I Need a Muslim (or Somebody) to Make This News Understandable and Acceptable.

Dear ATSers,

I finally get a chance to quote an article from RT. I understand that that is the news source that no ATSer questions. So, assuming it's accurate reporting, it appears to be so stupid and offensive that there must be an explanation. Here's the story:

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia has said that all churches in the Arabian Peninsula must be destroyed. The statement prompted anger and dismay from Christians throughout the Middle East.

Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah made the controversial statement in a response to a question from a Kuwaiti NGO delegation. A Kuwaiti parliamentarian had called for a ban on the construction of new churches in February, but so far the initiative has not been passed into law. The NGO, called the Society of the Revival of Islamic Heritage, asked the Sheikh to clarify what Islamic law says on the matter.

The Grand Mufti, who is the highest official of religious law in Saudi Arabia, as well as the head of the Supreme Council of Islamic Scholars, cited the Prophet Mohammed, who said the Arabian Peninsula is to exist under only one religion.

The Sheikh went on to conclude that it was therefore necessary for Kuwait, being a part of the Arabian Peninsula, to destroy all churches on its territory.

As for Saudi Arabia, all religions other than Islam are banned and there are no churches, although a small minority of Christians is theoretically allowed to practice their religion in the privacy of their own home.

“Considering the hysteria that besets the West whenever non-authoritative individuals offend Islam – for instance, a fringe, unknown pastor – imagine what would happen if a Christian counterpart to the Grand Mufti, say the Pope, were to declare that all mosques in Italy must be destroyed; imagine the nonstop Western media frenzy that would erupt, all the shrill screams of 'intolerance' and 'bigot,' demands for apologies if not resignation, nonstop handwringing by sensitive politicians, and worse,” Raymond Ibrahim of Jihad Watch, a blog critical of extremist Islamic laws, wrote.
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Despite the sensational news value of the story, the Western media has been remarkably silent. No major news services have covered the story yet. Ibrahim argues that the Grand Mufti gets a free pass even when he incites Muslims to destroy churches because Saudi Arabia is an ally of the United States.

rt.com...

Is that the reason? Is this really not a reflection on Islam, but rather an idea put forward by the United States? Did the CIA smear his Quoran with a psychotropic drug? Is the Grand Mufti a mind controlled MK-ULTRA subject doing the will of his American handlers?

I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist and I'm having a tough time coming up with a possible explanation, so I'm turning to ATSers, particularly Muslims, for help with this.

With respect,
Charles1952

I find this sad that there isn't outrage by Muslims about this.
I was raised a Christian and believe in a god(though I rarely go to church)and I would be outraged if there was destruction of all places of worship of all religions apart from my own - its so sad and it always seems to be the same religion spreading hatred and destruction.
I understand that there are always "crazies" in any religion but people from that religion speak out about it, they don't remain silent.
Are there any Muslims who are embarrassed and ashamed of this? Would you do anything to try and stop it and change people's views? Would you post on Facebook for example about how wrong it is? I would if it was Christianity wanting to destroy mosques in my country
And for the record I have some Muslim friends along with friends of many other faiths- everybody has a right to worship their own religion.

reply to post by charles1952

While I am a somebody, I dont know that I can be of any help.

Its very easy to find "crazy" statements from everyone including both religious and political leaders.

These days, theres so much rhetoric, propaganda and noise that you have to learn to block it out.

Gone are the days of MK ULTRA. Who needs dedicated mind control when the media can get the masses running around like idiots within a matter of minutes. Its when people stop reacting hysterically that the media will stop trying to manipulate the sheeple.

In short, unless this actually starts to happen (the State sanctioned destruction of churches), I'd chalk it up as more noise.

Something else you may not have heard.

Australian international airline Qantas has made Dubai there stopover for all flights to Europe.

Qantas has therefore announced they will no longer serving any pork or pork products on their flights. they will no longer have foods that contain alcohol...(beef in red wine etc).

Charles, not everyone accepts RT as a reliable source.
however, i've known them to get more right than wrong or incomplete.

this is very disturbing news, although, it's not surprising that western media is turning a blind eye (on command i presume)

and what's worse, none of the muslims that i know personally would willingly go against this command if indeed correct

now, that's a scary thought.

reply to post by gladtobehere

Dear gladtobehere,

You may be right, but I'm not sure this is an attempt at media manipulation. As RT points out, the western press hasn't been covering this and it's 2-3 weeks old. They would have jumped on it if they wanted to use it for propaganda, wouldn't they?

Its very easy to find "crazy" statements from everyone including both religious and political leaders.

Are we going to say, then, that this was a crazy statement that bears no relation to the Grand Mufti's position or any rational thought? A one time spasm?

I wonder also about the "State sanctioned" business. We know that groups of Moslems have torched churches in several countries without obvious penalties, are we getting close to state sanctioned with "plausible denial?"

I wonder also, why does the Grand Mufti think he can tell Kuwait what to do? And what if Kuwait says "Go have improper relations with a camel?" Can he punish them?

See why I need help with this?

With respect,
Charles1952

'm a Muslim living in Germany. When my grandparents moved to Germany almost a half century ago, there were no mosques for Muslims to pray. Gladly, the Germans/Christians allowed Muslims to pray in their Churches in a room with the Islamic carpets.

What most people don't know is, that Islam allows "The people of the Book" (i.e. Christians, Jews and Sabans) religious freedom in a Islamic country (i.e. under Sharia law) but the attidude towards other religious groups differs from time and place/country..

In Turkey, Iran, Libya and Syria for example you do have synagogues and churches. But in the recent years there have been more and more Missionaries, especially in Africa and they expect poor people they help to become Christians.

In the heart of Europe, Switzerland has banned the construction of minarettes and in Germany the construction of minarettes isn't easy either as getting the permission is a long procedure, I guess.

So, if you want my personal opinion on this matter:

Kuwait will probably not destruct any Church, if there's any. If the Kuwait population wanted to destroy Churches, they would have done it by long time. Also, I can imagine there are Christians in the Parliament (If they have any) and in the military, just as in Syria. I've personally never heard of this Grand Mufti, but I'll do a research on him and see how reliable he is. Perhaps I've seen some lectures of him without recognizing his name atm.

@ SoEpic: You said you would post something on facebook, showing your outrage if your country would have banned mosques. But yet you ask for Muslim opinion (and not those of Saudis)...

So, I'm challanging you. Post on facebook how the Vatican would never allow a mosque to be built in that autonomous region. How Switzerland has banned the construction of minarettes.

To put things into perspective, we have irrational decrees or rulings being made by Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders as well.

Just because they said it doesn't mean its going to take place.

A fellow Muslim here. I'm really sorry to hear about this because honestly, the leaders in the Middle East are just #ed up. We've been taught not to interfere with other religions yet these political leaders are doing things differently with the reason that they're doing it in the name of God. These leaders who are using religion for their actual political motives should be stopped soon...

reply to post by Kemal

Dear Kemal,

You've given me a lot to think about and I'll need a little time to come up with a decent response. I am curious about this, however:

@ OP: You said you would post something on facebook, showing your outrage if your country would have banned mosques. But yet you ask for Muslim opinion (and not those of Saudis)...

So, I'm challanging you. Post on facebook how the Vatican would never allow a mosque to be built in that autonomous region. How Switzerland has banned the construction of minarettes.

Are you sure you're talking about me? I don't have, and never have had, a facebook account. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Islam respects all the faiths beforehand and therefore I do not see how the Koran could promote the destruction of Christian churches. These sunni folk see to take their book literally though so they aren't the brighet bunch of scholars running around Stopping the construction of Churches or the worship of Christianity sounds like a modern decision, not of the Koran.

The Qur'anic View of the Jewish and Christian Scripture

1/ The Qur'an teaches that all scripture should be respected in the same way:

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray (4:136 AYA).

We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them (3:84 AYA).

2/ The Torah that was given to Moses, and the Gospel that was given to Jesus, are the scriptures that the Jews and Christians now possess:

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (7:157 MP).

And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession (2:89 MP).

Thus, the Qur'an is not referring to scripture that Jews and Christians use to possess in the past, but now are lost. Rather, the Torah given to Moses, and the Gospel given to Jesus, is the scripture that is with them (the Christians and Jews) and in their possession at the time of Muhammad.

Going by what the Koran actually says about the other faith's, the sheikh is nothing but a bs artist and a traitor to Islam.

It seems that in countries (Islamic) as well as NK (as prime example) that folks who convert to chritstian are being punished severely or worse. So naturally, if there is such anger against the christian religion, I am pretty sure they will likely remove christian churches. And I am sure not all muslims like that idea, as they surely do not mind others embracing another faith....unfortunately, if any muslims speak out, then they look as if they are siding with christians (or may be christians themselves) Too risky even for kindhearted folks to say anything in defense.

reply to post by DarknStormy, Zack241, and Kemal

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for your comments. It's easy for a non-Muslim American to hear such remarks over and over, and come to believe that they are spoken by people who have significant influence over Islamic thought and behavior. I'm relieved to hear that only some Moslems want to destroy churches, while others are far more tolerant.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by triplereiki


The problem with the likes of Saudi Arabia or the leadership to be more exact is that they have sold out their religion for wordly riches through oil and protection from the United States. To Islam, this is a major crime and the Koran actually states that the Saudi's may aswell be Jews or Christians.

The Saudi's can say what they like but when it comes down to it, they are the enemy of the original teachings of Islam. When you think about it, where are they sending Extremists etc? Into the countries that haven't sold themselves out to the West. The Saudi's are Zionist puppets.

reply to post by charles1952


It's ridiculous. When I think about it though it wouldn't surprise me. The Saudi's have been sending extremists to Syria who have also attacked and left thousands of Christians homeless or dead. The only reason why we are standing with them is because of their oil supply. I think if they ran out tommorow they would be annihilated for what they do to their people.

reply to post by charles1952


Oh, I've mistaken your post with that of "SoEpic".

I'm really sorry!

Heres the Saudi perspective on this matter from this link

For many Muslims, however, the rise of tolerance in Christianity looks less like maturity and self confidence than like the senescence of a religion in decline. [u[Christianity, these critics say, is losing its hold on the western mind. The rise in religious tolerance is the result of necessity — the churches are weak, the believers indifferent, and so Christians no longer have the inner conviction to stand up for their faith.

Just as Christian countries tolerate a range of vices and practices that in the past, when their faith was stronger, they opposed (homosexuality, abortion, sexual immorality of all kinds, blasphemy and obscenity), so now they also don’t care very much about what religion people profess because their own faith doesn’t mean all that much to the shrinking minority that still has one.

Islam, these Muslims say, is a stronger faith, less subject to erosion by the forces of modernity and the neo-paganism of consumer culture. Islamic intolerance of religious error reflects a faith that feels itself to be true and is not ashamed or embarrassed to insist on its core values and its historic ideas.

Don’t hold up your flabby faith and your immoral, secular societies to us as examples to imitate, these Muslim critics say. You are tolerant because you are decadent, open because you have lost the will and the strength to defend yourselves and your ideas.

I must say those are all some very good points.

Yes, Islam has resisted the ideas that have corrupted (former) Christian societies. Blasphemy is still severely punishable and homosexuals can't parade around like they do in Christian societies, in the west.

Christianity has evidently collapsed in the west... whatever is left is choking in the secular culture that allows the mocking of God and religion and glorifies the very things that Christians stand against. (And yet, I have seen some Christians uphold secular way of life as superior to what they perceive as "backwardness" of an Islamic theocracy.) Who knows, if Christianity still held the reigns to power in the US, things would be very different... and we would have Christian leaders calling for the destruction of mosques.

I guess those Muslims who I quoted don't see a purpose in accommodating a religion that they believe has become toothless and has failed to uphold its own values. Perhaps they are asserting themselves over a religion that they believe has self destructed... almost as if they are saying "if you can't stand with your head held high in your own lands, why should you set up shop here".

.

My personal view :
I am against the destruction of any churches in the middle east, which is pretty much an Islamic region. Those churches don't pose a direct threat to Islam or anybody else and therefore should remain.

God knows best.

Originally posted by Zack241
A fellow Muslim here. I'm really sorry to hear about this because honestly, the leaders in the Middle East are just #ed up. We've been taught not to interfere with other religions yet these political leaders are doing things differently with the reason that they're doing it in the name of God. These leaders who are using religion for their actual political motives should be stopped soon...

Hey, that looks just like here, except here they do it in the name of Economy.

reply to post by charles1952


Things do appear to be getting worse for Christians in Kuwait

18 Feb 2012

Kuwaiti MP's call for demolishing churches ignites controversy

4 May 2012

Kuwait's 50-member National Assembly voted overwhelmingly to impose the death penalty for blasphemy, Bloc tabled legislation to limit Christian churches and non-Muslim places of worship in Kuwait

23 Dec 2012

Kuwait liberals blast calls to ban Christmas celebration

So it isn't merely the Saudi Grand Mufti blowing off his rather large mouth. There really is a drive by legislators to limit non Muslim places of worship. And of course insulting Islam is a criminal offense (Kuwait a capital offense) as it is in all of the Islamic world.

Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula – Saudi Grand Mufti

reply to post by swan001


Hmm true but in your case however, it only affects the people in your country whereas these leaders in the Middle East are affecting all the Muslims in the world sadly :/ Oh how I wish there will be a leader in the near future who actually cares for the people and not for him/herself..