Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

That passage wasn't even written yet when Paul penned the book of Romans.

Paul would have been aware of Peter's message since it was an essential Christian doctrine.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

You just effectively made Romans 10:9-10 a false verse by your doctrine.

I did not.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Or you believe the Holy Spirit misled all the believers in Rome by forgetting or purposely ommitting that aspect of what a person must believe to "shall be saved".

The book of Romans was written to already saved Christians. They would have understood Paul's words to include repentance and baptism.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew

 

I asked you for evidence to support your claim that Jesus' baptism "formula", from Matthew, was never used. Nothing you posted does that.

The apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. The early Christians baptized in the name of Jesus. Scholars agree that the early way of baptizing was in the name of Jesus.

Originally posted by adjensen

Secondly, if you want to be taken seriously, stop evading simple yes or no questions -- by doing so, you demonstrate the irrationality of your theology and prove that it can't stand up to even simple scrutiny.

I don't feel the need to re-answer questions whenever you decide to ask them again. I think I have made it clear that only baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is valid. It is not magic as you claim, it is speaking the name that the one being baptized into, has faith in.

It is time to stop calling faith, "witchcraft".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Read the very latest, Jesus says it again "faith alone" is not true.

Think VERY carefully Colbe, and follow this closely. God doesn't speak to any prophet and tell them things that are directly contradictory to His written Word. Ephesians 2:8-9 says exactly the opposite. Jesus said that those who believe on Him already hath eternal life. We are to test the people claiming to be prophets, many have come which are false prophets. False prophets ALWAYS teach against the Word of God.

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul said that is anyone, any prophet, any apostle, or even any angel who came teaching another gospel than the one he did (1 Corinthians chapter 15), then let them be accursed. (Anathema in the Greek which literally means "damned to hell".



Anyone saying faith alone is not how people are saved are directly contradicting Ephesians 2:8-9.

edit on 4-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say "faith alone". It says, "faith". Faith always includes action, unless it is dead.

The man is still a false prophet though.

reply to post by truejew


Neither of those is an answer to a simple question.

Please provide the evidence that the church never allowed for baptism in the "formula" that Jesus stated in Matthew. You have said that never happened, and provided zero evidence for it.

Secondly, I have posted a yes/no question that you have never answered. Please answer it now, or your failure to do so will admit that it presents an either/or scenario that your theology cannot answer.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Read the very latest, Jesus says it again "faith alone" is not true.

Think VERY carefully Colbe, and follow this closely. God doesn't speak to any prophet and tell them things that are directly contradictory to His written Word. Ephesians 2:8-9 says exactly the opposite. Jesus said that those who believe on Him already hath eternal life. We are to test the people claiming to be prophets, many have come which are false prophets. False prophets ALWAYS teach against the Word of God.

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul said that is anyone, any prophet, any apostle, or even any angel who came teaching another gospel than the one he did (1 Corinthians chapter 15), then let them be accursed. (Anathema in the Greek which literally means "damned to hell".



Anyone saying faith alone is not how people are saved are directly contradicting Ephesians 2:8-9.

edit on 4-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Hi NTT, thanks for your civil reply,

If you read the many messages to Kevin Barrett, over and over again, Our Lord says "faith alone" is not true. Protestants stubbornly will not let go of this heresy, so much so, other heresies come stem from it. "Faith alone" originates from Martin Luther's head not God. There are many verses in the Gospel that show his heresy Sola Fide is false.

And "private judgment" of Scripture is heresy. God gave the authority to interpret Scripture to the same Church
who compiled the Bible, the RCC. The reason you should read the Douay-Rheims Bible. The footnotes will
help you with difficult verses and help you to see why the Church teaches what she does NTT. www.drbo.org...

Look at Ephesians 2:8-9 in context. Paul is talking about God's grace in the preceding verse and you should follow Christ in "good works"..."walk in them" as verse 10 says. Now read the footnote to Ephesians 2:9. It is God's grace that saves us not our own power. God's unmerited grace does not negate the "works" of our lives.


Eph 2: 7-10:
That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

[9] Not of works: as of our own growth, or from ourselves; but as from the grace of God.


We're not robots. "Faith Alone" doesn't make you do anything, you have to cooperate with God's grace AND choose to act in a good way. They go together, God's free grace and our free will choice.

Martin Luther wanted to throw out the Book of James, it conflicted with his false teaching. It is the only place in the Gospel you see the words "faith alone." Kinda funny.

James 2:24
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and NOT by faith only?

You can not pick and choose certain verses in Holy Scripture and ignore others.



Have a quiet and prayerful Sunday NTT,


colbe

Hi, guys, sorry to butt in again, but I have a favor to ask. If truejew ever decides to answer my question, my second request for an answer can be found here, www.abovetopsecret.com... please send a cop car to my house to wake me up. I'd hate to miss his reply, if there ever is one.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

Read the very latest, Jesus says it again "faith alone" is not true.

Think VERY carefully Colbe, and follow this closely. God doesn't speak to any prophet and tell them things that are directly contradictory to His written Word. Ephesians 2:8-9 says exactly the opposite. Jesus said that those who believe on Him already hath eternal life. We are to test the people claiming to be prophets, many have come which are false prophets. False prophets ALWAYS teach against the Word of God.

There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul said that is anyone, any prophet, any apostle, or even any angel who came teaching another gospel than the one he did (1 Corinthians chapter 15), then let them be accursed. (Anathema in the Greek which literally means "damned to hell".



Anyone saying faith alone is not how people are saved are directly contradicting Ephesians 2:8-9.

edit on 4-5-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say "faith alone". It says, "faith". Faith always includes action, unless it is dead.

The man is still a false prophet though.

edit on 5-5-2013 by truejew because: (no reason given)

You have just given example TJ of why Christ established an authority, so we can know.

A human person, God's authority, His leader here, the Pope, keeps Christians grounded in the God given true teachings of the faith. There is only one faith so one Church. This is why...

You disagree with NTT about Ephesians 2:8-9. Who is right? It goes on and on the disagreements.

I underlined your "Faith always includes action"...what do you mean? Even if I have "faith" I still can sin or
do nothing which is omission instead of following Christ.

As I shared with NTT, Protestants misunderstand about faith because of the rotten heresy of "faith alone."

Some Protestants insist that it IS the faith that does the work in us NOT we ourselves. Faith (God's GIFT to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it does NOT make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings "perfect" or "complete" faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given NOT a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one's own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ's hand (Romans 8:35-39).


I like how you keep on replying to all but not your beliefs.


God bless you,

Originally posted by charles1952
Hi, guys, sorry to butt in again, but I have a favor to ask. If truejew ever decides to answer my question, my second request for an answer can be found here, www.abovetopsecret.com... please send a cop car to my house to wake me up. I'd hate to miss his reply, if there ever is one.

We need humor, hope truejew takes it with a good heart charles.

TJ, go read page 31 and charles' help, would you?

I need to memorize the last two sentences.


Some Protestants insist that it IS the faith that does the work in us NOT we ourselves.

Faith (God's GIFT to man through His Word /Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it does NOT make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life).

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by truejew

 

Neither of those is an answer to a simple question.

Just because my answer is not the answer you are wanting, doesn't mean it's not an answer.

Originally posted by adjensen

Please provide the evidence that the church never allowed for baptism in the "formula" that Jesus stated in Matthew. You have said that never happened, and provided zero evidence for it.

The apostles always baptized in the name of Jesus according to the book of Acts, their own writings, the writings of those who followed, and scholars of Church history. In addition, whether Jesus stated Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or not is debated among scholars due to the fact that the apostles did not baptize that way and that it is different than Luke's telling of what Jesus said.

It is time to leave your brainwashed state behind and accept the evidence.

reply to post by charles1952


My original goal was to discuss the topic. It has since become to defend the Church against attacks from Adjensen, NOTurTypical, Colbie.

reply to post by truejew

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say "faith alone". It says, "faith". Faith always includes action, unless it is dead.

Action COMES from genuine faith, action doesn't produce faith. Faith is the first cause, action is the secondary consequence.

reply to post by truejew

Paul would have been aware of Peter's message since it was an essential Christian doctrine.

Ahh.. so "essential" that he didn't bother to even mention it in a verse so monumentally critical to who would be saved or not saved in Romans 10:9-10?

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Baptizing into Jesus Christ is not magic as you claim, it is the only way the Church has baptized in it's almost 2000 year history. The question you should be asking yourself is... Why are you fighting against Christian baptism so strongly when you claim to be descended from Peter who said...

I wouldn't be so dogmatic about it.

We could just as easily demand that all baptism be said in the exact phrase that Christ said to baptize. (Matthew 28:19). But that's not the focus, it's not about what words come from the ministering person's mouth, but the Person of Christ and identifying with His death and resurrection.

According to the apostles and the early Christians, the name of Jesus was spoken over the person being baptized. It is what identifies the person with His death.

No, it's already been shown to you that "in the name of" means "in/under the authority of".

reply to post by colbe

We're not robots. "Faith Alone" doesn't make you do anything, you have to cooperate with God's grace AND choose to act in a good way. They go together, God's free grace and our free will choice.

Again, genuine faith produces works. And works do not save, they are just evidence/or fruit if you will of someone who has genuine faith. The Holy Spirit produces the fruit of the Spirit. It is God Himself who changes us through Sanctification to both will to and to do His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Paul would have been aware of Peter's message since it was an essential Christian doctrine.

Ahh.. so "essential" that he didn't bother to even mention it in a verse so monumentally critical to who would be saved or not saved in Romans 10:9-10?

As I said before, the members of the Church at Rome already were saved. They knew that what Paul wrote, did not take away from the necessity of repentance and water baptism.

reply to post by Snsoc


It is not scriptural to pray to saints, nor is it scriptural to pray to angels. There are many examples in the old testament showing the sinful way of early Christians. They began to worship / pray to / revere holy figures, even in the days of Genesis, like the Catholics do now days. Which was sinful.

Or rather TURNS into sin.

Mary cannot hear you. Mary is in heaven at rest. She is a woman, she was a holy woman, but she cannot hear you and most likely doesn't even know your name. Yet.

The rituals or traditions of the Catholic church is sinful. Candles wont help you, fancy things wont help you, praying to an archangel wont help you, he is not omnipotent and cannot hear you, God will send angels your way if needed. I pray only to the trinity. I pray to Yahweh, Yeshua, and sometimes ill ASK the holy spirit specific things, but i do not exactly pray to him. Christ is my main concern.

Time and time again the Bible rebukes those that worship or give praise to angels or men, even in the spur of the moment. They are rebuked, and told Christ is their main concern, or they are nothing but messengers and Jesus / God is all powerful and deserves the glory.

----

As long as you believe Christ died on the cross for your sins, arose three days later, and he is the ONLY way ever that you can get to heaven / the father. Then i believe you are saved. Living the Christian life is the hardest thing you can do, but i believe being saved is one of the easiest.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Baptizing into Jesus Christ is not magic as you claim, it is the only way the Church has baptized in it's almost 2000 year history. The question you should be asking yourself is... Why are you fighting against Christian baptism so strongly when you claim to be descended from Peter who said...

I wouldn't be so dogmatic about it.

We could just as easily demand that all baptism be said in the exact phrase that Christ said to baptize. (Matthew 28:19). But that's not the focus, it's not about what words come from the ministering person's mouth, but the Person of Christ and identifying with His death and resurrection.

According to the apostles and the early Christians, the name of Jesus was spoken over the person being baptized. It is what identifies the person with His death.

No, it's already been shown to you that "in the name of" means "in/under the authority of".

I have said that speaking the name shows who's authority the person is being baptized in. The evidence shows that the name was spoken.

Acts 22:16 KJV
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

In addition, there are no reputable scholars that teach a no name baptism as you are teaching

Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by Snsoc

 

It is not scriptural to pray to saints, nor is it scriptural to pray to angels. There are many examples in the old testament showing the sinful way of early Christians. They began to worship / pray to / revere holy figures, even in the days of Genesis, like the Catholics do now days. Which was sinful.

Or rather TURNS into sin.

Mary cannot hear you. Mary is in heaven at rest. She is a woman, she was a holy woman, but she cannot hear you and most likely doesn't even know your name. Yet.

The rituals or traditions of the Catholic church is sinful. Candles wont help you, fancy things wont help you, praying to an archangel wont help you, he is not omnipotent and cannot hear you, God will send angels your way if needed. I pray only to the trinity. I pray to Yahweh, Yeshua, and sometimes ill ASK the holy spirit specific things, but i do not exactly pray to him. Christ is my main concern.

Time and time again the Bible rebukes those that worship or give praise to angels or men, even in the spur of the moment. They are rebuked, and told Christ is their main concern, or they are nothing but messengers and Jesus / God is all powerful and deserves the glory.

----

As long as you believe Christ died on the cross for your sins, arose three days later, and he is the ONLY way ever that you can get to heaven / the father. Then i believe you are saved. Living the Christian life is the hardest thing you can do, but i believe being saved is one of the easiest.

edit on 5-5-2013 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)

Thank you for your reply. I used to believe exactly as you do, brother. Let me ask you a few questions, if I could;


Do you believe that the saints (dead Christians in Heaven) and Mary are still part of the Body Of Christ?

Do you believe that the Body of Christ is strengthened by what each part supplies? (Ephesians 4:16)

If the answer to #1 & 2 is "yes," then how do you think that these dead Christians help us?

I think all they can do is pray.

When Catholics address a Christian in Heaven, we ask that person to pray for us. Just like asking people to pray for us on Earth. If I ask you to pray for me, I'm not praying to you or worshiping you.

Catholics do not pray to angels. Nor do we think candles or "fancy things" help us.

If one of those dead saints was "full" of grace, could it not be said that she was the person most able to assist us in our prayers?

Mary is full of grace (Luke 1:28). She's full, she can't get any more. Since grace saves us, she is the closest human to God.

I believe we're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. (Hebrews 12:1) I want every one of them in my corner. I don't want to miss a chance to have the top Christians praying for me.

And yes, I do think Mary knows my name. When we reach Heaven we "know as we are known." (1 Corinthians 13:12-13) The knowledge that we possess in Heaven is as complete and full as God's knowledge of us.