Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about Women

Originally posted by logical7
what i don't get is why are 11-14 years old pre teen and teen girls getting pregnant in 'Christian' 'secular' countries.

Really? You don't see how putting part 'A' into slot 'B' gets you 'C' (a baby?). The difference is that in a secular country, when a teen girl gets pregnant, she isn't flogged or put to death for breaking religious rules or for dishonoring the family.

How can they be old enough to have sex and developed enough to concieve and give birth yet not old enough to marry?

Their bodies can be pregnant or get someone pregnant, but that doesn't mean they have the mental ability or the physical ability or the financial ability to carry on with a marriage.

Comeon now ... common sense.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by logical7

 

Then source this "historical" knowledge.

If you're going to be arbitrary I can too can't I??

the source is the apocryphal text as FF already posted.
My point is not to claim that Joseph was 90, other sources say 72, some other christian sites think 50-55, still others claim he was 17-19.
My point is what you choose is dependent on what you believe, it doesn't matter either way.

So why you choose to take one report about Aeysha as 'factual' and deny others from the same souce that make more sense?
Your refusal is either intentional or you really don't just see it.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by logical7
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

what is your source that you take as fact and then go on to make the accusation?

From the same source you get 'facts' concerning Mohammed, the Hadiths...

The fact that countries like Saudi Arabia use the Hadiths to justify men marrying underage girls in 2013 is only a reflection of a patriarchal and oppressive society.

Also in the early islamic period people counted their age by the time they were in islam so Ayesha could be saying her Islamic age not physical age.

Maybe, but this is rejected by Islamic scholars and would be incredibly impractical (old man converts to Islam, is now 1 yr old??). A pretty desperate attempt to dismiss this behavior.

I know it must be horrible to think that your most awesome of sacred prophets acted in a way we now know to be morally bankrupt, disgusting and debased, but you should never be afraid of the truth...

The truth does not have to lie! Here's a hadith from your link.

Muhammad Wanted to Sexually
Fondle her

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: I was
accompanying the Prophet on a
journey and was riding a slow camel
that was lagging behind the others.
The Prophet passed by me and asked,
"Who is this?" I replied, "Jabir bin 'Abdullah." He asked, "What is the
matter, (why are you late)?" I replied,
"I am riding a slow camel." He asked,
"Do you have a stick?" I replied in the
affirmative. He said, "Give it to me."
When I gave it to him, he beat the camel and rebuked it. Then that camel
surpassed the others thenceforth. The
Prophet said, "Sell it to me." I replied,
"It is (a gift) for you, O Allah's Apostle."
He said, "Sell it to me. I have bought it
for four Dinars (gold pieces) and you can keep on riding it till Medina." When
we approached Medina, I started
going (towards my house). The
Prophet said, "Where are you going?"
I Sad, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left
daughters, so I decided to marry a
widow (an experienced woman) (to
look after them)." He said, "Well done."
When we reached Medina, Allah's
Apostle said, "O Bilal, pay him (the price of the camel) and give him extra
money." Bilal gave me four Dinars and
one Qirat extra. (A sub-narrator said):
Jabir added, "The extra Qirat of Allah's
Apostle never parted from me." The
Qirat was always in Jabir bin 'Abdullah's purse. Sahih Bukhari 3:38:504

now where it talks about Ayesha? Prophet Muhammad is sùggesting a young man to have married a virgin rather than a widow.
Wiki islam is not going to tell the truth,
you using it suggests more about you then it telling any truths!

Originally posted by Prezbo369
Yes absolutely, until a time where Muslims and Christians remove the 'so-called superiors' that represent them, after-all, who else could?

Well I blame democracy for all the slaughters that have occured over the last century and I hold you accountable because you have done nothing to prevent the deaths of Millions of innocent people in the name of Democracy. Btw, Politicians are not religious even if they like to throw the word God around every now and then.

One of the main reasons for Marriage is to consummate is it not?...And I agree the Vatican/Catholic Church is also messed up, but what's your point?

Yes as I showed you (see above)

As it was mentioned earlier, this was a practice by many civilisations and I'm sure the eary era Europeans were sleeping with children also.. So this wasn't just a trait of the prophet of Islam. By the sounds of it, it was the norm.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
what i don't get is why are 11-14 years old pre teen and teen girls getting pregnant in 'Christian' 'secular' countries.

Really? You don't see how putting part 'A' into slot 'B' gets you 'C' (a baby?). The difference is that in a secular country, when a teen girl gets pregnant, she isn't flogged or put to death for breaking religious rules or for dishonoring the family.

How can they be old enough to have sex and developed enough to concieve and give birth yet not old enough to marry?

Their bodies can be pregnant or get someone pregnant, but that doesn't mean they have the mental ability or the physical ability or the financial ability to carry on with a marriage.

Comeon now ... common sense.

thats what i said,
here

I am not advocating that they should
be married, i am asking that they
should be protected till they are
mentally mature to take responsibility
of their action. I guess you agree.

i am saying, under your good 'secular law' more teens get pregnant, there is more child abuse and even child trafficking

Women And War
– In August 2001, soldiers with
the United Nations peacekeeping
mission in Eritrea were
purchasing ten-year-old girls for
sex in local hotels.
– Before the arrival of 15,000 UN
troops in Cambodia in 1991,
there were an estimated 1,000
prostitutes in the capital.
Currently, Cambodia’s illegal sex
trade generates $500 million a year. No less than 55,000 women
and children are sex slaves in
Cambodia, 35 percent of which
are younger than 18 years of age.
– Over 5,000 women and children
have been trafficked from the
Philippines, Russia and Eastern
Europe and are forced into
prostitution in bars servicing the
U.S. Military in South Korea

Close to Home in the USA
– 50,000 women and children are
trafficked into the United States
from no less than 49 countries
every year. As many as 750,000
women and children have been
trafficked into the United States over the last decade.
– Women and children as young
as 14 have been trafficked from
Mexico to Florida and forced to
have sex with as many as 130
clients per week in a trailer park.
These women were kept hostage through threats and physical
abuse, and were beaten and
forced to have abortions. One
woman was locked in a closet for
15 days after trying to escape.

www.teamwmi.org/educational-information/human-trafficking-facts-figures/
in Islam punishment for it is death and it should be, even some elite 'muslims' in arabia, uae do it and deserve the same.
Would you agree that any man be it an arab or christian or muslim or a US soldier be put to death if he does this to a child?
US ignores what its military does, is this secular or christian? Its not Islamic, its also not Christian.
I júst don't like you blindly praising 'secularism' because you either are ignorant or ignoring what happens under secular governments.
India is a place easy for child prostitution and western/american 'christians' come here for their fun, i hope you and your governments won't mind if we just send their heads back!

Anyone defending or suporting these quotes would be wise to first understand the concept of abrogation within the Islamic faith. Secondly, one would be wise to understand the peaceful life of Muhammad in Mecca vs. his violent time in Medina, and how this ties into abrogation and the manner in which the Quaran was revealed to him.

reply to post by logical7


You see, if a Christian in the West does something wicked, he and only he is to blame, not the whole of Christianity. In the sense he is made the focus of the issue...

But if someone with a Muslim name does the same thing... all of Islam is blamed. But I'm sure you are aware of this special reasoning that's reserved only for Muslims.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by logical7

 

Then source this "historical" knowledge.

If you're going to be arbitrary I can too can't I??

the source is the apocryphal text as FF already posted.
My point is not to claim that Joseph was 90, other sources say 72, some other christian sites think 50-55, still others claim he was 17-19.
My point is what you choose is dependent on what you believe, it doesn't matter either way.

So why you choose to take one report about Aeysha as 'factual' and deny others from the same souce that make more sense?
Your refusal is either intentional or you really don't just see it.

Those aren't "historical" documents. Historical documents claim to tell history and are verified by outside sources and the archaeological record.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
if a Christian in the West does something wicked, he and only he is to blame, not the whole of Christianity. In the sense he is made the focus of the issue... But if someone with a Muslim name does the same thing... all of Islam is blamed. But I'm sure you are aware of this special reasoning that's reserved only for Muslims.

If a Christian in the West does something wicked, usually he and only he is to blame becaue he isn't saying that 'christianity said I should do this'. When a muslim does something wicked, lots of times he says that Islam wants him to do it, and the Islamic countries back them, and therefore both he and Islam are to blame.

See the difference yet?

Islam and countries with Islamic influence in law - blame the rape victim and flog her.
Secular rule of law ('christian west') - blame the rapist and put the rapist in jail.

Islam and countries with Islamic influence in law - Imams teaching how to beat women.
Secular rule of law ('christian west') - People who beat women are jailed.

When a so-called Christian in the West breaks secular law, he/she is put in jail. Even if he/she claims that their religion said to do something, they are still jailed. Example - Warren Jeffs - the sicko who broke away from the LDS (Mormons) and started his own polygamy/child molesting group and claimed it was his religious right under Mormon law ... the Mormons officially made a statement saying that he was operating outside the church and the secular law put him in jail. This kind of response doesn't happen in Islamic countries.

Originally posted by logical7
i am saying, under your good 'secular law' more teens get pregnant, there is more child abuse and even child trafficking

Um .. no. Under secular law there is teen pregnancy but there isn't 'more' child abuse. The fact is that in Islamic countries, the abuse goes unreported. Women and children have no place to turn because the courts are man-centered. Under religious law women are abused and traffic'd .. and Islam is used as the excuse to let it happen.

in Islam punishment for it is death and it should be,

Death for a pregnant 14 year old girl? Considering how little the Islamic courts see the word of rape victims, bet the fella that gets her pregnant gets off without so much as a day in jail. :shk:

Would you agree that any man be it an arab or christian or muslim or a US soldier be put to death if he does this to a child?

No. I'm against the death penalty. It's uncivilized. It should only be used when a person is so violent or dangerous that the jails can't keep him or her safely.

US ignores what its military does, is this secular or christian?

Oh please. US Military Personnel aren't a band of rapists running around.
Stop listening to propaganda.

júst don't like you blindly praising 'secularism' because you either are ignorant or ignoring what happens under secular governments.

1 - I don't care what you, or anyone else, likes or doesn't like about me.
2 - I'm not 'blindly' praising anything. My decision that secular government rule is better is a well educated decision.
3 - Problems that happen in secular societies are minor compared to problems with religious rule.

India is a place easy for child prostitution and western/american 'christians' come here for their fun,

Again .. :shk: .... you assume that everyone in the West is a Christian. Silly silly you ..
Hey, if you want to go around assuming people are guilty and murdering people without giving them due legal process .... it's on your soul. Your statement displays the typical 'mob mentality' problems associated with religious rule. Yet another reason secular rule is so important. It's much more clear headed and innocent people don't get murdered by bands of religious nutters.

Next thing you know .. the murders won't stop with westerners alleged to be having sex with indian prostitutes .. the mob will come for the deaths of anyone who doesn't believe exactly like them. That is exactly what happens and that is why secular law is so very important.

Mob rule based on religion ... NOT a good way to run a planet.

reply to post by DarknStormy


Catholic priests and child abuse is not the basis of a religion set down in various books. The marriage of the Prophet Mohammed to a 6yr old is and everything that Mohammed did is still used as a basis for Islam today regardless of its veracity or relevance.

Originally posted by Banananananana
Anyone defending or suporting these quotes would be wise to first understand the concept of abrogation within the Islamic faith. Secondly, one would be wise to understand the peaceful life of Muhammad in Mecca vs. his violent time in Medina, and how this ties into abrogation and the manner in which the Quaran was revealed to him.

oh yes wise guy, muslims either do not know it or they are just lying to the non believers right?
try and get educated, its ridiculous to think yourself as an islamic scholar after visiting an anti islamic site.
you must be really gullible if you believe everything you read anywhere including this, go do your own research but ofcourse only if you really want the truth!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by logical7

 

Then source this "historical" knowledge.

If you're going to be arbitrary I can too can't I??

the source is the apocryphal text as FF already posted.
My point is not to claim that Joseph was 90, other sources say 72, some other christian sites think 50-55, still others claim he was 17-19.
My point is what you choose is dependent on what you believe, it doesn't matter either way.

So why you choose to take one report about Aeysha as 'factual' and deny others from the same souce that make more sense?
Your refusal is either intentional or you really don't just see it.

Those aren't "historical" documents. Historical documents claim to tell history and are verified by outside sources and the archaeological record.

you are missing the point are'nt you?
you tell me what age you think Joseph was and why?
do you apply reasoning before accepting Ayesha's age as 6 or cling to it only because it serves your purpose. it does not affect muslims except hurting them when lies are spread about our Prophet. when i use youtube and search any video about islam, i get a featured link of Ayesha being 6 at marriage. now who has the money to do that? and why is it so important to do it? its just a sick tactic to mislead people from the real teachings of Islam and whats interesting is after the lies they are fed when people come to know the real Islam, they fall right in the muslim camp and find the lies disgusting. thanks to the haters

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
i am saying, under your good 'secular law' more teens get pregnant, there is more child abuse and even child trafficking

Um .. no. Under secular law there is teen pregnancy but there isn't 'more' child abuse. The fact is that in Islamic countries, the abuse goes unreported. Women and children have no place to turn because the courts are man-centered. Under religious law women are abused and traffic'd .. and Islam is used as the excuse to let it happen.

in Islam punishment for it is death and it should be,

Death for a pregnant 14 year old girl? Considering how little the Islamic courts see the word of rape victims, bet the fella that gets her pregnant gets off without so much as a day in jail. :shk:

Would you agree that any man be it an arab or christian or muslim or a US soldier be put to death if he does this to a child?

No. I'm against the death penalty. It's uncivilized. It should only be used when a person is so violent or dangerous that the jails can't keep him or her safely.

US ignores what its military does, is this secular or christian?

Oh please. US Military Personnel aren't a band of rapists running around.
Stop listening to propaganda.

júst don't like you blindly praising 'secularism' because you either are ignorant or ignoring what happens under secular governments.

1 - I don't care what you, or anyone else, likes or doesn't like about me.
2 - I'm not 'blindly' praising anything. My decision that secular government rule is better is a well educated decision.
3 - Problems that happen in secular societies are minor compared to problems with religious rule.

India is a place easy for child prostitution and western/american 'christians' come here for their fun,

Again .. :shk: .... you assume that everyone in the West is a Christian. Silly silly you ..
Hey, if you want to go around assuming people are guilty and murdering people without giving them due legal process .... it's on your soul. Your statement displays the typical 'mob mentality' problems associated with religious rule. Yet another reason secular rule is so important. It's much more clear headed and innocent people don't get murdered by bands of religious nutters.

Next thing you know .. the murders won't stop with westerners alleged to be having sex with indian prostitutes .. the mob will come for the deaths of anyone who doesn't believe exactly like them. That is exactly what happens and that is why secular law is so very important.

Mob rule based on religion ... NOT a good way to run a planet.

i am not demanding mob justice, i demand sharia and death penalty for child molesters. you have blinders on you FF. american soldiers can do no wrong?ya sure, i guess then taliban are angels too
death penalty is cruel and thats why it works, its such a strong deterent that once its made a law, there is little need to actually use it. nothing scares criminals like death!!
and i care more about the kids than about molesters as you do. its not about punishing them, its all about preventing the sick crime!!
Patriotism is a nice thing, but blind worship of a 'system'/'a way of life' just because its yours is a fertile ground for narrow mindedness and hatred for 'others.' the worst part you would'nt even be aware of it until you reflect on it.

Originally posted by logical7
you tell me what age you think Joseph was and why?

No one knows. The only historical documents of that time discussing Joseph (the gospels) do not say what age he was. Only that he died before Jesus was crucified when Jesus was about 30 or so. It could have been old age .. it could have been a disease or virus .. it could have been anything. No one knows because there is no historical documentation.

do you apply reasoning before accepting Ayesha's age as 6 or cling to it only because it serves your purpose.

Islamic Documents of that time period state her age was nine.

Originally posted by logical7
i am not demanding mob justice, i demand sharia and death penalty for child molesters.

Sharia is 'mob justice' based on the fanatical religious beliefs of some, which are being imposed on others who don't believe the same.

you have blinders on you FF.

Um .. no. I'm the one who isn't blindly clinging to things which are bad for society.

american soldiers can do no wrong?

I didn't say that they 'can do no wrong'. I said that they aren't all running around raping and stealing. Once in a while a bad apple will show up. But that person is punished as the secular law requires.

death penalty is cruel and thats why it works,

The death penalty would be applied where it doesn't belong. Your Sharia law is barbaric.

and i care more about the kids than about molesters as you do.

GROW UP and stop being absurd. Having molesters locked up instead of being put to death doesn't mean I care about molesters more than children. It means that I don't believe in a death penalty except for extreme cases. God made life. We shouldn't be quick to take it away. Your insult is absurd and disgusting.

Patriotism is a nice thing, but blind worship of a 'system'/'a way of life' just because its yours is a fertile ground for narrow mindedness and hatred for 'others.'

Religion is a nice thing, but blind worship of a 'system'/a way of life' (ISLAM) just because it's yours is a fertile ground for narrow mindedness and hatred for 'others' ... right back atchya. Oh .. and I'm not saying anything here out of 'patriotism'. I have never once said anything like USA! USA! I simply stated the truth .. secular rule of law FOR ANY COUNTRY without any religious influence is the only rule of law that is smart. Otherwise, religious nutters start pushing THEIR version of truth onto everyone else. Be it Muslims or Catholics or whatever. Religion should stay out of the laws of a country. Otherwise, people are disenfranchised and have absurd things forced on them ... absurd like 'morals police' in Iran .. absurd like 'women can't drive' in Saudi Arabia .. absurd.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
you tell me what age you think Joseph was and why?

No one knows. The only historical documents of that time discussing Joseph (the gospels) do not say what age he was. Only that he died before Jesus was crucified when Jesus was about 30 or so. It could have been old age .. it could have been a disease or virus .. it could have been anything. No one knows because there is no historical documentation.

do you apply reasoning before accepting Ayesha's age as 6 or cling to it only because it serves your purpose.

Islamic Documents of that time period state her age was nine.

well answering islam and sam shamuon are not really the best sources to rely on, are they? it would be like going to the jews to find who Jesus pbuh was!!
absoluteverdict.blogspot.in...

First, we must consider that there is ONLY ONE HADITH reported by Hisham bin Urwah that states Hazrat Aisha's age to be 9 when she moved in. (Note: Although this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that this information has come from a single person, i.e. Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator in this Hadith's chain of narrators, on the authority of his father. Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators. In this case, there is basically only one source.) Hashim bin Urwah lived for 71 years. In the first part of his life, he lived in Madina. Following 131 AH, he moved to Iraq. Hashim had a huge number of students at Madina, and NONE of them - not even the most famous ones like Malik ibn Anas - reported to have learnt any such hadith from him. Practically, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis. However: It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah's memory suffered in his later years in Iraq - to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity. (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301). Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable EXCEPT those that are reported through the people of Iraq". Even Malik ibn Anas, the most popular student of Hisham, discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq. (Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (PbuH), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

According to Ibn Hajar, Hazrat Fatima was five years older than Hazrat Aisha. Hazrat Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad (PBUH) was thirty-five years old, meaning Hazrat Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) married at fifty-two.

Tabari (an authentic and early history of Islam) reports that Hazrat Abu Bakr wished to spare Hazrat Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Hazrat Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

According to almost all the historians, Hazrat Asma (the elder sister of Hazrat Aisha), was ten years older than Hazrat Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Hazrat Asma died in the 73rd year after migration when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Hazrat Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Hazrat Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Hazrat Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Hazrat Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Hazrat Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Hazrat Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.

reply to post by logical7


No matter how you present that, they wont believe it, they rather believe hisham bin urwah even they dont know who he is and know if he is the chain narator of bukhari, thinking it is a canonical hadith same level with Qur'an.
I gave the link about this ages ago but no one willing to learn. So i guess as long as it suit the motive, they will keep using sanad from hisham no matter what.

GROW UP and stop being absurd. Having molesters locked up instead of being put to death doesn't mean I care about molesters more than children. It means that I don't believe in a death penalty except for extreme cases. God made life. We shouldn't be quick to take it away. Your insult is absurd and disgusting.

reply to post by FlyersFan


locking them up for few years would not discourage them enough. My intention is not to insult you FF. valuing life is good but over valuing it is very bad for the victims, its just common sense, i prefer to see say 5 executions a year and 50,000 children prevented from being molested than 1000 molesters imprisoned and yet 10,000 children still being molested. tell me FF is one life not worth to prevent 10,000 children from going through that unimaginable horror!! after ofcourse a just trial.

Religion is a nice thing, but blind worship of a 'system'/a way of life' (ISLAM) just because it's yours is a fertile ground for narrow mindedness and hatred for 'others' ... right back atchya.

yes indeed!! calling Jesus with respect and adding 'peace be upon him' is narrow minded and saying islam is from the devil is broad minded!

secular rule of law FOR ANY COUNTRY without any religious influence is the only rule of law that is smart.

secular law has many glaring flaws, its human made. everyone has 1 vote, if there are 3 idiots like me and 1 wise woman like you, you'l be following laws made by the majority! maybe you will accept that
majority voters are stupid and get swayed by emotions and half the eligible population does not even care to vote!!!
lobbies 1st back a candidate then use him/her to pass laws that are in their favour. the people of the country have to just suck it up.
in secularism the powerful and rich will always get his way, why are george bush and company not under investigation for war crimes? they have more chances of dying a natural death that being even put on trial. whats the justification of using depleted uranium in iraq? which is now causing much more cancers and birth defects. if USA is secular then it makes you responsible as you elected the government. secularism is an illusion FF and you have bought it.

absurd like 'women can't drive' in Saudi Arabia .. absurd.

saudis sleep in the same bed with POTUS maybe one night the President should request them to change it.