This coming Sunday, April 7th, Our Lord pours His unfathomable divine mercy on everybody who wishes

reply to post by colbe

Hi Jigger, Mistakes go against something right, whose right did we error from? How do we know what we did is wrong? The basic, God gives everyone a conscience...and much more... colbe

Hi Colbe, I must say this thread has been interesting. Thanks for that. I have a multiple scenario for you to consider:

1. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. Not a soul around. You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

2. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. You see a lone man walking a half mile away (too far to chase after). You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

3. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. You see a lone man walking fifty feet away. You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

4. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. You see a lone man walking ten feet away. You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

5. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. A lone man is right there and says, "That's my $20. I dropped it." You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

Now, if a god gave everyone a conscience then everyone will choose the same scenarios to call them a right thing to do, with the other scenarios a wrong thing to do. Do you believe everyone on the planet will choose the exact same ones? If you don't believe it, then the conscience you speak of was created by man through conditioning and life experiences. Not god.

I choose 1, 2, and 3 as okay to do. Number 4 is iffy. Number five is just mean. And yet, I know that even with number 1, somebody owned that money. So why would it be okay to take the money with no one around to claim it, and not okay to take it with the man standing right in front me? If I just left the money on the ground I'd consider myself a fool. I could weigh a thousand pros and cons on this, so our consciousness is far from being a solid foundation given to us by a god.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

Hi Jigger, Mistakes go against something right, whose right did we error from? How do we know what we did is wrong? The basic, God gives everyone a conscience...and much more... colbe

Hi Colbe, I must say this thread has been interesting. Thanks for that. I have a multiple scenario for you to consider:

1. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. Not a soul around. You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

2. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. You see a lone man walking a half mile away (too far to chase after). You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

3. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. You see a lone man walking fifty feet away. You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

4. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. You see a lone man walking ten feet away. You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

5. You find a $20 dollar bill on the sidewalk. A lone man is right there and says, "That's my $20. I dropped it." You pick up the money and put it in your pocket.

Now, if a god gave everyone a conscience then everyone will choose the same scenarios to call them a right thing to do, with the other scenarios a wrong thing to do. Do you believe everyone on the planet will choose the exact same ones? If you don't believe it, then the conscience you speak of was created by man through conditioning and life experiences. Not god.

I choose 1, 2, and 3 as okay to do. Number 4 is iffy. Number five is just mean. And yet, I know that even with number 1, somebody owned that money. So why would it be okay to take the money with no one around to claim it, and not okay to take it with the man standing right in front me? If I just left the money on the ground I'd consider myself a fool. I could weigh a thousand pros and cons on this, so our consciousness is far from being a solid foundation given to us by a god.

edit on 4/10/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

jigger,

..not meaning to argue, I think God's grace is the main foundation, His help to be good. You receive God's grace in your soul for the first time in Baptism and ONLY lose it when you commit a mortal sin. CONFESSION for the life of your soul. Conscience is God's help, a gift too. Wow, you're example of all the choices we face every moment.

We need to pray every day, most important, when we sin, confess our mortal sins to God otherwise our conscience becomes cloudy or we ignore it! Catholics have to go to Confession. Search the words below and you will find the entire writing that contains Pope John Paul quotes about conscience, better than I could ever say. Also, Read the Catechism, Part 3 -Life in Christ - Article 6 - Moral Conscience.

www.vatican.va...

+ + +

..."it is "the witness of God himself" calling you to obey the moral law, and is a person's "witness of his own faithfulness or unfaithfulness." This is the basis of the great dignity of the conscience: it derives from its witness to objective moral truth. (Veritatis Splendor, 57-58, 60)

Conscience is the means God has given us to make moral decisions. Our freedom demands that we use it: "When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking." (Catechism, 1777)
But we compromise this dignity of conscience if we haven't formed our conscience well, or when we do not take care to reason clearly and objectively. Again, Pope John Paul II teaches:

Jesus alludes to the danger of the conscience being deformed when he warns: "The eye is the lamp of the body. So if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is not sound, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" (Mt 6:22-23).
(Veritatis Splendor, 63)

Erroneous judgment
Conscience does not always judge properly. Out of ignorance or bad reasoning, it can judge wrongly.
Erroneous judgment is often our own fault, and can have many causes (from Catechism, 1791-2):
Lack of care in forming our conscience or our powers of reason Misunderstanding conscience Damage caused by repeated and habitual sin Following the bad example of others Rejection of Church teaching Ignorance of Christ and the Gospels Neglecting the work of our conversion to Christ Neglect of charity ....

reply to post by colbe

You receive God's grace in your soul for the first time in Baptism

When my daughter died at 1 month old, my wife totally freaked out because she was sure our daughter would spent eternity in hell because she wasn't baptized. I took her to a priest and he said what I had always believed; baptism is merely an initiation into the catholic faith. That's all.

you will find the entire writing that contains Pope John Paul quotes about conscience,

All of these teachings are based on the pope's belief in a god, and that belief comes from one book, the bible. There is absolutely no evidence of a god's input into our consciousness, otherwise every intellectually challenged person would not be able to escape god's input. Yet, so many of them have no idea about right and wrong. Psychopaths do not have a moral compass. To imply that a god gave us a conscience is to say that he is imperfect and weak because he didn't have the power to bestow a conscience on the mentally challenged.

Originally posted by colbe

We atone for our sins here by our sufferings, acts of love and prayers said. If not completed here, we make reparation over the veil in Purgatory.
.

So why did God bother sending Jesus to live on earth and die on the cross?...by your account it seem's we didn't need him.....

Hi everybody,

I haven't been posting, a dear family friend died unexpectedly Thursday. Today, I am stopping myself, trying not
to think about the loss of our friend.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

You receive God's grace in your soul for the first time in Baptism

When my daughter died at 1 month old, my wife totally freaked out because she was sure our daughter would spent eternity in hell because she wasn't baptized. I took her to a priest and he said what I had always believed; baptism is merely an initiation into the catholic faith. That's all.

you will find the entire writing that contains Pope John Paul quotes about conscience,

All of these teachings are based on the pope's belief in a god, and that belief comes from one book, the bible. There is absolutely no evidence of a god's input into our consciousness, otherwise every intellectually challenged person would not be able to escape god's input. Yet, so many of them have no idea about right and wrong. Psychopaths do not have a moral compass. To imply that a god gave us a conscience is to say that he is imperfect and weak because he didn't have the power to bestow a conscience on the mentally challenged.

I am sure jigger your beloved child is in the arms of God and growing up in Heaven. I don't know about the conscience of the mentally ill but there are some people who do horrid things that are tested and aren't crazy. You give two exceptions to say no to conscience. Read John Henry Newman's words below, he was Anglican and converted to the faith.

~ ~ ~

...There are the five proofs advanced by St. Thomas Aquinas to prove the existence of God. Two other proofs for the existence of God should be mentioned:
The Argument from Conscience. The most notable statement of this argument was written by John Henry Cardinal Newman:

"If, as is the case, we feel responsibility, are ashamed, are frightened, at transgressing the voice of conscience, this implies that there is one to whom we are responsible, before whom we are ashamed, whose claims upon us we fear. If, on doing wrong, we feel the same tearful, broken-hearted sorrow which overwhelms us in hurting a mother; if, on doing right, we enjoy the same sunny serenity of mind, the same soothing satisfactory delight which follows our receiving praise from a father, we certainly have within us the image of some person, to whom our love.. and veneration look, in whose smile we find our happiness, for whom we yearn, towards whom we direct our pleadings, in whose anger we are troubled and waste away. These feelings in us are such as require for their exciting cause an intelligent being; we are not affectionate towards a stone; we do not feel shame before a horse or dog; we have no remorse or compunction on breaking merely human law; yet so it is, conscience excites all these painful emotions: confusion, foreboding, self-condemnation; and on the other hand it sheds upon us a deep peace, a sense of security, a resignation and a hope, which there is no sensible, no earthly, object to elicit. "The wicked flees when no man pursueth." Then why does he flee? Whence his terror? Who is it that he sees in solitude, in darkness, in the hidden chambers of his heart? If the cause of these emotions does not belong to this visible world, the object towards which his perception is directed must be supernatural and divine; and thus the phenomena of conscience avail to impress the imagination with the picture of a supreme governor, a judge, holy, just, powerful, all-seeing, retributive, and is the creative principle of religion, as the moral sense is the principle of ethics.".... [Newman, Grammar of Assent, Chap. 5, Sec. 1]

reply to post by colbe


Sorry, Colbe, I find Aquinas' statement to be just wrong. His thoughts are all based on the belief in a supernatural being. Here's the line that hit me the most: we have no remorse or compunction on breaking merely human law.

There are many people (including myself) that won't murder - not because of a fear of spending eternity in hell, but out of fear of spending a lifetime in prison.

I would never think of getting rich from selling drugs simply because it's against the law of the society I live in. I might've done it if it wasn't against the law because I have no reservations about giving cigarettes to those that bum them from me. I won't give them to teenagers because it's against the law, not because it's against some god.

I would never take another man's wife because the man is my fellow human being. If I take from him I am making it okay for others to take from me. We don't need a god to be good.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

Sorry, Colbe, I find Aquinas' statement to be just wrong. His thoughts are all based on the belief in a supernatural being. Here's the line that hit me the most: we have no remorse or compunction on breaking merely human law.

There are many people (including myself) that won't murder - not because of a fear of spending eternity in hell, but out of fear of spending a lifetime in prison.

I would never think of getting rich from selling drugs simply because it's against the law of the society I live in. I might've done it if it wasn't against the law because I have no reservations about giving cigarettes to those that bum them from me. I won't give them to teenagers because it's against the law, not because it's against some god.

I would never take another man's wife because the man is my fellow human being. If I take from him I am making it okay for others to take from me. We don't need a god to be good.

jigger, your wife was Catholic and you never were?

Originally posted by colbe

jigger, your wife was Catholic and you never were?

Yeah, but I was lucky enough to doubt the very foundation of god. Even as a young teen I made my mother upset because I refused to believe that a god was never born and would never die.

If people start out skeptical, then it is so easy to find all of the outrageous fabrications in the bible. And, if people start out blindly believing in a god and the bible, then they will easily and eagerly swallow the rest of it.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

Sorry, Colbe, I find Aquinas' statement to be just wrong. His thoughts are all based on the belief in a supernatural being. Here's the line that hit me the most: we have no remorse or compunction on breaking merely human law.

There are many people (including myself) that won't murder - not because of a fear of spending eternity in hell, but out of fear of spending a lifetime in prison.

I would never think of getting rich from selling drugs simply because it's against the law of the society I live in. I might've done it if it wasn't against the law because I have no reservations about giving cigarettes to those that bum them from me. I won't give them to teenagers because it's against the law, not because it's against some god.

I would never take another man's wife because the man is my fellow human being. If I take from him I am making it okay for others to take from me. We don't need a god to be good.

I'd like to add one more thing to this: If someone murders, then they do it regardless of god AND the law. So, what's the point of a god?

Originally posted by Logos23

Originally posted by colbe

We atone for our sins here by our sufferings, acts of love and prayers said. If not completed here, we make reparation over the veil in Purgatory.
.

So why did God bother sending Jesus to live on earth and die on the cross?...by your account it seem's we didn't need him.....

Logo, thanks for your question....first,

What happened to your avatar pic? The other one was so cute, was that you?

Our Lord redeemed mankind, He OPENED Heaven. Redemption and justification are two different things. God is perfectly just, He forgives us our sins when we repent of our sins and confess them...STILL, there reparation to be made for our sins, confessed and unconfessed. Similar to breaking the neighbors window, you tell them, say you're sorry AND you must replace it. Understand too...

Everyone in Purgatory has been judged for Heaven, they died in the state of grace, they ALREADY confessed their mortal sins to God BEFORE death. The atonement for those confessed sins may not of been completed
before they died. This is why confession is so important, regular Confession to God of your mortal sins. Catholics have to do more, they must go to Confession.

We ATONE for our sins here by our crosses, sufferings, loving acts and prayers said and if not completed before we die, you do it over the veil in Purgatory. Here, better explained, read this, it's not too long. I tell you, the heresy of Jesus did it all on the Cross, "imputed" His perfect sacrifice and righteousness onto us, done deal, we are saved is a big fat lie. You remember in Revelation, it says, nothing unholy enters Heaven, it is true.

colbe

= = =

. ""The doctrine [of purgatory] can be stated briefly. Purgatory is a state of purification, where the soul that has fully repented of its sins but has not fully expiated them has removed from itself the last elements of uncleanliness. In purgatory all remaining love of self is transformed into love love of God. At death one's soul goes to heaven, if it is completely fit for heaven; to purgatory, if it is not quite fit for heaven, but not worthy of condemnation; or to hell, if it is completely unfit for heaven. Purgatory is a temporary state. Everyone who enters it will get to heaven, and, after the last soul leaves purgatory for heaven, purgatory will cease to exist. There will remain only heaven and hell." (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism)

In order to understand the point of purgatory, we need to understand the difference between salvation and sanctification on the one hand, and between punishment and atonement on the other. Salvation means being spared from damnation: we are saved from Hellfire. But being saved from Hell is not the same as being worthy of heaven—nor of being "ready" to enter this state. Salvation may come from grace, through faith—but heaven is for the holy. Merely wishing to be good, or indeed even trying to be good, does not make us actually good; we may strive to become pure while yet being sinful.

Moreover, when we wrong another person, we have a need to atone for that wrongdoing. This may be seen by way of how people once apologized: "I am sorry for doing X, how can I make this up to you?" This apology has two parts to it, a confession (I did X), and a first attempt at atonement. What can we do to make the wrong right? The atonement itself may often involve some sacrifice—which generally means some small suffering—on our part. We have, in other words, a sense of justice which kicks in even if the other person forgives us, so that even if they tell us that it is small matter to which we ought give no further thought, we might persist in asking if there is anything we can do for them to "make it better."

Salvation is a work of God's Own mercy for us, but true mercy pre-supposes justice. A part of that justice—indeed, the crucial part—was Christ's own passion, His suffering and death. This satisfied the main requirement of justice, an infinite sacrifice to make reparation for an infinite offense. Mercy is thus extended to us if we will accept it.

However, Christ's death and victory over death did not remove all suffering from the world. We can be saved from the worst punishment due to sin—spiritual death, that is, Hell; but there are also temporal effects of sin, effects which are only temporary. We can still suffer from injury or sickness or sadness, and we will all die eventually. These sufferings are for us an opportunity to bind our own suffering to Christ's to "help" atone for our own sins....

I included only an excerpt in my last post, here is a link to the full article....

www.niceneguys.com...

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

Sorry, Colbe, I find Aquinas' statement to be just wrong. His thoughts are all based on the belief in a supernatural being. Here's the line that hit me the most: we have no remorse or compunction on breaking merely human law.

There are many people (including myself) that won't murder - not because of a fear of spending eternity in hell, but out of fear of spending a lifetime in prison.

I would never think of getting rich from selling drugs simply because it's against the law of the society I live in. I might've done it if it wasn't against the law because I have no reservations about giving cigarettes to those that bum them from me. I won't give them to teenagers because it's against the law, not because it's against some god.

I would never take another man's wife because the man is my fellow human being. If I take from him I am making it okay for others to take from me. We don't need a god to be good.

Conscience is more than the fear of going to hell. I have a gut feeling, an unhappiness inside me, when say, I lie to someone.

And where do you think LAWS stem from from, the natural law and conscience. God has put Himself on our hearts by the natural law and conscience. Yes you need God to be good, God is the source of all good.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by colbe

jigger, your wife was Catholic and you never were?

Yeah, but I was lucky enough to doubt the very foundation of god. Even as a young teen I made my mother upset because I refused to believe that a god was never born and would never die.

If people start out skeptical, then it is so easy to find all of the outrageous fabrications in the bible. And, if people start out blindly believing in a god and the bible, then they will easily and eagerly swallow the rest of it.

+ + + + +

"Yeah", means yes, you were baptized Roman Catholic? If yes, you have a good Catholic mother. jigger,
you wouldn't breath your next breath if God didn't wish it. My friend just died, suddenly, went down hill
in a matter of two days. Only God knew the day she would die. I belong to God, I don't belong to myself.

You can't go to your death saying no, no, no to God. What if you're wrong, you are. Believe instead, look at
the emotional blessing here and promised future benefit of believing and living the faith.

People who deny God, I would think live in a permanent state of nothingness, no hope, just facing the
day to day crosses of being a human person all by themselves and nothing of joy to look forward to....



God bless you jigger!!!!~ and pray...begin to talk to God every day,

And where do you think LAWS stem from from, the natural law and conscience. God has put Himself on our hearts by the natural law and conscience. Yes you need God to be good, God is the source of all good.

reply to post by colbe


And now, here's a look at your brainwashing because you will deny this very VERY obvious flaw in your thinking. If god is the source of all good. If god is the source of all creation. If god is the source of EVERYTHING,

Then
god
is
the
source of
all
evil.

Look how important prophecy is...


Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in in it; for the time is near.

Thinking today of the revelation of Divine Mercy Jesus gave to St. Faustina in the 1930s.

Remember the plane that went down into the Hudson River a few years ago? Watch this short Youtube
about Jesus' Divine Mercy and that flight.


www.youtube.com...

You all know, I repeat often at ATS, Jesus wants everyone to become Roman Catholic. He is going to show the entire world, each person personally. Heaven says "soon" in the messages of Heaven.

Back to the thread subject. I noticed an older audiosancto homily had 40 "likes" so I listened. Father's homily reminds you...

Holy Sanctuary in the Divine Mercy of God (under sermon categories: Christology)
The first part of the homily, Father explains indulgences. Listen about 8:58 to hear about Jesus' beautiful promise.

www.audiosancto.org...

I would become Roman Catholic for this promise of Our Lord. Wow~! Jesus' gift given on one day of the year, the Sunday after Easter on the feast of Divine Mercy. Jesus promises if you will receive Holy Communion and go to Confession on or within a few days before or after the Feast Day, all your sins are forgiven AND your Purgatory time, the reparation to be made for the effects of your sins are removed. Your soul is now in the state it was at the moment of Baptism.

* If you have a MORTAL sin on your soul, you must go to Confession BEFORE you receive Communion on the Feast of Divine Mercy.

reply to post by colbe

* If you have a MORTAL sin on your soul, you must go to Confession BEFORE you receive Communion on the Feast of Divine Mercy.

Or else I will not be forgiven. I get it. Oh well. Because I want a narcissistic egomaniac's favor anyway. He preaches humility, but practices pride. He preaches peace, but deals in violence. He talks of generosity, but prefers to make bargains. We must grant him our souls and our eternal and utter fealty before he lifts a finger to correct the mistakes that he has made.

And yet, I must be forgiven for my actions. When has he ever apologized? I suppose that vacation he took during the Holocaust was just a misunderstanding. I suppose the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, or the necessity for the nukes to be dropped on their cities, was all just a miscalculation. I suppose every single mass murder and every single tragedy is completely exonerable in the eyes of the almighty as long as he's the one responsible for them. But if someone is to feel love and attraction for another of the same gender, that's a sin worthy of eternal damnation?

Seems legit.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by colbe

 

* If you have a MORTAL sin on your soul, you must go to Confession BEFORE you receive Communion on the Feast of Divine Mercy.

Or else I will not be forgiven. I get it. Oh well. Because I want a narcissistic egomaniac's favor anyway. He preaches humility, but practices pride. He preaches peace, but deals in violence. He talks of generosity, but prefers to make bargains. We must grant him our souls and our eternal and utter fealty before he lifts a finger to correct the mistakes that he has made.

And yet, I must be forgiven for my actions. When has he ever apologized? I suppose that vacation he took during the Holocaust was just a misunderstanding. I suppose the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, or the necessity for the nukes to be dropped on their cities, was all just a miscalculation. I suppose every single mass murder and every single tragedy is completely exonerable in the eyes of the almighty as long as he's the one responsible for them. But if someone is to feel love and attraction for another of the same gender, that's a sin worthy of eternal damnation?

Seems legit.

Thanks for posting AfterInfinity, for an atheist you take a great interest in the faith threads. A good sign.

The underlined are evil men's free will choices, they're not of God, God doesn't have to apologize. Our choices, explain your free will choice to reject Him? See, didn't I say God is perfectly loving, He forgives when we repent and confess our sins to Him.

You can't stand before Him and say I don't care, I will not repent. Everyone atones for the sins of their life by loving acts, prayers offered and our sufferings here. IF you die in the state of grace, having repented and confessed the mortal sins of your life to God before you die, you will go to Heaven. These days, with the loss of faith not many people destined for Heaven go straight up. Purgatory first, to complete reparation.

None of your I am mad at God comments are true. God can't ask for repentance or expect atonement? So, if someone hurts another person, you are fine with no apology or reparation? The court system is not needed?

If a person misunderstands who God is or rejects Him, doesn't mean what God has revealed about Himself is not true. Have faith in what He has revealed and in His plan, you can AI, ask Him for the grace to believe.

God has revealed sodomy is an abomination. The vile act of sodomy goes against the natural law. Anatomically you should be able to realize, it doesn't even require faith. In the past, before the homosexual act was accepted as good by the world, homosexuals kept quiet. Pray for their conversion.