Women in Judaism.

reply to post by FlyersFan


ew

bit of a worry that they get there and they are all deaf, dumb and blind...so they wouldn't even know what the hell they are doing.

reply to post by jiggerj

This takes in the extremely shallow and utterly false concept of man being better because he's stronger. In terms of equality, if men considered women equal then men wouldn't abuse them. I'm not so sure that women were treated badly before religion came along.

Not "better because he's stronger"...
but rather "different" because he is stronger.
Also, when you refer to man as "stronger" you automatically imply that the woman is weak. Of course that is the way of nature, (with exceptions of course) doesn't mean the woman has to be subjugated.


@Christina66

Pray tell how you know that men have always been the hunter-gatherers and that the women were to take of the house and raise the children 'since the dawn of history'?

Well, I dont have a time machine or anything.. but seeing how the warriors and armies of the ancient world were MOSTLY comprised of men... it kind of suggests that the males were always more into rough stuff. There is no reason to assume that things were any different during mankinds hunter gatherer, cave dwelling days. Of course, women warriors existed but as exceptional cases. But it would be delusional to claim that the number of female warriors equally matched that of male warriors.

These physical differences exist and that's the beauty behind the saying "opposites attract".
Or am I wrong on this and do women generally prefer slender built males with effeminate mannerisms....over well built, deep voiced guys?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Dude .. you just killed the premise of your own thread. Look at what you wrote.
The Jewish faith has misogyny in it's religious historic documents. You yourself said that they don't live in accordance with their ancient religious documents. So, although misogyny is indeed in the documents,

I know what I wrote.
My point is... unlike people like you, I am not going to smear an entire culture as misogynistic because of some teachings they have in their holy texts. Its really easy to do, but I will NOT stoop to that level.

You on the other hand brand 1.5 billion muslims as wife beaters and misogynists because you assume that every single muslim lives by every single religious law in Islam. You seem unable to understand that a misogyny is a personality trait and a guy with a muslim name who beats his wife did it because he was an a-hole. Not because the Koran commanded it, as you allege.

. No clinging to ancient misogynistic religious texts in regards to the rights of women.

Don't be so sure.
There are pockets of fundamentalists in Israel who still cling to them.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews spit on 8 year old girl and call her a prostitute for not wearing "modest clothes".


You can imagine how different Israel would be if these people ran the country.

Jews have evolved and don't follow those ancient misogynistic traditions that are in them.

Seems that Jews understand that their misogynistic texts were man-made, from a different time period, and unworthy of civilization in the year 2013.

Most Jews don't follow those ancient traditions.. not because they "evolved" but because they are mostly moving out of religion.Which is why Israel is nearly 30% atheist and secular.

You say 'anti-Islamic websites' because they tell the ugly truth of what is happening in Islam.

Do you normally get information on Jews from neo-nazi websites?... you know, the ones claiming to tell the "ugly truth" about Judaism?
No?
So why then do you get your info on Islam from anti-Islamic websites?

reply to post by FlyersFan

There is a difference between what the Jews do with their ancient texts and what Muslims do with their 1400 year old texts.

Thats what you think...

This is from a Jewish website that admits....

For many years there has been a myth that domestic violence among Jewish families was infrequent.

However, there is much data demonstrating that domestic abuse is a significant and under-recognized behavior in Jewish communities in Israel and the Diaspora. Jewish women typically take a longer time to leave abusive relationships for fear that they will lose their children and because they are aware of the difficulties in obtaining a get, a Jewish divorce document.

Domestic Violence in Jewish Law

I can easily connect this to the misogynistic teachings that I quoted, and say "see, Jews are misogynistic because of the teachings of their religion"....

but I won't. It would just bring me down to your level.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
My point is... unlike people like you, I am not going to smear an entire culture as misogynistic because of some teachings they have in their holy texts. Its really easy to do, but I will NOT stoop to that level.

People like me?? Yes, I 'stooped to the level' of actually educating myself and not continually clinging to a particular religion even though it's obviously bogus or bad for humanity. Yeah ... bad bad me. Dude .. it's not 'smearing' Islam to state the truth .. Islam follows it's 1400 year old misogynistic religious texts. The majority of Islamic nations integrate them into their rule of law. The majority of islamic cultures use Islam as an excuse to mistreat women. That's just the truth of it.

You on the other hand brand 1.5 billion muslims as wife beaters and misogynists because you assume that every single muslim lives by every single religious law in Islam.

Silly exaggeration on your part. BTW .. try going to a Saudi Arabia tell the muslims that they aren't following Islam. See how quickly they call for you to be beheaded.

You seem unable to understand that a misogyny is a personality trait and a guy with a muslim name who beats his wife did it because he was an a-hole. Not because the Koran commanded it, as you allege.

You seem unable to understanad that misogyny is inherint in Islam. And most Muslims cling to their antiquated books and their so-called prophet. (mobs calling for the death of people who 'insult' (tell the truth) about Muhammad or who burn the Qu'ran - that tells you how much Muslims cling to their religion) That's just the truth of the matter. Sure, those who beat their wives are a-holes ... but they use their religion as an excuse because ... drumroll .. their religion not only says they can and should, but so do the laws of the Islamic countries and so do the modern day Imams and so does the basic Islamic culture in many 'Islamic' nations.

You can imagine how different Israel would be if these people ran the country.

Which is why secular rule of law is a good thing. That way the extremists and those who cling to ancient religious texts can't run a country. Secular rule of law ... instead of religious mob rule.

Most Jews don't follow those ancient traditions.. not because they "evolved" but because they are mostly moving out of religion.Which is why Israel is nearly 30% atheist and secular.

Moving out of antiquated misogynistic religious beliefs = evolved.

Do you normally get information on Jews from neo-nazi websites?... you know, the ones claiming to tell the "ugly truth" about Judaism? No? So why then do you get your info on Islam from anti-Islamic websites?

The websites I go to that tell the ugly truth about misogynistic Islamic practices and beliefs can not be equated with neo-nazi anti-Jewish sites. Not even close. Any information that shows Islams negative side would be considered 'anti-Islamic' to you ... because you are so deeply into your religion. Facts are facts ... and sometimes the truth is ugly.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I can easily connect this to the misogynistic teachings that I quoted, and say "see, Jews are misogynistic because of the teachings of their religion"....

Actually you can't. Because you already admitted that, for the most part, Jews don't follow their own religion or their ancient books and they have secular rule of law, not pushing the Jewish faith on anyone. (which is true .. they don't). Whereas many Muslims will threaten to cut off your head if you tell the truth about Islam or about Muhammad, and 'Islamic' nations will toss you in jail if you don't follow Islamic rule of law. BIG DIFFERENCE.

It would just bring me down to your level.

More insults. Try coming UP to my level ....
Educate yourself. Don't be afraid of the truth no matter where it takes you.

Just gotta' bring this up .... For those who cling to antiquated books ...
For the Christians, Muslims and Jews ... the Abrahamic faiths ...
Check out how wonderful Moses was ...

Numbers 31:17&18 - Moses commanded - 17 You must put to death every boy and all the women who have ever had sex. 18 But do not kill the young women who have never had sex. You may keep them for yourselves.”

Next time your Rabbi or Priest or Imam brings up Moses or the books of old ... don't forget this. Moses, who told the Jews that God supposedly said - 'do not kill' and 'do not commit adultry' - also told the Jewish men that it was okay for them to kill and that they could keep young virgin girls for their sexual pleasure slaves.

Looks like God can't make up his mind.
Either that, or God didn't really tell Moses these things.
Like I said. Antiquated religious texts shouldn't be used to run any country.
One person says ' 'God says... "
Others see what 'God says ..' as pretty bad stuff.
What is 'from God' to one person .. is just a bunch of man made crap to another.
Secular rule of law is the only way to go.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Over time the so-called holy texts have conditioned men to think of women as lesser beings in need of constant control. How many times do we have to hear how one Islamic opinion is not a reflection on the whole religion? Here are some links that I'm posting only for you to read the title. You don't need to go there to get the gist of what Islamic men have been brainwashed into thinking of women.

www.infowars.com...islamic-cleric-issues-fatwa-permitting-rape-of-syrian-women/

www.barenakedislam.com...muslim-cleric-doctors-say-as-long-as-a-girl-has-reached-puberty-even-at-9-years-old-she-is-wife-materia l/

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...Islamic-cleric-bans-women-from-touching-bananas/articleshow/11020659.cms

www.examiner.com...egypt-islamic-cleric-justifies-rape-for-female-protesters

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...egypt-muslim-cleric-mohammed-abdullah-said-women-who-go-to-protests-were-going-there-to-get -raped-.html

______beforeitsnews/opinion-conservative/2013/02/burkas-for-babies-muslim-clerics-new-fatwa-calls-for-all-female-babies-to-be-fully-covered-by -wearing-the-face-veil-2571708.html

weaselzippers.us...top-muslim-clerics-back-female-circumcision-call-it-a-human-right/

I had a very similar thread regarding women throughout history and religion which had little interest here
Why Does God & Man fear us so much?

It strikes me that for as long as there are men (generalisation) in power in religion, women will never ever get a better deal. In my thread I was attempting to get to the bottom of why women were so reviled in religions and how this spilled over into other areas of life such as careers etc. but alas it seemed to turn into an male vs female situation which it wasn't meant to be.

The truth appears to be that men are very weak when it comes to women and are easily swayed and as a result, the men must keep the women under strict control and if they do slip up, well its all the nasty evil woman's fault for being.....well...female!

reply to post by phyllida


I have always saw religion as being dominated by the leaders. Like you could tell a majority of religions like the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) are very influenced by the views of men and ancient tradition. However, women also fall in the same pits as you could different Wicca movements are influenced by women spiritual leaders. All religion is cancer to humanity though.

reply to post by Phoenix267


But Wicca does not subjugate men, declare them dirty and foul, treat men worse than animals etc etc

I've never really looked upon Wicca as a religion more a belief system. There is no reglious texts and doctrines to follow, no manuscript of rules & regulations and no punishment for "wrong doers"

reply to post by phyllida

There is no reglious texts and doctrines to follow, no manuscript of rules & regulations and no punishment for "wrong doers"

I was using Wicca as an example because of more feminine the religion is and a episode of Wife Swap I saw involving a Wiccan family. I would like to imply Wicca does fit the definition of religion. Also you're using the No True Scotsman logical fallacy for Wicca. There are all kind of Wiccans throughout the world since their religious beliefs are diverse. I doubt there is away to easily defined one religion.

While I understand the point the OP is trying to make - I think we can make it without pointing any fingers
Prevalence of Domestic Violence in the United States

* On average more than three women a day are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in the United States. In 2005, 1,181 women were murdered by an intimate partner.2

* In 2008, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention published data collected in 2005 that finds that women experience two million injuries from intimate partner violence each year.3

* Nearly one in four women in the United States reports experiencing violence by a current or former spouse or boyfriend at some point in her life.4

* Women are much more likely than men to be victimized by a current or former intimate partner.5 Women are 84 percent of spouse abuse victims and 86 percent of victims of abuse at the hands of a boyfriend or girlfriend and about three-fourths of the persons who commit family violence are male.6

* There were 248,300 rapes/sexual assaults in the United States in 2007, more than 500 per day, up from 190,600 in 2005. Women were more likely than men to be victims; the rate for rape/sexual assault for persons age 12 or older in 2007 was 1.8 per 1,000 for females and 0.1 per 1,000 for males.7

* The United States Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 3.4 million persons said they were victims of stalking during a 12-month period in 2005 and 2006. Women experience 20 stalking victimizations per 1,000 females age 18 and older, while men experience approximately seven stalking victimizations per 1,000 males age 18 and older.8

But If we need to point a few more fingers to show how the pointing of fingers is unnecessary:
Priest Blames Domestic Violence on Lack of Domesticity, Housework by Women

James Mackenzie of Reuters explained the extent of the problem of violence against women in Italy, noting a UN report which found that a third of Italian women had been reported being domestic violence victims, and 127 women were murdered by men in 2010 for "honor, men's unemployment and jealousy by the perpetrator."

Why do pastors struggle with confronting domestic violence?

Author and blogger John Shore recently addressed the above question after hearing from a multitude of women who were told by their pastors to, “in one way or another, stick with their abusive husbands.”

Explaining that he personally had never known any pastor that would give such advice, Shore attempted to highlight six reasons why he and his wife thought “good, loving, well-intentioned men” might have done “such a terrible thing.
Read more at www.christianpost.com...

When I Call for Help: A Pastoral Response to Domestic Violence Against Women

We focus here on violence against women, since 85 percent of the victims of reported cases of non-lethal domestic violence are women.4 Women's greatest risk of violence comes from intimate partners—a current or former husband or boyfriend.5

Violence against women in the home has serious repercussions for children. Over 50 percent of men who abuse their wives also beat their children.6 Children who grow up in violent homes are more likely to develop alcohol and drug addictions and to become abusers themselves.7 The stage is set for a cycle of violence that may continue from generation to generation.

The Church can help break this cycle. Many abused women seek help first from the Church because they see it as a safe place. Even if their abusers isolate them from other social contacts, they may still allow them to go to church. Recognizing the critical role that the Church can play, we address this statement to several audiences:

What's the common denominator? We can't blame men because it most definitely is not all men. That's too easy, just as it's too easy to blame it on religion or culture. People always want easy answers because they would love to be able to say it's this person or that person and of course it's their stupid religion. This problem is world wide and it's been this way throughout history - but it can change:

Modern attention to domestic violence began in the women's movement of the 1970s, particularly within feminism and women's rights, as concern about wives being beaten by their husbands gained attention. The first known use of the expression "domestic violence" in a modern context, meaning "spouse abuse, violence in the home" was in 1973.[54][55] With the rise of the men's movement of the 1990s, the problem of domestic violence against men has also gained significant attention.

en.wikipedia.org...
So - anyone thinking we here in the west have it all over other places in the world when it comes to this sort of thing - we do in some ways. But - hasn't been all that long - and the problem is still with us - big time. Women suffering in other parts of the world will not benefit from attacks against their culture from the outside - change will come in other ways. Attacking all the men of cultures different from our own makes no more sense than attacking all the men in our own part of the world. Life is just not that simple

Originally posted by phyllida
I had a very similar thread regarding women throughout history and religion which had little interest here
Why Does God & Man fear us so much?

It strikes me that for as long as there are men (generalisation) in power in religion, women will never ever get a better deal. In my thread I was attempting to get to the bottom of why women were so reviled in religions and how this spilled over into other areas of life such as careers etc. but alas it seemed to turn into an male vs female situation which it wasn't meant to be.

The truth appears to be that men are very weak when it comes to women and are easily swayed and as a result, the men must keep the women under strict control and if they do slip up, well its all the nasty evil woman's fault for being.....well...female!

Actually, I think the way men treat females was imprinted on us even before we evolved into humans. If you look at so many other animals in the wild, the females are pretty much owned by the alpha male. Deer, chimps, gorillas, baboons, to name a few.

This is one of the reasons why I'm so happy to be a Muslim. I thank God everyday. In Islam anything about women is only to help her by means of protection or her help her husband by saving herself. Indeed we show the most respect to women out of all religions known to man. In this fashion life can persist in harmony. If you deny then show your proof in the Qu 'ran

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Jews, Muslims, Christians... THey're all sick bastards..!!

All religions should be outlawed and those refusing to give up their faith, should be rounded up and made to live on some remote island somewhere, away from everyone else and never allowed to leave or contact the outside world.

Or Shot, which ever is easier..lol

reply to post by Ironclad

All religions should be outlawed and those refusing to give up their faith, should be rounded up and made to live on some remote island somewhere, away from everyone else and never allowed to leave or contact the outside world.

Or Shot, which ever is easier..lol

Now, if only some of the big names dropped that one in a book or on national TV.
One of them did, if I remember correctly.

That's why religion has never been a part of my life since adulthood. I feel like we can all have a belief in our minds/heart if we want..a belief in a Creator or a higher power of some sort, one that is for the good of things. It is when religion comes in to it all that things seem to get muddled... black and white becomes a thin, gray line...a blurry differentiation of what the "rules" of life and living should be. I'd rather not rely on a collection of books and bibles with various rules. The rules are so varied in each. I'd rather not rely on the words and judgment of some pedophile priest or some organ trafficking rabbi or some muslim "72 virgin lovin after death guy" to advise me on life and love and marriage. Without religion the above folks may have went a different better way, who knows. There are good people in the world of any race or color or tribe or whatever, but not always in relgions.

Love and marriage and caring are of the heart and from the heart, as well it should be. Mutual respect, mutual needs, mutual interests, offspring, and just sharing the activities of daily living is what matters most. If one lives and loves from the heart, abuse should not become an issue...but if it ever does, one must have the self respect and strength and mindfulness to deal with it in a sane and sensible manner. Religion should not become the "be all, end all" for any ones life. Having a loving, decent spirit in ones heart, even one that involves believing in God or a Creator or whatever, is fine...but one can have all that and do that without getting bogged down in religion. Religion of any denomination often "muddies the waters", so to speak. Where would this world be without women, the bearers of what mans seed becomes. We need the gals...we need the guys...the rest takes care of itself.

50 years of marriage has taught me plenty. He can always grab a lamp and I can always grab a rolling pin to slam with...and yet, we never do...Love is the answer...the question is why should religion have to do with any of that. Abuse is always wrong on all levels. I hope no one ever has to endure it. It happens but.... Love to all here tonite. I know my mean words about religion don't seem to fit what I've said...trying to make a point is rough sometimes...when ya have to take the blinders off.

The original post is taking these quotes out of context. Here is an example:

Thanking God for not being made a woman -Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who hast not made me a heathen; who hast not made me a slave; who hast not made me a woman!

This is a prayer taken from the Jewish Siddur - the prayer book. Specifically, this prayer is said in the Shacharit, or Morning Prayer service.

The prayer is actually slightly different than the one shown above. But, the point of the prayer is not to demean women, but rather to state that every individual has their place and role under G-d's plan. Jewish men, for example, have strict obligations to pray 3 times per day, among other religious duties. The prayer is essentially singing praise to G-d for giving the Jewish man the opportunity to serve his Creator. The prayer was never intended to demean women.

There is a lot of anti-semitism in quotes taken out of context. You really have to understand Hebrew - an intricate and complex language - to be able to debate these topics. I have studied Orthodox Judaism intensely for the last 4 years, and I have not read a single statement in any of their religious writings that promotes racism, sexism, etc. towards others.

Believing that different people have different roles in society is not racism or sexism. It's simple acceptance of where people are in their lives, and thanking G-d for the gifts He has given us at our particular place in history and our current role in society.

So, please don't take these quotes literally. They are inaccurate, highly misleading, and taken completely out of context. Let's use some reason, intelligence, and straightforward facts when discussing these subjects.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Not saying that I doubt these claims but I would like some more information on the sources.

Its my personal belief that the Koran is just a plagiarized version of the Bible with some add-ons so none of this surprises me.