Dutch Filmmaker Theo Van Gogh Murdered

What you are stating is followers becoming extremist's out of their own mind's instead of the bible feeding them this extremistism. But Islam the koran is what feeds the the common arab terrorist, it does not come from their own mind. Like the so called christian terrorist. Which can not really be called a christian terrorist, but only a own terrorist, since the bible doesn't feed his actions.

Well that's that argument won.

Yep, yesterday was a sad day for democracy in our country.

Though I am quite leftist about American politics, I'm quite rightist about the politics here in Holland.
For too long now we've had weak left-wing governments. They had popular, and accepted a few popular laws (gay-marriage, euthanasia, social security etc...) but never paid attention to upcoming problems. Now, the current right-wing government had to take drastic measurements to get the country back on track.

Theo was a master in pissing people off, he wrote with poison, as some say. He never avoided confrontation, instead he sought it. His goal was to piss off as many people as possible.
He was sued for nine years because of one column, which he eventually won.

He called muslim extremists pigs, goatf*ckers and 'pimps of the prophet'. Which he is allowed to do in a free democratic country. Unfortunately, yesterday, an insane muslim extremist confrontated him with bullets instead of words.

Theo just finished the film '0605' about the murder of Fortuyn. He will be missed.




[edit on 11-3-2004 by Zion Mainframe]

Originally posted by Thinker
Well that's that argument won.

Not really.
If you don't look further than your noce long is, you may get stuck in that ignorance o yours.

Christian extremists today in our world very rarely resort to violence, because the bible and especially Jesus teachings make it very clear that any form of violence is not right.

Now don't ask me why, but somehow there are a load more people who resort to violence in the islamic religion.
The weak and questionable arguments regarding our history in which several groups and origanisations tried to abuse christianity for their own agenda, is a completely different thing than the fundamental islamic people killing and bombing in the name of their god.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Yep, there is a division between native dutch people and foreigners. In fact, it was always there. I don't want to generalize, but a lot of Dutch people hate forgeigners. And people like this Theo van Gogh with his film give the foreigners in the country an even more difficult life than they already have. Lots of people have to face racism and discrimination every single day on the job, in the bus, at nightclubs etc... I myself have faced discrimination in Holland.

Not to say that all foreigners in Holland are good. There is also reverse racism. Especially from the side of the Maroccans. But there are good people in between, but they suffer because of the rotten apples. And the Dutch media, which is one of the most racist media I have ever known, will never portray foreigners in a way that does not apply to the (half/half) common consensus that foreigners are inferior to caucasian Dutch people.

My cousin plays for the Dutch national football team. He played in various world cups and European cups with them. He's the only person ever to have won the champions league three times with three different teams. He's popular in countries such as Spain and Italy. Yet the Dutch media very seldom acknowledge him or try to discredit him mainly because he's black and was born Surinamese.

And it's probably because of the movie he made with Hirsi Ali, which again put islamic people in a negative light. (Perhaps it was just, because it was going about forced marriages...perhaps not). But I wouldn't watch that movie anyway because of Hirsi Ali. That woman was a refugee, now she's in the Dutch parliament. And she made some comments about my country recently that are just plain IGNORANT. She doesn't even know that Aruba isn't part of the Netherlands Antilles anymore. Wake up Lady!!! We haven't been in the N.A. since 1986!!! Then she has the nerve to discuss the problems and denigrate Aruba and also the N.A.??? She doesn't even the kingdom she lives in, and she wants to discuss it??? That lady has issues, really.

Any rant off....

Just curious, who is your famous cousin?

Originally posted by TheBandit795
All they need is a next Pim Fortuyn and you have another nazi state...

Indeed we need the next Pim Fortuyn he would clearly do something to the problem of Fundamentalism in Holland. As for my concern he was the best thing that could ever happen to Holland. The only thing that we do in the Netlerlands is only discussing discussing with parties. He would have defenetly trown out all the rotten apples.

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe


Though I am quite leftist about American politics, I'm quite rightist about the politics here in Holland.
For too long now we've had weak left-wing governments. They had popular, and accepted a few popular laws (gay-marriage, euthanasia, social security etc...) but never paid attention to upcoming problems. Now, the current right-wing government had to take drastic measurements to get the country back on track.

I think that might be the problem in lot of EU countries.
Although I am an outspoken liberal/social democrat, I have seen a similar flaw in all left wing parties across Europe: they tend to ignore issues till it's too late. They seem to live in a world they want it to be, and not the world how it really is.

Immigrant issue has become a hot topic recently and it has the same effect everywhere, people are leaning towards right wing parties. To blame is, IMO, the whole establishment and how they deal with immigrants. A lot of countries have allowed "ghettos" to be formed, parts of cities with majority of muslim/russian/african population. Instead of integrating these people into society, they have isolated them. That was a very wrong approach, France, specially Paris, being a good example of it.

I have noticed that here in Austria the goverment didn't allow this. There is no ghetto here. There are parts of city with higher number of immigrants, but those are simply poor, middle-class parts of Vienna, where average austrians live too. The city spends a LOT of money on schools in those parts of the city, german language courses, job coaching, anything that will get these people to try to integrate more. So far, this approach has been quite succesful.
Since 2000 the right wing party has held a slight majority in goverment, but that didn't affect much the situation because these things are regulated on local and not state level and in Vienna the social democrats have always held the majority of votes.

So far, majority of EU citizens have managed to keep calm and open mind about these issues, but it is evident that it won't last long. This is a problem that has to be dealt with both on EU level and on national levels.
The recent elections in several german provinces where neo nazi party has won a significant number of votes, should be a warning and a reason to try to deal with the situation in civilised manner before it is too late.

It is clear that the current way of dealing with the situation is not enough in most EU countries, but also the far right wing way, like Pim Fortuyn and the like, is also not a solution. We need something that is in between those two.

Oh yeah, on a side note, I am one of those immigrants, and I know that a lot of "my kind" want to live in Europe in peace and contribute to this society.

I find the stoic dissent a bit disturbing. My company buys a tremendous amount of Dutch medical equipment each year (Philips N.V. MRI and CT scanners), and we have constant contact with representatives, engineers, sales, some clinical people and there isn't a peep out of them regarding this. We do knock down, drag out dinners (everybody is plowed), and the conversation never goes in the direction this thread has. These are people straight from Best, not local Americans.

I always viewed the Dutch as extremely tolerant (a bit stodgy, but in a good way ), and I never got the slightest hint of a secular/xenophobic/fundamentalist/nationalist riff in any of the individuals I dealt with (the really outspoken ones might mention George Bush, but you still couldn't tell how they feel one way or another).

So what gives?

Originally posted by Jakko
The weak and questionable arguments regarding our history in which several groups and origanisations tried to abuse christianity for their own agenda, is a completely different thing than the fundamental islamic people killing and bombing in the name of their god.

In the crusades they killed in the name of God and Jesus

In the Witch trials it was in the name of God

In the colonization of the American continent, where they wiped out the vast majority of the Native American population and enslaved and killed Africans. They did that in the name of Jesus. It was repent or die.

Bandit, I think a lot of those horrible acts had to do with peoples hunger for power and their own agenda, instead of them trying to follow Gods ways.

I don't think so Jakko.

But anyway,

Rai, Clarence Seedorf is my cousin.

And as for the tolerance. It's not really that accurate. With all due respect to the Dutch people, and I know that there are many good Dutch people, including some in my family. There are lots of intolerant people also. Ask anyone who is from Aruba, from Surinam or from the Netherlands Antilles. Most of the people I know, have faced discrimination from Dutch people. I have also. One of my best friends was being threatened by Dutch skinheads who wanted to beat him up while he was at the ATM. The guy was right behind him, and he only backed off after he saw my friend, who is a police officer, take out his wallet in which had his police ID.

On the street it sometimes happen that people walking on the sidewalk or path try to avoid you and hold their bags tighter, when they see you (minding your own business) approaching.

I've been denied entrance to a nightclub because of my skin color. An amazing amount of Dutch people still think we in Aruba live in little shacks, and that we don't have running water or electricity. Once a guy even asked my mom (when she was studying in Holland) if she was living in a tree. Another guy came once to Aruba with candles, because he was convinced that the island did not have electricity. I'm so glad that he flew in at night.

In elementary school and high school I always had Dutch kids in my class. Some were really cool people, and I'm still friends with them. Then there were others who thought they were above the rest of the class because they were white and most of the rest not.

My dad is a retired sergeant-major in the Dutch marines. He went through 28 years (mostly on Aruba), in which he and other Arubian marines faced racism from the Dutch marines. They had a football (soccer) team for children. At first when I joined, everybody was whispering was looking at me and whispering to each other (een neger??, what doet hij hier???) A n#%#er??? What is he doing here??

Lots of people think Chinese, Arabs, Latin people etc... are black people.

These are just some examples that I and people close to me have experienced.

But still I know that there are good Dutch people around and I am good friends with a lot of them. In fact, I enjoy hanging around with some of them...

hehe Clarence Seedorf is ok. (beetje jammer dat hij geen strafschoppen kan nemen , maar goed).

I personally am totally against any form of mass-religion, gatherings of religious people in churches or mosques or whatever. God is just pretend.

Anyway, as I said earlier, it really is time for a right-wing policy in Holland, and most of Europe. 'The extreme' creates problems, both extreme left-wing and extreme right-wing politics, not right-wing politics.

If the current central-right government doesn't take propper action against extremists/ mosques, extreme-right will win significantly at the next elections, three years from now.

Left wing governments have avoided MANY problems for years. Before Fortuyn is was simply impossible to even start a debate about problamatic immigrants. Theo van Gogh used his columns, his provocative way of writing, to start debates.

Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
I personally am totally against any form of mass-religion, gatherings of religious people in churches or mosques or whatever. God is just pretend.

I'm shocked. (dit wist ik niet van jou)
I am quite sure that the God I believe in is not pretent. I have seen things with my own eyes that are unexplainable if it wasn't for the christian God.
How do you think people like me are supposed to deal with what they saw?

I know God exists, I can lie to you and pretend I don't, but the simple fact is that I do.

Once again, I repeated this loads of times, but religion itself does not always have to be bad. It's the ignorant people following a religion that can turn it into a disaster.
Once again, Jesus' story is clear enough!
You can not possibly claim to be a true christian while going against all the virtues shown by Jesus through his life.

Also look at what good things christianity gave us.
Our society is based on christian values, and we are considered "enlightened" countries comparesd to most contries based on Islamic values.

I might be late for this news but...
Eight held over murder of filmmaker

"Dutch prosecutors said police have arrested eight more suspected Muslim radicals as part of ongoing investigations into the brutal killing of outspoken Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh."

As far as I know seedorf was not discriminated for his scin but because he missed all the penalty's

It can be my error but still....

And one other thing the Dutch does not hate any people out of the netherlands only sometimes the one's that come and live there and than only the people from arab country's. I have heart so mayne people from the UK and VS who sad that amsterdam was the niced place on earth. It only seems that a lot of people dont like the Islam in the Netherlands

DJ,

I know some of it is because of the penalties, but also because of his color. Cocu and Frank de Boer missed some very important penalties as well on different occasions. Those were even more important than Clarence's penalties because they were in the semifinals of the World cup 98 and the Euro2000. Still they never got the hatred that Clarence received.. Another thing, although they don't say it now anymore, some years ago I frequently heard people say that they wanted all the nonwhite players out of the selection.

What I mentioned earlier is the truth, because it happened to me and to practically everyone around me. The Dutch media is another thing.... They only mention my island in negative articles. Especially the Telegraaf. One thing they like to do is consider someone Dutch if they did something big. Some examples of that is they considered Efrem Benita (Dave Benton), -an Arubian guy who won the Eurovision song festival (singing for Estonia) - to be Dutch, and native of Holland. And another time I was watching major league baseball on Dutch tv (NOS) and Andruw Jones of the Atlanta Braves was batting. They mentioned that he has a Dutch passport... But for the rest, if they're just regular people the Dutch media calls them Antillians (and sometimes they even call Arubians --> Antillians, while we haven't been Antillians since 1986.

A lot of Dutch people hate any colored people. I have experienced this first hand. It's not only the muslims. Years ago before the muslims arrived, they already considered us inferfior to them.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
DJ,

I know some of it is because of the penalties, but also because of his color. Cocu and Frank de Boer missed some very important penalties as well on different occasions. Those were even more important than Clarence's penalties because they were in the semifinals of the World cup 98 and the Euro2000.

That's untrue.
Seedorf is well known for his arrogance and pride.
He missed important penalties at key moments, and yes he may not have been the onlyone who missed important penalties, but the fact that people do not like him has nothing to do with his skincolor, it has to do with his attitude and his failures.

If you're going to act like a prima donna, you should at least play football like one, and he didn't.

So Ms. Hirsi Ali has gone into hiding....

"Screams, Ms. Hirsi Ali, that will cause chills to run down a person's back, and make the hairs on their heads stand straight up. People will be drunk with fear, while they are not drunken. Fear will fill the air on the Great Day," the letter said.
"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.

Jihad has already affected America and Europe. I worry for the Netherlands. These people seem intent on striking fear into the hearts of all. Its pathetic.

See article here.


Edit: Forgot Link.

[edit on 11/6/04 by HarmoniusOne]

Yesterday hundreds of Muslims gathered in Amsterdam to protest against violence and for peace.
Almost every Dutchman or -woman I've spoken to or seen on tv said something like: "I hope everyone knows this is just a small group which is in no way representing all Muslims in Holland."
What does worry me is how some Muslims support this act of violence while shouting they will not "stand by like the Jews in 1939" or wait till they'll be "transported to concentration camps" (quotes taken from forums.marokko.nl)
I fear Theo van Gogh was just the first...

"I hope everyone knows this is just a small group which is in no way representing all Muslims in Holland.

Yeah a small group that were inspired by the words of the KORAN.
The cause of the murder is the KORAN.

It's racism that kills blacks, not a small group white people.

It's nazism that killed the jews, not a few german soilders.

It's facism that killed the free people, not italion soilders.

It's Islam that kills inocent people in terrorist attacks, not arabs.

Look at asia, they are not arab's but muslims like the arabs and follow the same pattern beheading's, terrorist attacks.

The evil is no caused inthe blood of men, but by ideology

It's the ideology, mohammed the so called prohpot lives in these murderor's and his mentaility which he wrote down on a book is what caused this murder.

For all you people that believe that all religions follow the same god and are all good get out of the fairy tale.

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Thinker]

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Thinker]

Originally posted by Jakko

That's untrue.
Seedorf is well known for his arrogance and pride.
He missed important penalties at key moments, and yes he may not have been the onlyone who missed important penalties, but the fact that people do not like him has nothing to do with his skincolor, it has to do with his attitude and his failures.

If you're going to act like a prima donna, you should at least play football like one, and he didn't.

You don't know him personally, so you don't know how he really is. Point is, he remains popular in the whole of Europe. Does he have to be arrogant for that? He couldn't care less about the Dutch media because of the way they've been treating him from the beginning.

Let me tell you a story.

When Clarence had the opening ceremonies for a football stadium he built for the Surinam people, one Dutch reporter was there. Only one showed up. At the time I was still in Holland (I was going to be there in about a week). My family on my mom's side was invited to be there. That reporter was there with the family during the days of the opening. There were also some other football stars like Stanley Menzo, Winston Bogarde etc...

The Dutch reporter was from Sportweek, and because I came to Surinam late, I was able to bring the edition of sportweek that has the opening ceremony in it. I let everyone read it. It was soooo inaccurate you couldn't believe it. He made the place to be in the middle of the jungle with huge dangerous animals. Criticised everything. He said there was a huge 3 or 4 meter anaconda found in the stadium. My family saw it.... It was in fact a small garden snake not even 50 cm long.

And other just plain lies were featured in that article. So how do you want him to act friendly to the Dutch press and not "arrogant" as you say it, while they kick him in the ass all the time???

And when he plays good, everybody's mouth is SHUT!!! No mention of it. Give him a break.