Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about Women

Originally posted by DarknStormy
Well it's very easy of criticise Mohammed without any factual evidence to back your claim but one thing you forget to mention is 50-60 year old Catholic priests molesting 7-14 year old boys in the Modern World... But we both know that is undeniable.

He 'married' a 9 year old. That's pretty factual.

It's possible to expose the misogynistic facts about Muhammad and his religion, and at the same time expose the pedophile coverup in the Catholic church. I think we can do both at the same time pretty well ....

reply to post by Prezbo369


what is your source that you take as fact and then go on to make the accusation?
My reply is from the same source,

your source is from a man who said it when he was an old man.

Also in the early islamic period people counted their age by the time they were in islam so Ayesha could be saying her Islamic age not physical age.
Also there are reports that Abu Bakr(father of Ayesha) had all his children before the coming of Islam and prophet preached 13yrs before moving to Madina where he consumated the marriage 2 yrs after moving. Do the math.
Also Ayesha had a 10 years older sister who was 27-28 at the Hijrah(moving to Medina)

Now if there are reports which are equally authentic and they conflict a single report(unexamined as strictly as others owing to it just being historical and not a religious detail), a reasonable person will have no problem to decide what is more likely.

Btw do answer me as to how you take your accusation as a fact, did you investigate and question it as skeptically as you do my reply.

Hope you'l not evade my question, intellectual integrity is something we both can respect.

Originally posted by Prezbo369
Why would you think I had forgotten about the Catholics? if anything the fact that other religious folk have been having sex with children just adds more fuel to the fire.

So you blame common Christians and Muslims for the actions of their so-called superiors? Things were different back in the day and does the Koran mention Mohammed having sex with a 6 - 9 year old? I think marrying is a bit harsh to call him a pedophile. Even laws in the Vatican today say that having sex with 12 year olds is legal. Maybe thats why they get away with most of them.

And just like Catholics you attempt to sweep this issue under the rug and pretend as-though it never happened. If you're so good at pretending certain things did happen, pretending other certain things didn't happen must be a walk in the park.

So what am I sweeping under the rug? I can agree that maybe Mohammed married a 9-10 year old but does it mention him having intercourse with that kid? I mean, you have to be having sex with kids to be labelled a pedophile or is this just an accusation which has been added to the story of Mohammed?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well it seems as though everyone was a pedophile if they wanted to be throughout the ages and only up until 200 years ago, marrying a 12 year old was legal in England.

Child marriage

For girls in particular the age of marriage was much closer than now to the onset of fertility. In the 1600s the minimum legal age for marriage in England was 12. Parliament raised the minimum age for marriage (and the age of consent) to 16 in 1885. The above is just 200 years ago. Now compare it to the reality of 1200 years earlier! (with reference to 1885)

The age of consent in one of the American States was just 7 years, just 120 years ago! But the Western people did not know that and just criticized Islam and Muslims for the marriage of the Mohammed and Aisha more than 1400 years ago.

Traditionally, the age at which individuals could come together in a intimate union was something either for the family to decide or a matter of tribal custom. Probably in most cases this coincided with the onset of MENARCHE in girls and the appearance of pubic hair in boys, that is, between 12 and 14, but the boundaries remained fluid.

In the Semitic tradition

Betrothal could take place earlier than PUBERTY, perhaps as early as 7-9 years, but the marriage was not supposed to be consummated until the girl menstruated and was of age. This is analogous to what is obtainable in most part of Africa

In medieval Europe

Gratian, the influential founder of Canon law in the twelfth century, accepted the traditional age of puberty for marriage (between 12 and 14) but he also said consent was "meaningful" if the children were older than seven. Some authorities said consent could take place earlier. It was this policy which was carried over into English common law. Similarly Gratian's ideas about age became part of European civil law.

So this practice wasn't just around at Mohammeds time. The West has also done this and surprisingly, The USA had one state which made it legal to marry 7 year olds.. Seems like we are all pedophiles or possibly related to one

reply to post by DarknStormy

Pretty dang sick .. isn't it? At least a modern and progressive secular rule of law would recognize how awful this is for children and it would move to protect them. Secular rule of law ... taking us out of the dark ages. Yet another for secular rule of law for the planet!

reply to post by FlyersFan


welcome to the thread FF!!
it wouldn't be complete or interesting without your "i know it all" posts.

Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat
women well, for they are [like]
domestic animals with you and do not
possess anything for themselves."
From Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon'

here's a part of the Farewell sermon
"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste."

i did not find your quoted part. Maybe you should check your sources, you come check it on a authentic source before posting here, don't trust the sites you visit blindly.

Also in Islam -
Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the
majority of Hell's occupants. What the Qur'an says about women ... Men are better or worth more than
women -
Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a
degree above them [women]"

the hadith in Bukhari continues why they are in hell, why don't you post whole hadiths and Quranic verses?

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 28 Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never
received any good from you."

(2:228) Divorced women shall keep themselves in waiting for three menstrual courses and it is unlawful for them, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day, to hide whatever Allah might have created in their wombs. Should their husbands desire reconciliation during this time they are entitled to take them back into wedlock. Women have the same rights against their men as men have against them; but men have a degree above them. Allah is All- Powerful, All-Wise.

do you see how the sites you visit are full of deceit.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by DarknStormy

 

Pretty dang sick .. isn't it? At least a modern and progressive secular rule of law would recognize how awful this is for children and it would move to protect them. Secular rule of law ... taking us out of the dark ages. Yet another

for secular rule of law for the planet!

Yeah secular law is good for now but lets see how long it is before the leaders are giving us commie traditions

Originally posted by logical7
it wouldn't be complete or interesting without your "i know it all" posts.

Someone has to expose what all this pro-Islam propganda is ... others expose the absurdity found in organized religions, so I might as well too. Dont' feel bad. I do the same to the Jewish faith and the Christian faith when I see something absurd with them as well.

do you see how the sites you visit are full of deceit.

.. I see you twisting quotes and making excuses for Islamic misogyny.

reply to post by FlyersFan

...... Islamic misogyny.

If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.-Deuteronomy 25:11-12

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Good for you! Expose the misogyny of the Old Testament as well.
THIS thread is about Islam and women.
Start a thread about the Old Testament and how it treated women.
As long as we don't get hacked again .. I'd be more than happy to contribute.

(P.S. Lemme' do Moses! oh please oh please! )

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
it wouldn't be complete or interesting without your "i know it all" posts.

Someone has to expose what all this pro-Islam propganda is ... others expose the absurdity found in organized religions, so I might as well too. Dont' feel bad. I do the same to the Jewish faith and the Christian faith when I see something absurd with them as well.

do you see how the sites you visit are full of deceit.

.. I see you twisting quotes and making excuses for Islamic misogyny.

really?
its me twisting the quotes? Why don't you search "last sermon" and "quran 2:228" yourself in any search engine and read up for yourself.
George sail is a staunch critic of islam and he translated Qur'an too.
www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7440/pg7440.html
this is what he said in it.
His view on Muhammad pbuh

He has given a
new system of religion, which has
had still greater success than the arms of his followers, and to establish this
religion made use of an imposture;
and on this account it is supposed
that he must of necessity have been a
most abandoned villain, and his
memory is become infamous. But as Mohammed gave his Arabs the best
religion he could, as well as the best
laws, preferable. at least, to those of
the ancient pagan lawgivers, I
confess I cannot see why he deserves
not equal respect—though not with Moses or Jesus Christ, whose laws
came really from Heaven, yet, with
Minos or Numa, notwithstanding the distinction of a learned writer, who seems to think it a greater crime to make use of an imposture to set up a new religion, founded on the acknowledgment of one true God

now his translation of Surah 2:228

The women who are
divorced shall wait
concerning
themselves until they
have their courses
thrice, and it shall not be lawful for them to
conceal that which
God hath created in
their wombs, if they
believe in God and
the last day; and their husbands will act
more justly to bring
them back at this
time, if they desire a
reconciliation. The
women ought also to behave towards their
husbands in like
manner as their
husbands should
behave towards
them, according to what is just: But the
men ought to have a
superiority over
them. God is mighty
and wise.

FF try and observe by being unbiased and do some authentic research.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by DarknStormy

 

Pretty dang sick .. isn't it? At least a modern and progressive secular rule of law would recognize how awful this is for children and it would move to protect them. Secular rule of law ... taking us out of the dark ages. Yet another

for secular rule of law for the planet!

what i don't get is why are 11-14 years old pre teen and teen girls getting pregnant in 'Christian' 'secular' countries. How can they be old enough to have sex and developed enough to concieve and give birth yet not old enough to marry?
I am not advocating that they should be married, i am asking that they should be protected till they are mentally mature to take responsibility of their action. I guess you agree. Is it a failure of christianity or secular law or both that this is not happening?

In previous times both boys and girls got matured much early, there was no formal schooling or colleges etc, average life expectancy was below 50 maybe less than even 40. So it was wise to marry early.

You can't judge history by present standards and nobody should use history to make today's standard too. I hope we both agree on this,

because if not, then you'l probably end up calling your own great grandfather as a pedophile and a statutory rapist!

I don't agree with any rulings making it ok to marry 9 years old girls. Thats sick!!

Its simple, for all times, a girl is old enough to marry when she is physically developed and mentally mature to give consent after understanding the implications/responsibilities of what she is getting into.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by Prezbo369
I don't see anything about 50 year old men sleeping with 9 year old girls.

Regardless of what was acceptable at the time, marrying a 6 year old girl then 'consummating' the marriage 3 years later tells us all we need to know about Mohammed's attitude towards women, and children...

Well it's very easy of criticise Mohammed without any factual evidence to back your claim but one thing you forget to mention is 50-60 year old Catholic priests molesting 7-14 year old boys in the Modern World... But we both know that is undeniable.

Non sequitur. No one here is arguing that was good or noble. Secondly, two wrongs make right is a fallacy.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by logical7

 

Why did you cherry-pick?

What about his stance on having sex with a little girl?

hey NuT!, thanks for joining.

Let me remind you that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

Refer to my reply to Prezbo and let me remind you that Mary was 12-14 years old at the time of her marriage to Joseph and he was 90!!
God chose a teenager to get pregnant and give birth to Jesus pbuh.
I am fine with it, God knows better as to who is 'adult' not a secular arbitary law making it at 18 years. Hope you agree with me.

What verse in the scripture tells you Mary or Joseph's age? Secondly, teenagers marrying was the norm in a culture and period of human history when the lifespan average was 35 years old. And finally, a "teenager" isn't the same as a six year old "child".

reply to post by logical7


Thought I'd post this excellent video about Mohammad and Aisha.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

What verse in the scripture tells you Mary or Joseph's age? Secondly, teenagers marrying was the norm in a culture and period of human history when the lifespan average was 35 years old. And finally, a "teenager" isn't the same as a six year old "child".

what verse? Its historical knowledge.
I thought you don't like cherry picking.
No verse in Qur'an about Ayesha's age too, if you want to maintain a similar standard.
I already answered to prezbo and asked you to read it, the other hadiths point that Ayesha was at least a teen, other sources point at maybe an older age, till even late teen.

Why you choose to stick to one report and ignore many others that don't suit your rhetoric?
You like to quote ibn ishaq (i guess), according to him, she was close to 19.

Does'nt it appear as a smear campaign against Islam? A tactic to not let people know more about Islam.

About 3/4th converts in west are women, they see through it, the academics see through it. Its just a very specific group that promotes it to the yet ignorant masses.

Lets find about Muhammad pbuh through unbiased historians and not through anti-islam sources.

Now back to Mary and Joseph.
You find a source of your choice that tells the age of Joseph and then answer me why a teen Mary was married to a 90years old man?!!

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What verse in the scripture tells you Mary or Joseph's age?

what verse? Its historical knowledge.

He wants to know exactly what historical document are you using to determine that Joseph was 90? And saying that it's 'common knowledge' or that it was passed down in Islam .. that's not 'historical knowledge'. That's just passing along fictional stories made up 600+ years after Joseph was alive.

Are you getting that age from the apocryphal writings?
They are stories made up and without any authority.

Catholic Encyclopedia - Who Old Was Joseph When He Married Mary?

It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived 49 years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord’s brother"). A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Judah a respectable man to espouse Mary, then 12 to 14 years of age. Joseph, who was at the time 90 years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place. These dreams, as St. Jerome styles them, from which many a Christian artist has drawn his inspiration (see, for instance, Raphael’s Espousals of the Virgin), are void of authority; they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of "the Lord’s brothers"; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God. (www.newadvent.org)

They are also easily debunked. Scripture states that Joseph was alive and very active when Jesus was 12 years old and was lost in the temple. That would have made him well over 100 years old when Jesus was found in the temple. And Joseph was alive longer than that he married Mary, then he would have been close to 120 when he died. NOT LIKELY during that time period.

reply to post by logical7


Then source this "historical" knowledge.

If you're going to be arbitrary I can too can't I??

Originally posted by logical7
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

what is your source that you take as fact and then go on to make the accusation?

From the same source you get 'facts' concerning Mohammed, the Hadiths...

The fact that countries like Saudi Arabia use the Hadiths to justify men marrying underage girls in 2013 is only a reflection of a patriarchal and oppressive society.

Also in the early islamic period people counted their age by the time they were in islam so Ayesha could be saying her Islamic age not physical age.

Maybe, but this is rejected by Islamic scholars and would be incredibly impractical (old man converts to Islam, is now 1 yr old??). A pretty desperate attempt to dismiss this behavior.

I know it must be horrible to think that your most awesome of sacred prophets acted in a way we now know to be morally bankrupt, disgusting and debased, but you should never be afraid of the truth...

Originally posted by DarknStormy

So you blame common Christians and Muslims for the actions of their so-called superiors?

Yes absolutely, until a time where Muslims and Christians remove the 'so-called superiors' that represent them, after-all, who else could?

Things were different back in the day and does the Koran mention Mohammed having sex with a 6 - 9 year old?

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

No the Koran doesn't mention it, but as you can see the hadith's do...

I think marrying is a bit harsh to call him a pedophile. Even laws in the Vatican today say that having sex with 12 year olds is legal. Maybe thats why they get away with most of them.

One of the main reasons for Marriage is to consummate is it not?...And I agree the Vatican/Catholic Church is also messed up, but what's your point?

So what am I sweeping under the rug? I can agree that maybe Mohammed married a 9-10 year old but does it mention him having intercourse with that kid?

Yes as I showed you (see above).

I mean, you have to be having sex with kids to be labelled a pedophile or is this just an accusation which has been added to the story of Mohammed?

No (see above)