Does chaos magic suggest that Gods/God does not exist, that we created them, or that we are actually

Originally posted by yampa
You didn't say anything about what the OP was posting about? You didn't address what I asked or what the OP was talking about? You said nothing about which current theories have speculated about the connection between the mind and the multiverse theory?

Why are you so hung-up on multiverses?

Because this is what I originally contributed to this thread:

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
If one were to believe in a inifinite multiverse type reality where all possibilities can occur then this has actually happened.

I emphasised the important part of my post. I am not asking you to adhere to this theory, as a matter of fact, I could not care if you do or do not. The only relevance is that modern super-symmetry theories require a multiverse type enviornment to explain the current model.

In an infinite multiverse a place exists where the Original Poster's reality is what is oberservable. My point is do we know for a fact that we are not inhabiting said reality? Can we definitively prove one way or the other whether what is outlined is accurate or not with our current technology and understanding of how conscious life interacts with the physical universe?

I believe the answer at this time to be a resounding 'no', which leads me to keep my mind open that while things may not be probable to be occuring or observable, they are infact possible.

God does not require belief to exist.

In my view, God has many, many manifestations - each one to appeal to a particular culture or 'audience' (for lack of a better word). Sometimes, to me, God is a parent figure, sometimes God is the Grass and the Trees, sometimes Thoth, the font of knowledge, sometimes Ganesh, the over-comer of obstacles. Every day, sometimes even hourly, I change my belief in the nature of God.

The way I perceive God at any particular moment does not change who or what God is. It simply helps me to relate to that supreme being in a way that I could not if I were restricted to thinking of God in one particular way.

Chaos is the same - we change our beliefs in the laws of nature at a whim - because by changing our beliefs in what we think we know, we may just stumble on a truth and get results.

As a chemistry lecturer at a university driven by research, it works wonders to discard everything that you know and change your beliefs to something novel. As a researcher, I do not think there is any single act more useful to research than to believe in something that nobody else does. It is where the greatest discoveries come from.

In a way, this is exactly what chaos is to Magick, and it is to me the key to understanding the nature of God. Chaos and God are not mutually exclusive - in fact, the key to understanding them is identical.

To me, at least...

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I believe the answer at this time to be a resounding 'no', which leads me to keep my mind open that while things may not be probable to be occuring or observable, they are infact possible.

But as CIAgypsy has already said - it is a given here that we are accepting that the mind could possibly perturb reality. If we don't accept that postulate as possible then there is no discussion. The point is, what evidence do you have that is possible in this universe?

Reciting over and over that 'anything is possible' does not communicate that you have high demands for physical theory.

Originally posted by yampa
But as CIAgypsy has already said - it is a given here that we are accepting that the mind could possibly perturb reality. If we don't accept that postulate as possible then there is no discussion. The point is, what evidence do you have that is possible in this universe?

I have no evidence that it is possible other than anecdotal. This however does not cause me to discount it entirely (nor accept it entirely) as we still do not fully understand how waves and fields behave in our observable universe and thought (the actual organic brain-function) is a low-level electrical field/wave. It obviously interacts with the universe, but to what extent.

reply to post by yampa


Your answer did not make it clear to me what the danger is in holding such beliefs about the nature of reality.
You seem to be saying "it is dangerous because false." Ooookay, perhaps I am too pragmatic, but I was looking for exact ways one could hurt their body with such beliefs or something...?

So I'll just go guessing and brainstorming myself- perhaps a person who believed they could fly, if they just focused hard enough with their will, and they jumped off a building?

It could happen- there are sick minds out there that don't work properly. But they are very much in the minority.
For the most of us, our brains have a neat way of letting memes battle each other out. Ideas which are quickly beaten out by the observable world and physics tend to die out rather quickly.

The concepts of will influenced reality which tend to spread and reproduce are more complex and find ways to respect common laws of physics.

For example, the focus on one flying could result in a chain of events which results in you having a plane ticket and taking a flight somewhere.

(the explanations could vary, but an example woudl be the existence of a collective consciousness, through which messages can travel in web-or neuron-like paths to bring people and things together.)

Such ideas like that survive precisely because enough people have experiences which support that idea.

I tried an experiement with precisely this concept, not being a believer in it, but curious.
Approximately six months ago, I took a photo of a M class Mercedes and put it on my fridge, as something I want to have. This made me laugh along with the rest of the family- as if we could ever afford that, instead of my old Citroen! I kept it up for five months, then threw it away, deciding that was a silly experiment.

Guess what? We are buying one right now (exactly the same color as the image in fact). I am still reeling at this. A chain of events happened, that pushed us into a totally different financial situation, as well as someone we know who owns a garage and had this come to him to sell. (My husband is getting an Audi Q3, this is really crazy).

I cannot claim any factual evidence that my focus of will brought this about, no. But there is enough suggestive evidence for me to hold that concept as possible in my mind.

.... But besides this interpretation of will effecting the world of matter, this thread asked about the creation of Gods- which by definition would mean a creation on a different plane of reality than physical, therefore physics would not be applicable to this hypothesis.

reply to post by werewolf99

This thread has veered wildly off-track, but I encourage you to review the following article on chaos magic and the progression of power from sigil to servitor to egregore to godform:
www.chaosmatrix.org...

Once you have properly digested that article, check out this article about an anecdotal time sigil that has progressed to the point of self-awareness and seeks to become a godform:
www.chaosmatrix.org...

I find the second article interesting because it was published in 1999, and, since that time, more people have reported experiencing "time slips" (check out ATS articles for anecdotes and descriptions). While it may be merely coincidental, it is interesting to think that perhaps there is a time egregore who is fighting for dominance over traditional linear time structures, where awareness of fixed time would be replaced by perception of relative time by all casual observers in the event of a successful takeover...

In short, chaos magic seems to welcome the idea of both pre-existing godforms and those created through the aforementioned stages of power progression, or, that is to say it does not seem to discourage the idea that both could exist/co-exist/struggle for dominance, and that we, too, could exist as both potential creators and have potentially been created by someone or something else's thought-forms. This argument also seems to fit well within the context of the holographic universe and parallel universe argument- that creation is a giant pyramid scheme and that once we have been created and have reached self-awareness, our next objective would be to gain power and knowledge to the point that we could replicate/simulate creation such that we are percieved as godforms over our own created universe, until such time as our own creation becomes self-aware and capable of making its own decisions to the point that it, too, can create its own universe, ad infinitum. This argument would also adequately describe and explain 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. dimension "densities", where we can't percieve "reality" beyond the realm of our own three-dimensional physical universe. Were we a simulation, created to be observed or tinkered with, only our creators would be able to observe and interract with us beyond the scope of our pre-programmed three-dimensional reality. Come to think of it:

www.daviddarling.info...

This hypercube (four-dimensional cube) bears a striking resemblance to an old computer sitting in someone elses three-dimensional reality. Taken from the website, "If a cube is hung from one of its vertices and sliced horizontally through its center, the result is a hexagon. What if the same is done to a tesseract? The slice will yield a 3-dimensional object – but what kind? The answer: an octahedron." Obviously that is a gross simplification, but maybe our universe really is just the product of someone/thing else's sufficiently advanced game of Sims...

From everything I've read, Chaos does not seem to adhere to a limited view on these matters; what works for you is the correct answer. In short, you have the power to provide and create answers to the questions you are seeking and they will be correct for you.

reply to post by yampa


Yea Bluesma and preezy120 sort of stole my thunder in that i was going to say something similar to what both of them said, first off i'll reiterate what i said on page 1 and that is we are made in God's image (by my understanding) and God was a creator so yes we can create because we bare his likeness, i understand your worry about if this thesis turns out to be true it could be a horror story to a certain extent or if it turns out to be false then your following a false paradigm which can lead to a very big disappointment for the believers.....


My feeling is yes we can create even so with out magic like belief for instance, but i feel natural law in many avenues is God's way of making sure things don't get out of hand within this construct which i'm guessing is your worry...

Originally posted by yampa

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by yampa
Yet another incident on this forum of someone trying to sell the idea that our mind creates reality. This is a misleading and dangerous idea which should not be encouraged.

If one were to believe in a inifinite multiverse type reality where all possibilities can occur then this has actually happened.

That's great, but we, as humans here on earth right now, are not existing in a universe where that happens. We're living in a hard, physical reality which has deterministic laws - none of which we can perturb without direct physical interaction.

I'm betting you're getting the 'multiverse' thing from the same type of people who try to sell 'consciousness creates external reality' falsehood i.e fakers.

Consciousness creates the reality in your head, it does not create the reality that your body exists in.

Seen throught the rear-vision mirror of concretised reality...this 'claim', is moot and self-referential (and exhibiting blindness)...

Taken to its 'logical' conclusion...you have no plans/ideas to affect anything around you, or indeed, personally...these things are 'just happening' without your input, cerebral or otherwise...

The seed of creation is in thought, not the other way around...some people love to claim that they are spontaneous - an oxymoronic notion, to say the least...

Quote...
"Consciousness creates the reality in your head, it does not create the reality that your body exists in."
This sentence needs to be thought through (especially if it informs your opinion on such matters)

A99

Originally posted by yampa

But as CIAgypsy has already said - it is a given here that we are accepting that the mind could possibly perturb reality.

Of course the mind can perturb reality. I think you are falling into the trap that so many who don't practice Magick do, which is trying to separate the mundane from other Magickal acts. The simple act of separating them completely inhibits magickal action. Let me explain by an example of Magick through the eyes of a chaos magician...

A judge says "I now declare you man and wife." This is a piece of ritual which causes a change in the world - the state two people's lives have changed forever as a direct consequence of the judges incantation of the ritual. The reciting of the words have caused a tangible change in the world. This, according to chaos magicians, is a Magickal act. The judge's mind and enforcement of his will has perturbed reality.

As soon as we start differentiating between this type of magickal act and any other (levitating, for example), we are making ourselves believe that this type of act is somehow more difficult to achieve than the mundane. Such a thought completely inhibits the magickal manifestation of the action. To a chaos magician, all magick is equally mundane. Magick is part and parcel of everyday life. As with the judge, his will caused a change in the world, or a perturbation in reality, using your words. Ours is the same, and we can simply do whatever we will by simply accepting that all tasks are, in essence, mundane. It is this realization, and this realization alone, that makes chaos magick work.

Originally posted by Bluesma
So I'll just go guessing and brainstorming myself- perhaps a person who believed they could fly, if they just focused hard enough with their will, and they jumped off a building?

Dead serious here (no pun intended), but I firmly believe that my body is capable of flight. I'm also pragmatic enough to realize that I don't yet know how to do so.

reply to post by yampa

our mind creates reality, one must imagine what he see inside his brain.

I realise I am somewhat trolling here, since the OP stated axiomatically that chaos magic is true and I am outright disputing that. But I so object to the central philosophy of chaos magic that I feel it is worth disputing.

The 'gods making gods' part can be debated without using any chaos magic philosophy. The OP was being tangential initially to suggest that chaos magic has anything real to say about the origins of the universe. The OP was daydreaming about nothing, if you ask me.

Originally posted by MightyWizard
reply to post by yampa

 

our mind creates reality, one must imagine what he see inside his brain.

No, your brain creates your local, internal reality, for you, in your head. Your brain does not create complex phenomena out in the world without physical motion and deliberate physical action.

I don't think it's worth properly articulating why I believe the idea that 'the mind creates reality' is a poisonous, egotistical and seductive lie which has been used since the dawn of time to trick people into avoiding mindful pursuit of enlightenment; since we are living in a world where that meme is currently hugely popular (particularly in Western society). Many aren't going to get what I'm saying, because this 'anything goes' lie has been forced onto us over and over in order to assist in the runaway, shallow consumerism currently helping to ruin our world.

Perhaps it would be better to observe the philosophy of a belief system which has accepted 'hard reality'' as a truism for thousands of years. The teachings found in Buddhism are in direct opposition to the 'universally, anything goes / mind is all' style teachings put about by chaos magic and alike.

Reality in Buddhism
en.wikipedia.org...

Reality in Buddhism is called dharma (Sanskrit) or dhamma (Pali). This word, which is foundational to the conceptual frameworks of the Indian religions, refers in Buddhism to the system of natural laws which constitute the natural order of things. Dharma is therefore reality as-it-is (yatha-bhuta). The teaching of the Buddha constituting as it does a method by which people can come out of their condition of suffering (dukkha) involves developing an awareness of reality (see mindfulness). Buddhism thus seeks to address any disparity between a person's view of reality and the actual state of things. This is called developing Right or Correct View (Pali: samma ditthi). Seeing reality as-it-is is thus an essential prerequisite to mental health and well-being according to Buddha's teaching.

This "power" that lies behind nature and that keeps everything in balance became a natural forerunner to the idea of dharma. The idea of rta laid the cornerstone of dharma's implicit attribution to the "ultimate reality" of the surrounding universe, in classical Vedic Hinduism the following verse from the Rig-Veda is an example where rta is mentioned:

O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right path over all evils
—RV 10.133.6

Siddhārtha understood that suffering, in part, comes from not understanding true reality.

Understanding reality takes a lot of time and effort. Long term, invariant models of the complex structure of the universe need to be written into your head. And while you are spending your time reading books about chaos magic and inventing stories in your head, you are learning nothing about ultimate, universal reality. I postulate you are getting no closer to enlightenment either.

Originally posted by yampa
...the OP stated axiomatically that chaos magic is true and I am outright disputing that. But I so object to the central philosophy of chaos magic that I feel it is worth disputing.

Magick is bringing about a change in the world with conformity with one's will. Deliberately moving a cup from one place to another could be considered an act of magick.

Where do you draw the line? At what point does it become magick in your eyes? Moving the cup with one hand? With one finger? With a broken nail from one's finger? With a hair? With one's breath? With photons from one's eyes? With electromagnetic waves from ones brain? By thoughts alone?

The definition of magick in your eyes is the point at which something cannot be done, in your experience. By your definition, magick can never exist, because you have defined it as the point at which something cannot be done.

Think about it...

As I have mentioned before, as soon as you separate any act from the mundane, it means that you believe it cannot be done, and therefore you are right.

Chaos magicians do not define a point at which something becomes "magick". All things are equally possible. Every act is equally mundane. And when you believe this, then magick exists. If you don't, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by yampa
...the OP stated axiomatically that chaos magic is true and I am outright disputing that. But I so object to the central philosophy of chaos magic that I feel it is worth disputing.

Magick is bringing about a change in the world with conformity with one's will. Deliberately moving a cup from one place to another could be considered an act of magick.

Where do you draw the line? At what point does it become magick in your eyes? Moving the cup with one hand? With one finger? With a broken nail from one's finger? With a hair? With one's breath? With photons from one's eyes? With electromagnetic waves from ones brain? By thoughts alone?

The definition of magick in your eyes is the point at which something cannot be done, in your experience. By your definition, magick can never exist, because you have defined it as the point at which something cannot be done.

Think about it...

I draw the line at photons, currently. If you aren't at least directing emitted photons from your body, you aren't doing anything which perturbs the world. I see no reason to utilise anything else to describe the current universe and the construction of the mind - the photon works as a perfectly acceptable scientific base at this time and it has a decent mystical base in many intelligently thought-out human religions and belief systems.

I haven't said anything about magic generally, I haven't speculated anything about the possibility of it existing - I'm talking about the philosophy used to support the OPs theory. You are avoiding my points about the shallowness of the OPs post by pretending my point is simply 'magic doesn't exist'.

Originally posted by Saurus
As I have mentioned before, as soon as you separate any act from the mundane, it means that you believe it cannot be done, and therefore you are right.

Chaos magicians do not define a point at which something becomes "magick". All things are equally possible. Every act is equally mundane. And when you believe this, then magick exists. If you don't, it doesn't.

edit on 28/3/2013 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

I'll be interested see how much suffering you manage to remove from your own or anyone else's life by adhering to the wisdom contained in those sentiments.

Originally posted by yampa

I'll be interested see how much suffering you manage to remove from your own or anyone else's life by adhering to the wisdom contained in those sentiments.

If we repeat an action, eventually it becomes a habit. It we practice acts of kindness every day, these eventually become part and parcel of who we are.

Acts of charity and kindness which once required us to make an effort, eventually become part of our very makeup, and then those acts no longer require an effort, but simply become mundane.

Then, those acts of kindness which later require a special effort are of a much greater magnitude that the first ones, which have now become mundane. Eventually, those 'great effort acts' also become mundane, because they have become a habit. And so on, and so on...

Ultimately, there is no limit as to the positive change one can make in the world.

This is actually a good example to demonstrate the magickal concept I was trying to explain.

Originally posted by yampa
No, your brain creates your local, internal reality, for you, in your head. Your brain does not create complex phenomena out in the world without physical motion and deliberate physical action.

I don't think it's worth properly articulating why I believe the idea that 'the mind creates reality' is a poisonous, egotistical and seductive lie which has been used since the dawn of time to trick people into avoiding mindful pursuit of enlightenment; since we are living in a world where that meme is currently hugely popular (particularly in Western society). Many aren't going to get what I'm saying, because this 'anything goes' lie has been forced onto us over and over in order to assist in the runaway, shallow consumerism currently helping to ruin our world.

If a dream is as vivid and real as it is in the physical world to the extent that one cannot tell whether it was a dream or whether it was 'real' in the physical world, does that make the experience less real?

Our existence is made up of different realities or realms - there's the one in our mind which in which we live alone - it is shared with no-one. There's the one that we share with others, where we have common rules (where a rule might be to preclude levitation, for instance) so that we can understand each others' realities, and relate to everyone else in the world's reality (this is the one that you suggest is the only 'real' reality, I think). Then there is the one in which our physical lives is merely a passing instant. And there are others.

You have chosen to accept only one (perhaps two, depending on your religion or absence thereof) as 'real'. Why do you make this distinction? A magician accepts the different realms, and merges them into one.

I know my place in the world, and there are experiences which I have had in altered states of consciousness which are as real in every respect as in the physical world. To me, I know what it feels like to levitate - in my altered state of consciousness, it was as real as any other experience I may have every day. Perhaps my conscience does not allow this act to cross over into the physical realm, because it might disturb or upset others by breaking the rules of the shared reality. That does not matter, and does not make the experience of levitating any less real.

I just see the whole world differently to you - that's why we don't agree on this.

reply to post by yampa


Imagination comes out of image, do the math ...

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by yampa

I'll be interested see how much suffering you manage to remove from your own or anyone else's life by adhering to the wisdom contained in those sentiments.

If we repeat an action, eventually it becomes a habit. It we practice acts of kindness every day, these eventually become part and parcel of who we are.

Acts of charity and kindness which once required us to make an effort, eventually become part of our very makeup, and then those acts no longer require an effort, but simply become mundane.

Then, those acts of kindness which later require a special effort are of a much greater magnitude that the first ones, which have now become mundane. Eventually, those 'great effort acts' also become mundane, because they have become a habit. And so on, and so on...

Ultimately, there is no limit as to the positive change one can make in the world.

This is actually a good example to demonstrate the magickal concept I was trying to explain.

This is different to the OPs point (and seems a peculiar understanding of human altruism). He wasn't talking about the knock-on effect of human interactions, he was talking about man manifesting gods with their minds alone. He was essentially implying the mind is inseparable from an omnipotent god (as long as you say the right kind of mind-spells). That kind of thinking can be a dangerous delusion, and it will never reduce suffering.