Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Well, what other churches teach that besides Apostolic/Oneness churches?

In the past, some of the Quakers were Apostolic.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

You have a massive pro lem with that teaching.

The Bible explicitly states that anyone who accepts the mark will spend eternity in Hell, but no verse explicitly saying that there's no chance of being saved for other sins that can be committed. In fact, John says that if we sin and confess that God is faithful and just to not only forgive those sins but to also cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

Sin is sin. If you can lose salvation for one sin, you can lose salvation for other sin. John taught if we repent, God will forgive us. He does not say God will forgive unrepentant sinners.

reply to post by truejew


For one thing, I never made the claim that God will forgive unrepentant sinners. So there isn't any good reason you'd even say that in rebuttal. Secondly, now you're totally in the realm of philosophy and left scripture long ago. There is no Biblical support for a Christian losing salvation due to a sin. We all make mistakes from time to time, and John gave the remedy (and included himself in the sentence) for having those sins forgiven and all our unrighteousness cleansed.

What's absurd is the idea that a particular sin would be so terrible that we would be less loved and forgiveable than we were before being saved to begin with.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Well, what other churches teach that besides Apostolic/Oneness churches?

In the past, some of the Quakers were Apostolic.

In the past?

So like I said previously, which you denied, only Apostolic/Oneness churches.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

For one thing, I never made the claim that God will forgive unrepentant sinners.

When someone is a Christian and then becomes an unrepentant sinner, they lose their salvation?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Well, what other churches teach that besides Apostolic/Oneness churches?

In the past, some of the Quakers were Apostolic.

In the past?

So like I said previously, which you denied, only Apostolic/Oneness churches.

That is an example. A person can still attend a Catholic/Protestant Church and not be Catholic/Protestant in faith. There is nothing in the Bible that says what type of church you attend saves you. However I would recommend they leave due to the persecution they would receive by the others.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Well, what other churches teach that besides Apostolic/Oneness churches?

In the past, some of the Quakers were Apostolic.

In the past?

So like I said previously, which you denied, only Apostolic/Oneness churches.

That is an example. A person can still attend a Catholic/Protestant Church and not be Catholic/Protestant in faith. There is nothing in the Bible that says what type of church you attend saves you. However I would recommend they leave due to the persecution they would receive by the others.

So an apostate more or less?

And what persecution? Do you have evidence Catholic and Protestant parishioners are persecuting people in their church?

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

For one thing, I never made the claim that God will forgive unrepentant sinners.

When someone is a Christian and then becomes an unrepentant sinner, they lose their salvation?

Have you ever read Philippians 2:13?

And what about the rest of my point you edited out in your response?

reply to post by Snsoc

Dear Snsoc,

This thread has made me do something unusual. I actually went to the Mods to make the requests for "off-topic" labels.

It may be that the adjensen, truejew, Wildtimes, discussion will bear fruit. If it does, it will certainly be different fruit from that which you expected.

Again, I am at your disposal if I can be of assistance. I ask God to bless the posters in this thread and to show them love, peace, and truth.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Well, what other churches teach that besides Apostolic/Oneness churches?

In the past, some of the Quakers were Apostolic.

In the past?

So like I said previously, which you denied, only Apostolic/Oneness churches.

That is an example. A person can still attend a Catholic/Protestant Church and not be Catholic/Protestant in faith. There is nothing in the Bible that says what type of church you attend saves you. However I would recommend they leave due to the persecution they would receive by the others.

So an apostate more or less?

And what persecution? Do you have evidence Catholic and Protestant parishioners are persecuting people in their church?

You calling them "apostates" is evidence of that persecution and in the past burning at the stake was used. If it happened in the past, there is possibility of it happening again. I would not take that risk. I would come out of them and be separate.

reply to post by truejew


I would have to say yes, a Christian can lose their salvation.

1 John 3:6, 9-10.

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them. They cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

That seems to say that Christians don't sin, and if they do, they're not Christians. We could get into an argument about what "goes on sinning" means, but how many times can you sin before it's considered "ongoing?" Once? Twice? A hundred times? Scripture isn't clear.

It seems to me that "goes on sinning" means "sinning without repentance." If this is the case, then we can say that if one has unrepented sin, one is no longer God's child. One regains that adopted status upon confession.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Snsoc

 

But in context, Paul declares himself to be the chief of sinners not because he lived in unrepentant or wilful sin at the time of the writing of that epistle, but because he had before conversion persecuted the church.

But that sin was forgiven. it's under the Blood, it's cast into the sea of forgetfulness. So why does Paul still speak of this sin in the present tense?

He also refers to his struggle with sin in the present tense in other places. (Romans 7:14-25)

reply to post by NOTurTypical



Hitler was said to be saved according to your definition of saved. He then went on to commit some horrible sins. Do you say that Hitler lost his salvation?

Originally posted by Snsoc
reply to post by truejew

 

I would have to say yes, a Christian can lose their salvation.

1 John 3:6, 9-10.

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them. They cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

That seems to say that Christians don't sin, and if they do, they're not Christians. We could get into an argument about what "goes on sinning" means, but how many times can you sin before it's considered "ongoing?" Once? Twice? A hundred times? Scripture isn't clear.

It seems to me that "goes on sinning" means "sinning without repentance." If this is the case, then we can say that if one has unrepented sin, one is no longer God's child. One regains that adopted status upon confession.

edit on 24-4-2013 by Snsoc because: clarity

We seem to be in agreement on this.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Hitler was said to be saved according to your definition of saved. He then went on to commit some horrible sins. Do you say that Hitler lost his salvation?

No he wasn't. Read James 2. Any person who claims to have faith and has no fruit to show for it has a "dead faith".

reply to post by Snsoc


That verse says they never knew Him. So that doesn't say a Christian lost their salvation, that says that the person was never saved. You can't lkse something you don't possess to begin with.

reply to post by truejew


Calling an apostate an apostate isn't persecution. You can't be serious, we're talking about a hypothetical. There is no way to persecute hypothetical people for one thing, and for two if you polled the people who really have been persecuted, (martyrs), they would laugh hysterically at the idea that calling someone an apostate who is sitting in a particular church but rejecting that church is "persecution".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Snsoc

 

That verse says they never knew Him. So that doesn't say a Christian lost their salvation, that says that the person was never saved. You can't lkse something you don't possess to begin with.

And I think if you lose your salvation it retroactively cancels ever knowing Him. Matthew 7:21-23 backs this up. People are standing in front of Jesus on Judgement Day, telling Him that they cast out demons in His name and did miracles, and He says, "I never knew you." Non-believers can't cast out demons and do miracles in Christ's name, so these must be believers who sinned. And He says "I never knew you."

Originally posted by Snsoc

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Snsoc

 

That verse says they never knew Him. So that doesn't say a Christian lost their salvation, that says that the person was never saved. You can't lkse something you don't possess to begin with.

And I think if you lose your salvation it retroactively cancels ever knowing Him. Matthew 7:21-23 backs this up. People are standing in front of Jesus on Judgement Day, telling Him that they cast out demons in His name and did miracles, and He says, "I never knew you." Non-believers can't cast out demons and do miracles in Christ's name, so these must be believers who sinned. And He says "I never knew you."

Not so fast. The Jews had provisions for casting out demons as well, but what made them marvel when Christ did it was because He just commanded them out. Jesus says they could also cast them out when they accuse Him of doing it by the power of Beelzebub. He asks them by what power they also cast them out. Secondly, at the Great White Throne judgment Christ is speaking about, every person who ever lived is going to be calling Him LORD. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. What Jesus does say about those people is that He will tell them "I NEVER knew you". So that's specific, those people were never His sheep, never Christians because Jesus said He knows His sheep and they know Him.

That's certainly not a proof-text that a Christian can loose their salvation, that proves that those who will be lost never had salvation in the first place. And what's even more telling about that exchange is the people who will be arguing with Christ make no mention of His shed blood and death on the cross, but point to their own works that they're trusting in to justify themselves. They claim "I did this and I did that". That's a scathing rebuttal to those who think their works justify them to God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Calling an apostate an apostate isn't persecution. You can't be serious, we're talking about a hypothetical. There is no way to persecute hypothetical people for one thing, and for two if you polled the people who really have been persecuted, (martyrs), they would laugh hysterically at the idea that calling someone an apostate who is sitting in a particular church but rejecting that church is "persecution".

History has shown that when Catholics/Protestants use words such as "apostate", "heretic", ... That the hate that causes persecution is backing it. All that is holding it back right now is there are laws against murdering "apostates", "heretics"... The world is heading towards those laws being changed.