So You Have Proven God Does Not Exist, Now What?

So You Have Proven God Does Not Exist, Now What?

reply to post by honested3



How many billions of people have had the brain capacity to solve or invent incredible things, yet they spent their lives thinking on gods and bibles? Take away the these fantasies and ONE of these people could've come up with a way to time travel or...who knows?

I can't remember the documentary I watched, but it claims that many of the great minds throughout history stopped their research because they couldn't go any further with the knowledge they had, so they simply assumed that the only answer left was god. I know that Newton was one of them. Imagine what more they could have come up with if a god wasn't in their vocabulary?

So, if the gods were finally proven to be false, the kids today would learn more than at any other time in our history.

Originally posted by jiggerj
So, if the gods were finally proven to be false, the kids today would learn more than at any other time in our history.

They might even prove the existence of God, to the chagrin of all atheists the whole world over..

I suppose I have just a few questions, without giving the matter much thought.

Assume, just for a moment that there is a God with all of the attributes anyone ascribes to Him. Absolute goodness, love, mercy, etc. The Being that created us and everything else that exists. Infinite in every respect. Could you meet such a being and not fall down and worship? Please consider that. We can't even see a newborn without getting all sentimental and squishy. But God? I don't see how I could stand in front of him, but would fall to my knees wanting to ask for His forgiveness, praise Him, accept His infinite love. If anyone could spit in His eye and say "I'm my own person, get lost," that person would have a serious deficiency in their heart and soul.

But, OK, say there is no God. Just the neurons and sub-atomic particles that go whirling around. Why bother to do anything at all? It's all meaningless. Whether you live or die, starve or feast, the result is the same. The particles will just keep whirling around after you stop using them.

"Ah, but there are things that are good I can do good things while I'm here." Really? You don't want to live a live based on lies and illusions, but on truth, right? So in the words of that famous hand washer "What is truth?"

I've heard various answers to that. One is "We should do whatever we want. That's a good thing." I simply say, Charles Manson (no relation to me). Or any of a million other headline makers, famous for doing what they thought was "good" and most other people thought was "bad." So, what's "good?" What the majority says is good? ATSers are too individual to accept that.

Eventually, in this kind of discussion, we get to "continuation of the species" is the real "good." That's a fine opinion to have, but what is it based on? There is no particular reason to accept that position, besides, the species will not survive. It may take ten years to kill us all off, or ten million years, but eventually even those atoms whirling around will become useless in the Heat Death.

The point is that sheer logic can never, by the rules of logic, get anyone to the point of saying that anything is "good." There has to be an accepted premise that "X" is good. Anything you put in place of "X" besides God is subject to the withering attack, "How do you know it's good? Even death is good sometimes."

If we accept the non-existence of God, we are left with only the delusions we follow, and the unsubstantiated claims we make. It's certainly possible, and sometimes even pleasant, to lie to ourselves, but that's not the life for me.

A little off topic but this film answers your OT if you watch it all.




The second coming starring Christopher eccleston...well worth the watch and the first bit is here you can find the rest.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by jiggerj
So, if the gods were finally proven to be false, the kids today would learn more than at any other time in our history.

They might even prove the existence of God, to the chagrin of all atheists the whole world over..

And ya know what? That would be GREAT! To actually come up with verifiable evidence would be AWESOME. But, just believing in some desert god won't get us there.

reply to post by FidelityMusic


Dear FidelityMusic,

I'll add on. Why is your God worthy of your following if you believe he harshly judges others based on them not believing him or following him? Do you not find your God to be a horrible being for knowingly allowing others to not be saved by simply not making himself present to mankind in this day and age? Has your God honestly lost touch with how humans thought process has changed over the centuries, and millenniums since Jesus arrived on this Earth?

Please show me where I said that God judges others harshly? You have many assumptions about what I believe and no understanding of what I have said in the past. My comment was simple, I am not here to "save" anyone, I do not have that power or authority. As to what salvation means and what it means to not be saved, you have no idea what I believe and never asked me.

reply to post by AQuestion


There was no assumption to be made as you made it clear you were a Christian. Now you're gonna tell me you're a Christian but only follow or believe half of what is in the book? Or that you only follow certain teachings within your denomination? You either are or you aren't, you can't put half faith and belief into something.

As a Christian you believe in the God portrayed in your book, otherwise you simply have no religious following and you've strayed away from your religion in search and pursuit of your own God, that you've pieced together with bits and pieces of your religious followings and life experiences.

Originally posted by FidelityMusic
reply to post by AQuestion

 

There was no assumption to be made as you made it clear you were a Christian. Now you're gonna tell me you're a Christian but only follow or believe half of what is in the book? Or that you only follow certain teachings within your denomination? You either are or you aren't, you can't put half faith and belief into something.

As a Christian you believe in the God portrayed in your book, otherwise you simply have no religious following and you've strayed away from your religion in search and pursuit of your own God, that you've pieced together with bits and pieces of your religious followings and life experiences.

Dear FidelityMusic,

I never said what denomination I was. I absolutely believe the bible speaks the truth, it is understanding what it says that is often clouded by people's personal preferences. When someone like Benny Hinn claims to be a christian and tells people that God is a giant slot machine, am I wrong to disagree with him? There are plenty of false prophets, which one do you think I must follow? My first thread on ATS was about Harold Camping (the "christian" that claimed the world would end), I said he was a false prophet spreading spiritual lies and poison. Atheists accused me of not being christian enough. LOL. He was proven to be a false prophet and his prophesies were lies. You might like to accuse me of judging him; but, I did not. The bible says that you will know a prophet because he is never wrong and Camping had already been wrong a couple of times. As for my beliefs, well a man who has preached before millions, was a missionary in Central and South America for almost 20 years and was an assistant to one of the most revered Pastors in the last 100 years recruited me to preach. I am still doing it so, I guess my beliefs are in line with our church. They do not have to be in line with the foolishness taught by others.

reply to post by jiggerj


Who says technological progress is anything worth praising over religious pursuits? Technology of today has brought us to a point where we no longer socialize with eachother but spend our faces stuck in a computer or smart phone, we have become more heartless and self absorbed through technology in my opinion. I know your posts and you are always a straightforward guy and I like that about you, so you and I both know the more advanced our technology is, the more capable we will become of destroying eachother. Technological and scientific progress does not equal human progress, it is not the end all. Our brightest minds spend their thought process on how to rip off the layman such as ourselves, and our brightest minds spend most of their brain power developing drugs to enlarge penises and further enhance our ability to put across a front of someone not us. No I am not saying technology in general is bad or anything, it does bring alot of good, but at the same time it is replacing our humanity. Maybe holding back technological progress is a good thing if your idea of "progress" is today's youth, I am being satirical of course. I will leave you with this;

"Always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". 2 Timothy 3:7

Who says technological progress is anything worth praising over religious pursuits?

reply to post by honested3


I don't think I said technological progress, but I will amend it anyway and say knowledge is what I meant. Yes, we have the technological means to destroy the planet, but you have to consider that the billions and billions of believers in a god have done nothing to turn us away from this path. Our entire species has been indoctrinated by the idea of peace and love for the last 6,000 years; evidently, this isn't working. And, it isn't working because of all the gods that have come and gone, humans are still humans. We haven't changed. We can't change. What you see in this world is what we are. Our needs and wants and emotions are exactly the same as it was in the oldest civilization.

Technological and scientific progress does not equal human progress,

Agree, but with religion we get dominated by ignorance. I'd like to continue but I have to get to work. Have a good day.

reply to post by jiggerj


This may shock you but I agree with you! I am Christian in the sense that I follow Christ and His teachings [or try to most of the times lol] I agree with you that "religion" has caused a lot of grief and has held back progress for centuries. When you talk about ignorance, I don't throw God's teaching under that same boat. There are some verses in the Bible encouraging one to be ignorant about the ways of the world, and that refers to the sinful things, but nowhere does it say to not pursue science or not learn of God's world which He created. In fact studying God's world can even bring you closer to Him. Where the divide comes into place is when we get to the areas where it brings up the old evolution vs creation, but that is a whole 'nother topic.

reply to post by honested3


TBH I think it says far more about you If the only thing stopping you do nasty things is your belief in God, Morality is in us all, It is not taught it is part of who we are without it we would have died off years ago.

reply to post by jiggerj

There is evidence of intelligent design and creative intent spread out all over the creation, even embedded in the earth, moon, sun and stars.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Go on then....but I think you will find far more credible evidence to show evolution is true.

reply to post by boymonkey74


You didn't read my post all the way, I said I wasn't being serious about God being the only thing holding me back from becoming a monster. But I agree with you that there is good embedded within us, I believe our sinful nature overwhelms it though. If we were created in the imaged of God, and God is love, then wouldn't that explain why we have that good embedded in us? Otherwise what explains the good in us? Apart from upbringing and environment?

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Go on then....but I think you will find far more credible evidence to show evolution is true.

I didn't say that evolution wasn't true. However it's framed and driven by a creative intent according to intelligent design.

Here take a look at this thread from this post from another thread on Page 19 through to the bottom of that page, and you'll get an idea of what I'm referring to. Then, after reviewing that and thinking on it deeply, come back and try to but forth an argument for random coincidence. I think you'll find that it doesn't work in the face of the data, which points to intelligent design by creative intent or what I call the Creative Agency.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

There is evidence of intelligent design and creative intent spread out all over the creation, even embedded in the earth, moon, sun and stars.

Agree. However, there is no evidence whatsoever of an ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, inVISible being who is EVERYWHERE, who created the WHOLE universe, who lives in another dimension called heaven, who is PERFECT in every way, and who was never born and will never die.

There are things that point to an intelligence that isn't perfect, which is why the universe will tear itself to shreds. The DNA of monkeys is more complicated than man's DNA by two extra chromosomes. However, weaved within the monkey's DNA are 200 potential inheritable genetic diseases. Again, man has two chromosomes LESS than monkeys (less complicated) and we have over FOUR THOUSAND potential inheritable genetic diseases.

Intelligent design? Okay, it's possible. A perfect god? Zero possibility.

Originally posted by jiggerj
Intelligent design? Okay, it's possible. A perfect god? Zero possibility.

Agreed, it is intelligent design and no its not perfect, but it once was though!

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." Romans 5:12

The original sin of Adam and Eve caused a perfect intelligently designed world, to become just as you said, a non perfect intelligently designed world.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

There is evidence of intelligent design and creative intent spread out all over the creation, even embedded in the earth, moon, sun and stars.

Agree. However, there is no evidence whatsoever of an ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, inVISible being who is EVERYWHERE, who created the WHOLE universe, who lives in another dimension called heaven, who is PERFECT in every way, and who was never born and will never die.

Intelligent design? Okay, it's possible. A perfect god? Zero possibility.

Very good description! That's about right.

But do you claim to be smarter than these men Pops (P.S. to the readership he's already given me permission to call him Pops)

The God Theory,
by Bernard Haisch

"The God Theory" by Bernard Haisch
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249274834&sr=8-1

Haisch is an astrophysicist whose professional positions include Staff Scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Deputy Director for the Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley, and Visiting Fellow at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. His work has led to close involvement with NASA; he is the author of over 130 scientific papers; and was the Scientific Editor of the Astrophysical Journal for nine years, as well as the editor in chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

an excerpt

If you think of whitte light as a metaphor of infinite, formless potential, the colors on a slide or frame of film become a structured reality grounded in the polarity that comes about through intelligent subtraction from that absolute formless potential. It results from the limitation of the unlimited. I contend that this metaphor provides a comprehensible theory for the creation of a manifest reality (our universe) from the selective limitation of infinite potential (God)...
If there exists an absolute realm that consists of infinite potential out of which a created realm of polarity emerges, is there any sensible reason not to call this "God"? Or to put it frankly, if the absolute is not God, what is it? For our purposes here, I will indentify the Absolute with God. More precisely I will call the Absolute the Godhead. Applying this new terminology to the optics analogy, we can conclude that our physical universe comes about when the Godhead selectively limits itself, taking on the role of Creator and manifesting a realm of space and time and, within that realm, filtering out some of its own infinite potential...
Viewed this way, the process of creation is the exact opposite of making something out of nothing. It is, on the contrary, a filtering process that makes something out of everything. Creation is not capricious or random addition; it is intelligent and selective subtraction. The implications of this are profound.

If the Absolute is the Godhead, and if creation is the process by which the Godhead filters out parts of its own infinite potential to manifest a physical reality that supports experience, then the stuff that is left over, the residue of this process, is our physical universe, and ourselves included. We are nothing less than a part of that Godhead - quite literally.

And just to show that this isn't the idle speculations of a mad scientist (however well credentialled), a colleague of Haisch when working with the very same set of equations actually derived Newton's famous equation of the law of motion F=M/A!

My first inkling that the deceptively simple "Let there be light" might actually contain a profound cosmological truth came in early July 1992. I was trying to wrap things up in my office in Palo Alto so that I could spend the rest of the summer doing research on the X-ray emission of stars at the Max Planck Institute in Garching, Germany. I came in one morning just before my departure and found a rather peculiar message on my answering machine; it had been left at 3 a.m.by a usually sober-minded colleague, Alfonso Rueda, a professor at California State University in Long Beach. He was so excited by the results of a horrifically-long mathematical analysis he had been grinding through that he just had to tell me about it, knowing full well I was not there to share the thrill.

What he had succeeded in doing was to derive the equation: F=ma. Details would follow in Germany.

Most people will take this in stride with a "so what?" or "what does that mean?" After all what are F, m and a, and what is so noteworthy about a scientist deriving a simple equation? Isn't this what scientists do for a living? But a physicist will have an incredulous reaction because you are not supposed to be able to derive the equation F=ma. That equation was postulated by Newton in his Principia, the foundation stone of physics, in 1687. A postulate is a law that you assume to be true, and from which other things follow: such as much of physics, for example, from that particular postulate. You cannot derive postulates. How do you prove that one plus one equals two? The answer is, you don't. You assume that abstract numbers work that way, and then derive other properties of addition from that basic assumption.

But indeed, as I discovered when I began to write up a research paper based on what Rueda soon sent to Garching, he had indeed derived Newton's fundamental "equation of motion." And the concept underlying this analysis was the existence of a background sea of light known as the electromagnetic zero-point field of the quantum vacuum.

from Brilliant Disguise: Light, Matter and the Zero-Point Field, by Bernard Haisch

Next, from Ervin Laszlo

Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything, 2004
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-1

And, his other seminal work
Science and the Reenchantment of the Cosmos: The Rise of the Integral Vision of Reality
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-6

Ervin Laszlo is considered one of the foremost thinkers and scientists of our age, perhaps the greatest mind since Einstein. His principal focus of research involves the Zero Point Field. He is the author of around seventy five books (his works having been translated into at least seventeen languages), and he has contributed to over 400 papers. Widely considered the father of systems philosophy and general evolution theory, he has worked as an advisor to the Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in both 2004 and 2005. A multidisciplinarian, Laszlo has straddled numerous fields, having worked at universities as a professor of philosophy, music, futures studies, systems science, peace studies, and evolutionary studies. He was a sucessful concert pianist until he was thirty eight.

In his view, the zero-point field (or the Akashic Field, as he calls it) is quite literally the "mind of God".

Naming Hal Puthoff, Roger Penrose, Fritz-Albert Popp, and a handful of others as "front line investigators", Laszlo quotes Puthoff who says of the new scientific paradigm:

[What] would emerge would be an increased understanding that all of us are immersed, both as living and physical beings, in an overall interpenetrating and interdependant field in ecological balance with the cosmos as a whole, and that even the boundary lines between the physical and "metaphysical" would dissolve into a unitary viewpoint of the universe as a fluid, changing, energetic/informational cosmological unity."

an excert from Science and the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything.

Akasha (a . ka . sha) is a Sanskrit word meaning "ether": all-pervasive space. Originally signifying "radiation" or "brilliance", in Indian philosophy akasha was considered the first and most fundamental of the five elements - the others being vata (air), agni (fire), ap (water), and prithivi (earth). Akasha embraces the properties of all five elements: it is the womb from which everything we percieve with our senses has emerged and into which everything will ultimately re-descend. The Akashic Record (also called The Akashic Chronicle) is the enduring record of all that happens, and has ever happened, in space and time."

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by honested3

 

TBH I think it says far more about you If the only thing stopping you do nasty things is your belief in God, Morality is in us all, It is not taught it is part of who we are without it we would have died off years ago.

Boy Monkey HBT, says I think more far about the annoying aspect things nasty everyone needs for you to buy us all night vision goggles to read your clever black on the fade opaque whatchamcallit; if you really wanted anyone to know who you are you could disapear completely black on black all typeface.