA, a body, being an organism, flow of blood, h2o, etc. etc. etc.

Escaping the body is easy: destroy it. Either emancipate yourself or toughen up.

I think it's time to take responsibility for yourself. One cannot just discard his physicalness and pass it off as evil or unnecessary without doing a disfavour to his existence and himself.

So did God create us in his image or not?

reply to post by k1k1to

remember YOU are NOT your body...i hope you understand, just because your physical vessel is weak and broken does not mean that your spiritual one is...the moment that you let your body imprison your soul is when you consider yourself as being "your body" because you are not...

Yelling and pleading does not make it true. Try cutting a finger off and tell me again you are not your body.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


When they say he created us in his image, I cannot help but consider the obvious - our perception is extremely limited, so how can we know exactly what the image is? For all we know, we're staring at a mere pixel of what we're supposed to be.

With that in mind, I think it's premature to make any sort of decision about our future, except for one thing: make it better. And by better, I mean for everyone who is and will be. That includes the world...and our species.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Yelling and pleading does not make it true. Try cutting a finger off and tell me again you are not your body.

That's just nerve endings, sending pain up through the nervous system into to the brain, to trigger a response, to do something about it. There is an Observer in all this, observing this process.
You can have all your limbs cut off surgically, and still exist, therefore, you are not your limbs. You are then left with a trunk and a head. You can be blind, deaf, no taste buds, no smell .....and still exist. So no we're left with a head (minus the senses) and a trunk. Amongst those parts, where are "you" in them?

You would not be able to "remember pre-existing" without first being able to remember; and remembering requires DNA, a body, being an organism, flow of blood, h2o, etc. etc. etc.

That's all up for debate and isn't "Universal Fact". I sometimes leave the body, as consciousness, and still retain the ability to Experience and Observe independent of the body, though proving so "scientifically" will take perhaps a few more decades, or centuries depending on who's agenda is funding scientific research.

Escaping the body is easy: destroy it. Either emancipate yourself or toughen up.

We're here in the blink of an eye, a flash. This Avatar Suit's time will come, no doubt, no worries.

I think it's time to take responsibility for yourself. One cannot just discard his physicalness and pass it off as evil or unnecessary without doing a disfavour to his existence and himself.

There has been a deep rooted psychological schism in me ever since being a child. From the earliest memory I have been questioning, wondering, and not at peace with this "heavy suit" on. Remembering that I have pre-existed as bodiless consciousness revealed why there was a schism in the first place, so now there is much more being at ease, especially being able to "pop out" every once in a while a stretch my true self. You'll see one day, the great equalizer, death, visits all eventually, and then when you turn up on the other side, you'll say "Holy Crap, all those that said we are bodiless consciousness were right."

So did God create us in his image or not?

The part of us created in his image is the Observer/Awareness/Consciousness ....which is like a drop of water, having separated from the Infinite Ocean of Consciousness.

I do not believe in a "God" in the judeo-christian sense that humans think of it, or organized religion. But I am totally with you. I think our bodies are a prison for our minds/souls and the planet is a prison for our bodies. I don't think any of us are getting off this rock for a very long time, if ever. I think we'll just be recycled over and over and over.

Originally posted by Malynn
I do not believe in a "God" in the judeo-christian sense that humans think of it, or organized religion. But I am totally with you. I think our bodies are a prison for our minds/souls and the planet is a prison for our bodies. I don't think any of us are getting off this rock for a very long time, if ever. I think we'll just be recycled over and over and over.

The thing is, there are systems/philosophies of thought that discuss attaining enlightenment as the One way ticket to never again being recycled here.

Its mentioned in Buddhism, Hinduism, Neo-Platonic Philosophies, and various other branches of thought.
Makes you at least think aye?

reply to post by dominicus


It does. Or it could be another control mechanism used to soothe people into thinking there is a way out.

reply to post by dominicus

That's just nerve endings, sending pain up through the nervous system into to the brain, to trigger a response, to do something about it. There is an Observer in all this, observing this process.

Yes. You are this observer. You are observing yourself feel pain.

You can have all your limbs cut off surgically, and still exist, therefore, you are not your limbs.

Correction: therefore you exist, but without limbs. Without limbs, how can one remember holding a loved one's hand? Throwing a fastball? Running through a field? They cannot.

You are then left with a trunk and a head. You can be blind, deaf, no taste buds, no smell .....and still exist. So no we're left with a head (minus the senses) and a trunk.

Correction: Still exist, but as deaf, dumb and blind, without limbs. Now how closer to being a spirit are you? You would have nothing to dream about, nothing to remember but darkness.

Amongst those parts, where are "you" in them?

Lying there, doing nothing—a trunk and a head on a table, incomplete unaware and unconscious, no pain, no memory, no intuition, no idea, no self, and hence, no spirit.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Correction: Still exist, but as deaf, dumb and blind, without limbs. Now how closer to being a spirit are you? You would have nothing to dream about, nothing to remember but darkness.

Have you ever heard of sensory deprivation tanks? I'm sure you have. You are suspended in fluid in such a manner that all of your senses are cut off. You are alive, but you see nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing. Experimental subjects in such conditions began to imagine entire worlds, complete with sensation. In their imaginary worlds, they experienced everything they could with their bodies - but without their bodies.

What does that tell you?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Yes. You are this observer. You are observing yourself feel pain.

If you "believe" as the status quo does, then your take on this relies on what science says, by grasping onto the belief that the Observer is reliant on a physical brain/body.

If you dig further, and spend a few years observing the observer, and inquiring into this Observer and its whereabouts, it will eventually lead into the Observer becoming non-locally loosened from the physical body and able to remember having pre-existed. There are so many philosophical systems, blueprints, and branches of thought that discuss this and show you how to experience this for yourself.

So for me, consciousness needing the physical body to exist, is utter and pure bullocks, and is a crude belief akin to flat earth theory. It is basically a matter of time before science proves that consciousness is non-local. Problem is, we live with broken bicycles that have flat tires, so progress in certain branches of thought/science is like watching a turtle travel from N.Y. to L.A.

Human consciousness arising from and being reliant on physicality, is such utter crap to me, that I would go "ALL IN: at the poker table that this is false, even if the chips were my life, house, car, everyone I know, everything I own. That's how sure this bet is

Correction: Still exist, but as deaf, dumb and blind, without limbs. Now how closer to being a spirit are you? You would have nothing to dream about, nothing to remember but darkness.

Your limiting a person's existence to the time they are born in/as a body. So its a relative take and since you are not in that condition, it is only speculation that you would then have only darkness. Just like many blind people have synesthesia and a higher aural sense and ability, who's to say a trunk/head with no limbs wouldn't adapt to that condition with some heightened sense of Intuition, or something else for that matter ....

...though at this point were both speculating and "don't know" for sure. Although I'll still bet trillions, if I had them, that the Observer is non-local consciousness.

Lying there, doing nothing—a trunk and a head on a table, incomplete unaware and unconscious, no pain, no memory, no intuition, no idea, no self, and hence, no spirit.

Speculation. A mere belief.

Thanks for joining the thread though. Our back & forths always tend to wrestle certain aspects of logic. reason, and intuition

Originally posted by dominicus
I did a thread in the Philosophy Forum the Other day entitled"
The body. A Prison or a Temple?

I missed this thread. Thanks for the heads-up - I will check it out.

Originally posted by dominicus
If God made these bodies, why not make them with all those improvements that scientists now have access to, from the very Get-go? It's these physical limitations, weaknesses, and spiritual veils placed on us (through the body) that is causing the majority of ignorance, war, hatred, and disgusting acts in this world.

This is a very valid point. If these bodies were created by God, he did a pretty crappy job of it! I say this in part because I do not believe in God as the Creator-God, though I am certain the Divine Person exists. I think I have spent more time on ATS writing about this myth of God as Creator-God than any other topic. This notion of God as Creator is based on our own presumptions of separation, emotional needs as children, etc. What about God being perfectly prior to (though not inherently separate from) all conditions and also not causative? If we accept that the Divine exists, why do we then assume almost automatically that God is Creator?

I appreciate your insight in this matter, dominicus - it once again points to the flaws in assuming God as Creator, the one who created the body-mind, is in charge of all conditions, etc., etc. I actually wanted to start a thread asking if anyone could even prove they are the body-mind, but your topic here seems to allow for that consideration too.

I don't assume our body-minds are temples, although they certainly should be cared for with proper diet, exercise, etc. But I am not saying this because I care about great health as an end result. Rather, I find that the depth of Divine Communion, being/feeling, love, and heart-intelligence is more readily available if the body-mind is not physically toxic.

Plus, how can one love God fully with all one's strength if we spend our lives toxifying these body-minds? So obviously supportive disciplines taken on for the sake of bodily equanimity can serve the process of recognizing our actual reality here. Such disciplines can help free up one's generally bodily-bound attention for going deeper.

The more one shines with the love of God, the more temple-like (full of light) the body-mind may appear. But it still is going to die, so I wouldn't want to invest my entire life into just living based on the body-mind's patterns and tendencies and/or wanting to make it like a temple for its own sake.

If it becomes more temple-like in the process of loving the Divine, so be it. But it could just as easily become wretched, diseased, and disgusting. So either way, its inherent mortal limits need to be transcended for us to fully understand who we are.

Are these body-minds a prison? Only if we solely identify with them, which of course we tend to. However, I have never heard a convincing argument proving that anyone is simply the body-mind. Can anyone actually prove they are the body-mind? But this assumption seems to just be accepted without question! And from there, many of us then assume God exists as Creator of all of this, etc., etc.

Thanks for the very thought-provoking thread!

Great refreshing thread! S+F!

I guess the physical and mental deterioration of the human condiction(which also makes evolution bs) has become so unbearably blatant in these days that it begs the question. Yes one has to wonder what kind of omniscient, omnipotent God creates such failure? Or are we just a slave spieces of merely superior beings?



Standing ovation for this post!
reply to post by bb23108