The Challenge of Qur'an

I would say that hopefully soon all religions will be scrapped since they will not be needed anymore because the thing you pray to will reveal the next higher level understanding of what is.

God caters to the level of the students and increases the lessons/understanding as time goes by.

Qur'an might have been good at it's time but the limitation of will of god you put on your women is not of god but of man. Anybody who believe in keeping another soul enslaved by dogma or keeping them ignorant and think that god is on that his side is greatly deluding himself.

To Bluemule:

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

not true, Qur'an itself says its for all mankind and its the last revealation to the last Prophet

It may say that, log7, but that doesn't mean what BlueMule says isn't true.
The Bible, I believe, also says that it's for all mankind forever, the be-all and end-all.
Sorry, but no religion has a monopoly on the Truth (although Ba'hai looks better than the rest of the Abrahamic derivatives, in my opinion)

I kinda agree. Ba'hai seem to be closer to nonduality than the other Abrahamic views.

And truth is a to strong word. They can point to what is but are still just simplifications of what is. Not the truth since the define some things and cause duality because of it. The only way to know the truth is to know all that is and that includes all views in all awareness of what is. You can make philosophical ideas that are the truth but that is because they have undefined parts in them. When you start to measure/define what is then you have to know all to be specific of what is to not have created a lie of what is.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

It talks about One God, respecting all prophets equally and that all scriptures are from the same Source. Isn't it an all accepting idea?
Its destroys racism and even nationalism both of which have been and still are two major factors that keep people divided.
Doesnt it have universal appeal?

Yes, as much as any other pure religion promotes peace and acceptance, it does.

Yes because all religions(monotheistic) came from the same Source and then got partly changed by inclusion of human ideas for selfish interests like control, gains etc. That made it necessary to send newer prophets.
Polytheistic religions are a human invention and it may have some truths but monotheistic faiths have more including those some and so polytheism can be ignored to simplify things.

Qur'an asks the readers to observe, ponder, reflect and think before accepting anything.

The problem arises when people stick to their beliefs even when it does not make sense to themselves.

Qur'an also provides a psychological sketch of different type of people.
Let me give an example, maybe you could understand better as its your field of study.

41:29. And those who disbelieve will say: "Our Lord! Show us those among jinns
and men who led us astray, we shall
crush them under our feet, so that
they become the lowest."

as you see, it describes the Judgement Day.
The people who did wrongs and disbelieved will still not accept that they are responsible, rather want to blame and punish others.
I may call them 'perpetual self proclaimed victims'

the example teaches to not be that and take responsibility.
Qur'an constantly asks to reflect on its verses to recieve guidance.

Qur'an is not a Book about killing infidels and oppressing women. It just got very bad press recently and earlier it was kept away from Europe by the church for very obvious reasons.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

Qur'an might have been good at it's time but the limitation of will of god you put on your women is not of god but of man. Anybody who believe in keeping another soul enslaved by dogma or keeping them ignorant and think that god is on that his side is greatly deluding himself.

what if what you were told about islam is not true?
Here's a simple way to find out,
"if someone gives you information that will benefit him/her if you believe in it blindly then maybe you better be careful and check for yourself."

For example,
if a pagan tells a nature lover that islam wants to cut down all trees as Qur'an commands, while pagans worship them, should the nature lover believe it?

Now here's a fact, majority percentage of muslim converts in the Western world are women. That kind of refutes what you have assumed.

Originally posted by logical7

If it has universal principles of truth and justice for all then why can't all benefit from it?
It talks about One God, respecting all prophets equally and that all scriptures are from the same Source. Isn't it an all accepting idea?
Its destroys racism and even nationalism both of which have been and still are two major factors that keep people divided.
Doesnt it have universal appeal?

Yes it does, but "Arabic is not just the original language of the Qur'an, it is the language of the Qur'an." -Michael Cook

Too much of the Qur'an is lost in translation. If the world were to convert then the world would have to learn Arabic in order to fully absorb the Qur'an.

It isn't fair to expect other cultures to learn or switch to the Arabic language when God can just send them all their own sacred text in their own language and for their time and place and personality.

Every culture deserves the dignity of a sacred text in its own language, its own soul.

"Language is the blood of the soul into which thoughts run and out of which they grow."

-Oliver Wendell Holmes

If God wanted all cultures to speak one language he would not have destroyed the tower of Babel.



"Love doesn't just sit there, like a stone; it has to be made, like bread, remade all the time, made new."

-Ursula K. Le Guin

reply to post by LittleByLittle

The only way to know the truth is to know all that is and that includes all views in all awareness of what is. You can make philosophical ideas that are the truth but that is because they have undefined parts in them. When you start to measure/define what is then you have to know all to be specific of what is to not have created a lie of what is.

that makes sense. So why not start by doing the opposite and find out, 'what is not'
or 'what is not the Truth'
what would be left after there is no more refining possible will be the Truth.

Btw, Islam is nondualistic or believes in Advaita (no two)

reply to post by BlueMule

Yes it does, but "Arabic is not just the original language of the Qur'an, it is the language of the Qur'an." -Michael Cook
Too much of the Qur'an is lost in translation.

couldn't agree enough with you.

If the world were to
convert then the world would have to
learn Arabic in order to fully absorb
the Qur'an.

54:17. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and
remember, then is there any that will
remember (or receive admonition)?
The same is repeated in 54:22 ,54:31 and 54:40 to get the message across

there are hundreds of thousands of non-arabs (even kids as young as 10) who have memorised the Whole Qur'an.

It isn't fair to expect other cultures to
learn or switch to Arabic language
when God can just send them all their
own sacred text in their own
language that their culture can
resonate with in their time and place and personality. Every culture deserves a sacred text in
its own language.

it was done,

16:36. And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a
Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship
Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep
away from) Taghut (all false deities,
etc. i.e. do not worship Taghut besides
Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were
some upon whom the straying was
justified. So travel through the land
and see what was the end of those
who denied (the truth).

14:4. And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his
people, in order that he might
make (the Message) clear for
them. Then Allah misleads whom
He wills and guides whom He
wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

but there has to be a climax to it all by uniting all through a final message

25:51,Now had We so willed. We could have
[continued as before and] raised up a
[separate] warner in every single
community

If God wanted all cultures to speak
one language he would not have
destroyed the tower of Babel.

i dont think God made many languages because He got afraid that humans will co-operate and make a tower to reach Heaven!
The reason could be as simple then as now, 'arrogance'. Skyscrapers jùst feed the 'ego'

Originally posted by logical7

The reason could be as simple then as now, 'arrogance'. Skyscrapers jùst feed the 'ego'

Could be.

Q: If the world were to convert to Islam, whose ego would be fed?

A: Arabic cultures

Remember that poem by Rumi?

Gods voice:
I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.

-Rumi

If the world coverts to Islam, all those separate and unique ways would be destroyed. There would be only one way of seeing and knowing and saying. There would be one language, one book, one culture. One triumphant tower of ego in the Middle East.

And there would be little or no room for my unique way, which was given to me by God. The way of comparative scholarship.

"The origins of the discipline of religious studies in nineteenth-century Europe are not primary mystical or even religious. A highly developed secular sense is a sine qua non of the discipline and its social sustainability anywhere on the planet (hence its virtual absense outside the Western academy). I would like, though, to make a restricted and heterodox case that regarding the discipline as a modern mystical tradition could be useful in approaching the constructive tasks being explored in these reflections. In this, I am not suggesting that the discipline must or even should be read in this way.

Rather, I wish only to make the much more restricted, but no less unorthodox, case that some of the discipline's practices and practitioners (that is, those capable of forging a tensive mystical-critical practice out of the discipline's dual Romantic/Enlightenment heritage) can be read in such a way, and that, moreover, such a mystical-critical rereading of the discipline might be useful for the constructive tasks under discussion here, namely, the cross-cultural influence of religious systems toward a safer, more humane, and more religiously satisfying world.

Scholars of religion, it turns out, often have profound religious experiences reading and interpreting the texts they critically study, and these events have consequences for the methods and models they develop, the conclusions they come to, and even for the traditions they study.

Poetically speaking, gnostic thought recognizes that religious expressions function as symbols and, as such, are simultaneously true and false, that they both reveal and conceal. Reductionism and revelation lie down together here in a (post)modern form of what the Sufi tradition understood as the paradox of the veil (hijab), that is, the psychological and linguistic necessity of cultural forms that reveal the divine light (which is in itself beyond all representation) precisely by concealing it behind veiled symbols and signs." -Jeffrey J. Kripal

reply to post by LittleByLittle

The only way to know the truth is to know all that is and that includes all views in all awareness of what is. You can make philosophical ideas that are the truth but that is because they have undefined parts in them. When you start to measure/define what is then you have to know all to be specific of what is to not have created a lie of what is.

Beautifully stated.
Yes.

reply to post by BlueMule

Q: If the world were to convert to Islam, whose ego would be fed? A: Arabic cultures

the first things islam did was destroy the wrong things in arab culture.
Majority muslims are non arab and practice their own culture including me. Any culture is fine, maybe only some wrong things would have to go.

Remember that poem by Rumi?

Gods voice:
I have given each being a separate
and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying
that knowledge. -Rumi

If the world coverts to Islam, all those
separate and unique ways would be
destroyed. There would only be only
one way of seeing and knowing and
saying. There would be one language,
one book, one culture. One triumphant tower of ego in the Middle
East.

i dont see it that way, its very possible to know few languages, native and arabic, most know english. right?
Islam is not shackles! Its just a framework of morals and ethics.
Everyone has them even now, the ones who would be suffering are criminals and i don't think you mind if crime gets almost eradicated.

You think i do nothing else except what islam tells me to do everyday?! Or i don't think anymore?

reply to post by logical7


Well then I don't see the need to convert the world to Islam.

But lets say that hypothetically the world did indeed convert. Given how much of the Qur'an is lost in translation, an elite would develop. An elite that knows Arabic. Elite people who have Arabic as their native language. Elite cultures who are originally Arabic. Elite nations.

That would create social pressure to make Arabic the dominant language all over the world. Who would want to miss out on so much of the only sacred text simply because they don't know the only sacred language? Who would want their children to miss out?

Eventually, other languages would die out. And with them other cultures.

The Qur'an is a beautiful sacred book and Arabic culture has dignity. But it should not be the only religion. No single religion should be the only religion.

Just as red should not be the only color of the rainbow. Even though its the longest wavelength.

reply to post by BlueMule

But lets say that hypothetically the world did indeed convert. Given how much of the Qur'an is lost in translation, an elite would develop. An elite that knows Arabic. Elite people who have Arabic as their native language. Elite cultures who are originally Arabic. Elite nations.

even now the best arabic/Qur'anic scholars are not just arabs.
Do you think anyone cares more about Britain or USA just because english is now known globally?

Qur'anic arabic is anyways now not the same as local arabic in ME. Its classical arabic that is not spoken now.
Are all the hebrew scholars from jewish culture?

No
single religion should be the only
religion. Just as red should not be the only
color of the rainbow. Even though its
the longest wavelength.

your comparison of religion with colour is not accurate.
I could say islam is white light and people are prisms which refract different wavelengths, when they all recieve the light, the world will be a rainbow.

I am not here to make the whole world muslim by force
but i do think that everyone should take a look at Qur'an and learn at least something and think for themselves and not blindly follow any culture and/or belief assuming it to be true just because its their's.

reply to post by logical7


Pray to your lord and 'sacrifice' what?

reply to post by logical7


We do find it a bit odd
how you keep believing this fraud
when there is no evidence for your god

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by logical7

 

Pray to your lord and 'sacrifice' what?

Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice. meaning, `just as We have given you the abundant goodness in this life and the Hereafter -- and from that is the river that has been described previously(name of one river in Paradise is al kawthar) -- then make your obligatory and optional prayer, and your sacrifice (of animals) solely and sincerely for your Lord. Worship Him alone and do not associate any partner with him. And sacrifice pronouncing His Name alone, without ascribing any partner to Him.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by logical7

 

We do find it a bit odd
how you keep believing this fraud
when there is no evidence for your god

well there is no direct evidence of God otherwise who would be atheist. Right?

The Qur'an provides an indirect evidence by making itself a proof.
Its takes the reader from the 'Seen' and provable things to the 'Unseen'
If Qur'an is right about the observable things and even predicts future scientific discoveries then what other things it says can be taken as true just like a trustworthy witness.
Here are some verses for atheist/polytheists

21:30. Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth
were joined together as one united
piece, then We parted them? And We
have made from water every living
thing. Will they not then believe?

51:48 And the heaven We built
with Our own powers and
indeed We go on
expanding it.

21:33. And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the
moon, each in an orbit floating.

10:16 He it is Who made the sun
radiate a brilliant light and
the moon reflect a lustre,
and ordained for it proper
stages, that you might
know the count of years and the reckoning of time.
Allah has not created this
system but in accordance
with the requirements of
truth. He details the signs
for a people who possess knowledge.

23:12-14, We created man from an essence of
clay, then We placed him as a drop of
fluid in a safe place. Then We made
that drop of fluid into a clinging form,
and then We made that form into a
lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those
bones with flesh, and later We made
him into other forms. Glory be to God
the best of creators.

"We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?" [Al-Quran Surah Fussilat 41: 53]

Originally posted by logical7
your comparison of religion with colour is not accurate.
I could say islam is white light and people are prisms which refract different wavelengths, when they all recieve the light, the world will be a rainbow.

The transcendent God is the white light. The One Light. The Sunlight. World religion and myth are the colors. They span a spectrum as harmonious and beautiful as the rainbow. They are a symphony singing the song of the universe.

All religions, all this singing, one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.

Sunlight looks a little different on this wall
than it does on that wall

and a lot different on this other one,
but it is still one light.

-Rumi

I am not here to make the whole world muslim by force

but i do think that everyone should take a look at Qur'an and learn at least something and think for themselves and not blindly follow any culture and/or belief assuming it to be true just because its their's.

I think so too.

I think everyone should take a look at every sacred text, not just the Qur'an.

That's where comparative religion, comparative mysticism, and comparative mythology come in.

It's not enough to simply pick up the sacred texts of other cultures and start reading. It must be disciplined and systematic. There must be scholarship.

Do you know any Muslims who study these academic fields in school?

Do you know of any schools in the Middle East that offer classes in these subjects?

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia...

...have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain.

For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science."

-Joseph Campbell

reply to post by BlueMule

All religions, all this singing, one song. The differences are just illusion and vanity.

isn't it nice to separate the illusion and vanity and find the common core?
Religions have different ideas, many times opposite to other religion, logically only one can be true.
Its also a matter of truth, just because many worship money, i would not include it and respect it as a religion.
Many religions/cultures are based on making human desires supreme. Just because they have a few truths does not mean that they should be accepted as a whole.
Standing for the Truth also requires calling wrong as "wrong" and not "ok."
If you do mix all religions and refine away the vanities and wrongs that have creeped in, you'l get an extract that in essence is Islam(not the label, its submitting to God alone and being constantly concious of God)
The other behaviours automatically fall in place when there is God conciousness.
Thats the message of Qur'an.

If it leads to change of some cultures or even destruction of some, should it really bother you or me? Will you be sad if consumerism is gone and the super rich lose a fortune? Will you be bothered if the youth stop boozing and grinding all night to seek momentary escapes from reality and rather be at peace all the time and do more productive and soul nourishing things?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by BlueMule

 

All religions, all this singing, one song. The differences are just illusion and vanity.

isn't it nice to separate the illusion and vanity and find the common core?

Yes, but we must have all things in moderation.

Or we have nothing.

Religions have different ideas, many times opposite to other religion, logically only one can be true.

Opposites are part of the truth. Things, even religions, come in pairs of opposites or not at all.

All religions are true, for their time and place. And none are true, because God transcends conceptualization.

Its also a matter of truth, just because many worship money, i would not include it and respect it as a religion. Many religions/cultures are based on making human desires supreme. Just because they have a few truths does not mean that they should be accepted as a whole.

They should be accepted as part of the whole. As a thread in the tapestry. As a color of the rainbow.

Islam is also a thread. No more no less.

Standing for the Truth also requires calling wrong as "wrong" and not "ok."

All such judgments as that are predicated by your psychological type. Not by your ability to grasp transcendent Truth. The psychological types of Humanity span a spectrum. No single type can exist without the others just as black can't exist without white, up without down, male without female.

God encompasses and transcends them all, and He expresses them all through the spectrum of world religions.

So stand for truth as you see it, but love your enemy as you do, because God is there too.

If you do mix all religions and refine away the vanities and wrongs that have creeped in, you'l get an extract that in essence is Islam(not the label, its submitting to God alone and being constantly concious of God)
The other behaviours automatically fall in place when there is God conciousness.
Thats the message of Qur'an.

The extract is called the Perennial Philosophy.

It is found in all religions, including Islam.

From the beginning, Islam has considered itself to be the final flourishing of perennial wisdom before the “end of times”. The Qur'an is replete with references to earlier religious figures from the Jewish and Christian traditions, considering that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mary and other holy figures were always muslim (i.e. they believed in one god only). The idea of a single religious truth is more apparent among the Sufi or mystical traditions of Islam, with parallelisms in the Judaeo-Christian and Hindu tradition, than it is among orthodox scholars, who recognise the Jewish and Christian truths, but by necessity reject all beliefs that seem contrary to Islam (such as the Trinity, the sonship of Christ, or the reality of the crucifixion). Some very vocal versions of Islam on the other hand (e.g. Salafism), reject in their entirety all other religious traditions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism.

The ninth-Century philosopher Al-Farabi (872–950), the 10th century Islamic philosopher advocated the idea of philosophy and religion being two avenues to the same truth. His own personal philosophy strongly emphasized a classification of knowledge and science on the basis of methodology. Thus, he described his notion of an esoteric philosophy which referenced the eternal truth or wisdom which lies at the heart of all traditions as a "science of reality" based on the method of "certain demonstration" (al-burhan al-yaqini). This method is a combination of intellectual intuition and logical conclusions of certainty (istinbat). He reasoned that it was therefore a superior kind of knowledge to the exoteric domain of religions (millah) since that relied on a method of persuasion (al-iqna), not demonstration. This philosophy is compared with the philosophia perennis of Leibniz and later in the 20th century, Frithjof Schuon.[22] Al-Farabi developed a theory to explain the diversity of religions. He posited that religions differed from one another because the same spiritual and intellectual truths can have different "imaginative representations". He further stated that there was a unity of all revealed traditions at the philosophical level, since all nations and peoples must have a philosophical account of reality that is one and the same.[23]

Other examples of Islamic "perennialists" are Sarmad Kashani, his student Dara Shikoh and the Mughal emperor Jalal-ud-Din Muhammad Akbar, who created the philosophy of Din-e Ilahi.

If it leads to change of some cultures or even destruction of some, should it really bother you or me? Will you be sad if consumerism is gone and the super rich lose a fortune? Will you be bothered if the youth stop boozing and grinding all night to seek momentary escapes from reality and rather be at peace all the time and do more productive and soul nourishing things?

For a golden age to exist there must be an age of boozing and grinding. It's a pair of opposites and each can't exist without the other. God is in each. God is in every pair of opposites, every archetype, every religion, every color.

So judge not. Lest ye be judged.

reply to post by BlueMule

Do you know any Muslims who study these academic fields in school?

Do you know of any schools in the Middle East that offer classes in these subjects?

I don't know anyone personally but i do know that many muslims study comparative religion especially in the West.
There are some universities in egypt who teach that but i don't know about other ME countries.
However Qur'an itself has a mini course on comparative religion in it. It has jewish history a lot, it talks of common origin of scriptures, also some idea of how pagan religions are practiced and idea of historically practiced religions when a prophet was sent to those nations.

IMO just reading Qur'an(even some english translations) is enough to get basics of comparative religion for the layman. All obviously can't study the subject academically.