The Challenge of Qur'an

reply to post by BlueMule

Opposites are part of the truth. Things, even religions, come in pairs of opposites or not at all.

opposites exists to make the truth more clear, there is nothing like coldness or darkness they are just absence of heat or light but experiencing them makes you appreciate the heat and light more.

Similarly there are religions originating from God and religions that were made up due to absence of conciousness of the One true God.
They were allowed to exist by God because of non interfering in free will for a specific time but not actively made by God or even approved.

All religions are true, for their time and
place. And none are true, because God
transcends conceptualization.

i may put it in a different way, all religions have time/place independent universal truths and parts that were time/place specific.

If you accept this then the latest religion is more closer to truth than earlier and can be made universal especially if the scripture itself says so.
Islam is not a religion of just arabs and hinduism is not a religion of just indians, earlier religions were different and still all are from God because the world was not connected like now.
Also the basic of every God sent religion is "accept the next prophet" Jesus pbuh came to jews even when they already had Moses pbuh as a prophet. Right?
Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in OT, NT and even Hindu texts. Isn't that by Design? You may disagree to it and still believe what you believe but what do you think will happen when God's plan/design conflicts with your wishes/beliefs?

I am not claiming superiority for islam, i would risk going to hell if i get an ego about it, I am just pointing out and asking that do you agree or resist the idea "let God's Will be done" you have to reflect on that yourself.

A mystic by definition accepts whatever happens as Will of God. If you are resisting an idea and its clashing against your belief/opinion and making you affected then with all respect, you need to work more to 'let go.'

Originally posted by logical7

However Qur'an itself has a mini course on comparative religion in it. It has jewish history a lot, it talks of common origin of scriptures, also some idea of how pagan religions are practiced and idea of historically practiced religions when a prophet was sent to those nations.

IMO just reading Qur'an(even some english translations) is enough to get basics of comparative religion for the layman.

That's sort of like saying that studying human anatomy is enough to get the basics of comparative anatomy. It just isn't true.

All obviously can't study the subject academically.

True, but people can order the textbooks and reading list from Amazon.com, and teach themselves.

But all too often people think that studying their sacred text of choice is enough. It just isn't.

reply to post by BlueMule

That's sort of like saying that studying human anatomy is enough to get the basics of comparative anatomy. It just isn't true.

again you are giving a wrong example, Qur'an actually talks about Judaism, Christianity and even pagans and their beliefs, Qur'anic exegesis goes more in depth about history of religions and events.

But all too often people think that
studying their sacred text of choice is
enough. It just isn't.

Qur'anic scholars and exegesis writers have studied other texts to get historical background and details. Qur'an also encourages to read other texts and ask other religion scholars to clarify details about what Qur'an says. Qur'an constantly tells to go and 'ask people of knowledge' as to establish that Qur'an is telling the truth.
Isn't that comparative study?

reply to post by logical7


You know, I've always believed that those who go participate with an expectation of being convinced are more easily swayed than those who don't expect to be convinced. In other words, gullibility is not a suitable replacement for credibility.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

You know, I've always believed that those who go participate with an expectation of being convinced are more easily swayed than those who don't expect to be convinced. In other words, gullibility is not a suitable replacement for credibility.

i am against gullibility, i would not believe you if you tell me that God told you to get a 1000$ from me no matter how strongly i believe in God.
I respect credibility and intellectual honesty.
i also would not gain anything by convincing anyone about anything, i believe everyone was given a brain to use their own not others' to reach any conclusions.
The best thing is to have open minded discussions to let a higher truth come out no matter who speaks it. Its a different thing if people in the discussion including me have the integrity to accept it if it makes more sense than a opinion(part truth) they were holding on till then or just abandon the discussion when it rocks their beliefs or just shout in capitalised WORDS to silence that tiny voice inside them that wanted to agree.

Originally posted by logical7

opposites exists to make the truth more clear, there is nothing like coldness or darkness they are just absence of heat or light but experiencing them makes you appreciate the heat and light more.

That is one way to look at it. You look at it that way because that's the way God gave you to look at it.

"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." -Niels Bohr

Similarly there are religions originating from God and religions that were made up due to absence of conciousness of the One true God.

That's one way of looking at it. But scholarship says otherwise, I daresay. The consciousness of the One True God is in all religions, and all religions are in Him.

You were given your way of looking at this issue by God, not because its true but because your way has to exist in order for other ways to exist.

i may put it in a different way, all religions have time/place independent universal truths and parts that were time/place specific.

But how can all religions partake of the Perennial Philosophy if any of them lack the consciousness of the One true God? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

If you accept this then the latest religion is more closer to truth than earlier and can be made universal especially if the scripture itself says so.

Islam is the truth for the people of that time and place and that age.

We are in a new age now and a new time and place. A new culture.

If Islam is to be the last religion then world culture should have stopped changing hundreds of years ago.

But it didn't.

Also the basic of every God sent religion is "accept the next prophet" Jesus pbuh came to jews even when they already had Moses pbuh as a prophet. Right?

I don't accept that as a basic of every 'God sent' religion.

Religions have a life-cycle. They are born, they grow old, and they die.

I'm sure you think that Muhammad pbuh is the prophet that America should accept, since by your way of thinking he is the next. But America has its own prophets. By your logic, you should accept them.

By my logic you should accept the prophet given you for your time and place, and we should accept the prophet give us for our time and place.

By my logic we should endeavor to find the perennial philosophy in each other so that we can tolerate each other, not so that we can each try to assimilate the other.

Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in OT, NT and even Hindu texts. Isn't that by Design? You may disagree to it and still believe what you believe but what do you think will happen when God's plan/design conflicts with your wishes/beliefs?

When Muslims quit fighting each other, and agree among themselves that there is much they can learn from other religions then I will consider the possibility that Gods plan is for the world to convert to Islam.

We do need to learn about many things such as science and technology from other civilizations, but we do not need to learn about divine matters, truth and humanity from them. This is because the teachings of Islam on these matters are very precise. As Muslims, we are confident that Islam is based on the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) which carries the rahmatin lil alamin (blessing for the whole world and its content) mission. Not the teachings of Ammonius, Blavatsky, Guenon, Schuon, Armstrong or anybody else.

Source: ‘Perennial Philosophy’: Religious Confusion

Consider the above paper. If the teachings of Islam are so precise, why is there disagreement about the perennial philosophy among Muslims? Why do Muslims debate and kill each other? There should be no room for debate or violence if Islam is the last word for all Humanity.

I am not claiming superiority for islam, i would risk going to hell if i get an ego about it, I am just pointing out and asking that do you agree or resist the idea "let God's Will be done" you have to reflect on that yourself.

That is your belief given to you by God. Yet God seems to have given the author of the above paper another belief which permits him to claim superiority for Islam. How can such differences among Muslims exist, if Islam is precise and the last word for all Humanity? There should be no disagreements among Muslims at all.

A mystic by definition accepts whatever happens as Will of God. If you are resisting an idea and its clashing against your belief/opinion and making you affected then with all respect, you need to work more to 'let go.'

edit on 26-3-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

I accept that Islam exists. I accept that other religions also exist.

If and when something happens to change that, I will accept it.

reply to post by BlueMule

"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." -Niels Bohr

yes, rainbow has red is a truth, rainbow has green is another truth, the 'fact' is rainbow has all wavelengths of the visible spectrum.
If there are two truths that seem opposite then they are a part of a higher truth, but if something is false the same claim can't be made. I do agree that its difficult to prove anything as false as it just can be a truth that i can't see and that makes discussion with the one who sees it true as necessary.

But how can all religions partake of
the Perennial Philosophy if any of
them lack the consciousness of the
One true God? You seem to be
contradicting yourself.

no i am not, even pagans may have good/true moral teachings but because of no God conciousness, acting on them ends up making them feel morally superior opening a way for arrogance/self righteousness while God conciousness would have kept them humble.

Islam is the truth for the people of that
time and place and that age. We are in a new age now and a new
time and place. A new culture. If Islam is to be the last religion then
world culture should have stopped
changing hundreds of years ago. But it didn't.

if you see the above, it can be just a justification for your belief.
The moral principles in Qur'an are not time bound, good is still good and evil still evil, if a culture starts making evil as good and calling it new age, it doesn't make it true.

I'm sure you think that Muhammad
pbuh is the prophet that America
should accept, since by your way of
thinking he is the next. But America
has its own prophets. By your logic,
you should accept them.

i never heard of a prophet in America, any text by him/her? So that i can examine it?

By my logic you should accept the
prophet given you for your time and
place, and we should accept the
prophet give us for our time and place.

how do you define the time limit and area limit for a prophet?
Are people who are christians more that 1500 yrs old and all muslims about 1400 or younger?

By my logic we should endeavor to
find the perennial philosophy in each
other so that we can tolerate each
other, not so that we can each try to
assimilate the other.

i agree to that.

Consider the above paper. If the
teachings of Islam are so precise, why
is there disagreement about the
perennial philosophy among Muslims?
Why do Muslims debate and kill each
other? There should be no room for debate or violence if Islam is the last
word for all Humanity.

simple, muslims don't follow islam completely.

Originally posted by logical7

I'm sure you think that Muhammad
pbuh is the prophet that America
should accept, since by your way of
thinking he is the next. But America
has its own prophets. By your logic,
you should accept them.

i never heard of a prophet in America, any text by him/her? So that i can examine it?

"The English word prophet comes from the Greek word προφήτης (profétés) meaning advocate." Wiki

My mystical tradition is comparativism. My main comparativist advocates ("prophets") are Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Jeffrey J Kripal. All have been contacted by the Divine.

As have I.

All of them have written many books that you can examine. I've read most of them.

I measure the range of a prophet by astrological age and cultural borders. I believe we are in the age of Aquarius now, and I believe that God sends new prophets for every age to every culture.

simple, muslims don't follow islam completely.

When Islam is strong and clear enough to persuade all Muslims to follow Islam completely, then I will be impressed enough with Islam to consider the possibility that Gods plan is for the world to convert to it.

But that will not happen, because Gods plan is for complementary pairs of opposites to exist within the world, within all cultures, within all religions, and within all people. Sort of like yin and yang existing within the transcendent unity of the Tao.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

Qur'an might have been good at it's time but the limitation of will of god you put on your women is not of god but of man. Anybody who believe in keeping another soul enslaved by dogma or keeping them ignorant and think that god is on that his side is greatly deluding himself.

what if what you were told about islam is not true?
Here's a simple way to find out,
"if someone gives you information that will benefit him/her if you believe in it blindly then maybe you better be careful and check for yourself."

For example,
if a pagan tells a nature lover that islam wants to cut down all trees as Qur'an commands, while pagans worship them, should the nature lover believe it?

Now here's a fact, majority percentage of muslim converts in the Western world are women. That kind of refutes what you have assumed.

edit on 25-3-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

If a woman wants to limit herself and follow a certain custom then that is her choice since it might fit her. But all kids who are born of any religion parents should have a right to be totally nonreligious from the start and then choose their own path by their own intuition when they can choose.

God knows the best road for a soul and have hidden the map in the unconscious.



I am not saying that for some Islam can lead them home. I am in fact wanting to figure out what roads gives the biggest possibility to get souls home if there is one that fits the majority of souls. That view will of course be dogmatic to to those who do not fit the majority but probably if that way exists then it is not created yet. Ahh the limitation of not knowing all.

reply to post by BlueMule

"The English word prophet comes from the Greek word προφήτης (profétés) meaning advocate." Wiki My mystical tradition is comparativism. My main comparativist advocates ("prophets") are Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Jeffrey J Kripal. All have been contacted by the Divine. As have I.

so you are prophet in the making?

well according to your belief, i am wrong as there would have been newer advocates at my place whom i should be following.

I measure the range of a prophet by
astrological age and cultural borders. I
believe we are in the age of Aquarius
now, and I believe that God sends
new prophets for every age to every
culture.

hmm.. you believe? Do you have a divine source to reach that belief? You also believe in astrology.
I find all this very interesting as your whole belief is based on your own ideas.
I have no right to judge and i don't mean any offence, it just doesn't seem like a good way and it doesn't even fit a mystic.
On one hand you believe scriptures are from God yet you have no belief that those scriptures advocate, its like you accept everything yet believe nothing of what you accepted, its just confusing!

But that will not happen, because
Gods plan is for complementary pairs
of opposites to exist within the world,
within all cultures, within all religions,
and within all people. Sort of like yin
and yang existing within the transcendent unity of the Tao.

you can't be sure. Can you?

You are advocating that evil remains equal to good to balance the yin & yang.
I will be happy to accept it if you show me any divine text that says so, otherwise you are free to have your opinion but i would like that yoù do accept that its your opinion and can be wrong and yoú say it without a 'but'.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

But all kids who are born of any religion parents should have a right to be totally nonreligious from the start and then choose their own path by their own intuition when they can choose.

i think all kids should be exposed to at least major religions say in school as a class while parents raise them in their own religion and once they are grown up enough to think for themselves then they should be free to stick to family religion or drift to any which they feel more better.

Parents have a right on their kids, raising them like strangers is cruel to kids and parents.
Thats more of an atheistic thinking that all kids should be raised without any religion!
Beliefs are powerful things and your suggestion is impractical.

I do believe parents should rather listen to the kids and learn.

Originally posted by logical7

so you are prophet in the making?

Maybe. Maybe not.

I have made 'night journey' to Heaven and seen God and came back again. I have learned at the feet of the Divine. I have received Divine Grace. I have studied the comparative fields for several years. I have commanded spirits and defeated demons and seen the future in dreams in the service of God. I have friends in high places. Does that make me a prophet?

I haven't started a religion and I don't intend to. I haven't written any books. If those are necessary criteria, then I'm not a prophet.

well according to your belief, i am wrong as there would have been newer advocates at my place whom i should be following.

The age is young.

hmm.. you believe? Do you have a divine source to reach that belief?

I have seen the historical pattern through the comparative fields. Study them and you will too.

Here is a link to a great book about Christianity and the age of Pisces.

You also believe in astrology.
I find all this very interesting as your whole belief is based on your own ideas.

Didn't you know that the stars and planets are alive? You should learn to listen to them. They serve Divine Will. The wise have always recognized that, that's why astrology is a universal common denominator in world religion and myth.

On one hand you believe scriptures are from God yet you have no belief that those scriptures advocate, its like you accept everything yet believe nothing of what you accepted, its just confusing!

Just when you think you understand a mystic, a curve-ball is thrown. Beware!

you can't be sure. Can you?

No one can be sure that their concepts encompass the Divine totality. Not me, not you. Not even the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. That's why The Cloud of Unknowing is an important part of my mysticism. I think you would like reading it.

Concepts and ideas must be left behind in order to enter the cloud of unknowing. That's where God is.

You are advocating that evil remains equal to good to balance the yin & yang.
I will be happy to accept it if you show me any divine text that says so, otherwise you are free to have your opinion but i would like that yoù do accept that its your opinion and can be wrong and yoú say it without a 'but'.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -Isaiah 45:7

The transcendent God is beyond good and evil, and at the same time encompasses them. Beyond religion, beyond culture, beyond ideas.

Let go of them. That's the only way to embrace them.

'Out beyond ideas
of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field.

I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down
in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language
- even the phrase "each other" -
do not make any sense.'

-Rumi

reply to post by BlueMule


i'l read the book about 'unknowing' thanks for it.
Btw Islam forbids faith in astronomy, muslims rather put trust in the Creator of those planets and stars
i like Rumi's poems a lot, the one that you posted is one of my favourite.
It was nice talking to you, you have confused me but ok i guess i can't understand mystics, i definitely can't argue with you, maybe i'l just take from you what i understood.

reply to post by logical7


OK. It was nice talking to you too. It helped me very much.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

But all kids who are born of any religion parents should have a right to be totally nonreligious from the start and then choose their own path by their own intuition when they can choose.

i think all kids should be exposed to at least major religions say in school as a class while parents raise them in their own religion and once they are grown up enough to think for themselves then they should be free to stick to family religion or drift to any which they feel more better.

Parents have a right on their kids, raising them like strangers is cruel to kids and parents.
Thats more of an atheistic thinking that all kids should be raised without any religion!
Beliefs are powerful things and your suggestion is impractical.

I do believe parents should rather listen to the kids and learn.

That is the real problem. Parents are teaching things to kids as the true way that they will have a hard time to break free from. The kids have just arrived and are more natural needing of love and creating symbiotic bonds than the parents that have lost some things by growing up in this insane world.

I wonder if you can get a child to push thru the mind/ego barrier at an earlier age since the ego is not as developed then so that they can feel the light. If you where able to do that they you could create a whole country of people who have the spiritual connection inside them. That would be the manipulators bad dream. A people who can feel god and take help of god to create what they want not what greedy power hungry people want.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

I wonder if you can get a child to push thru the mind/ego barrier at an earlier age since the ego is not as developed then so that they can feel the light. If you where able to do that they you could create a whole country of people who have the spiritual connection inside them. That would be the manipulators bad dream. A people who can feel god and take help of god to create what they want not what greedy power hungry people want.

i completely agree with you.

It is still impractical, parents who don't think this way will never agree, they want to pass down their own beliefs too badly when they themselves have never examined their beliefs and had just recieved them from their own parents.

This cycle can't be broken in one generation, it has to start with making kids realise that there are other religions and they have a choice.
Parents themselves examining their own beliefs rather than blindly believing will also help a lot.

Spirit guided me to the Qu'ran too. It's an outstanding book. I haven't read the whole book yet. After reading the first pasages, that night, in bed, I felt comforted but I still can make a lot of progress.

I'd say it's a good book when one has doubts about things. The passages I read made a lot clear to me.

I should buy the book.

Muslim means 'one that is obedient to God', not?

And lying is easy.