Does chaos magic suggest that Gods/God does not exist, that we created them, or that we are actually

If people believe in chaos magic: we have to take this as an assumed principle which I admit may not be the case: then belief can create effects and create things. We could then conclude that many of the the inge we observe mystical and otherwise is created through belief. So many of these things are created like this.In fact I would say that if this were the case then most things living or appearing in anyway exist because of belief. But if this is the case then it is most likely that we are on of these things. Is it not likely that some of the mystical things which we think we created are actually our creators and that we existed first as their folk tales: becoming real through their belief?

Is it not therefore true instead of placing us in the centre of creating of many things like God's etc. That we are simply less central and among the mass of created? Where as chaos magic seems to imply a centralness and importance we do not have. We therefore either exist in a world of no Gods and simply powerful and less powerful beings: or a polythesistic society with many Gods.

Is the central assumnption that most take from it that we are special as humans completely false?

reply to post by werewolf99


I believe in Aliens and Angels and have never seen them. Once upon a time I prayed to see ghosts..... notta.... nothing.

So... if you are asking if a belief manifests into material (not sure if thats what your implying) I would say no, not in my case.

Perhaps the Gods exist in the first place but draw their power from belief and prayer. The belief and prayers affect the God so that over time He becomes more like us. If we pray for love and long life then God becomes a God of love and long life. If all our prayers are about money or possessions the God becomes the God of material wealth.

This neatly explains how the Gods / God evolve since we are the catalyst of the changes.

Perhaps when belief falters and people switch to a new God, the old ones wither and cease to exist.

Perhaps if we all started to believe in fairies they would return to us.

So to make me very happy, would everyone please start praying to the wise and powerful Dragons.

Thanks

P

Consider the following experiment:
gizmodo.com...

A test group was give a lab coat, and on average did twice as well on their task than those not wearing the coat or those who were told it was an artist's frock.

The lab coat on it's own has no power. The influence the lab coat had in that experiment came from the meaning and associations the individuals assigned to that coat as a result of cultural influence. A lab coat is associated with science, keen observations and such.

Now consider almost all gods, saints, angels and demons have similar associations. There is a god of war, fertility gods, gods for crops, ect. There is a deity for every occasion. Invoking a deity will have the exact same influence the lab coat did, allowing access to it's varied associations.

With both the lab coat and the gods, their meaning is created and cemented by the individual, so different people can have different meanings for the same things. This means we are all god, and we create our own rules.

reply to post by werewolf99


It's all perceptual based in the end i would suppose however my own theory is sort of a cross of what you ask i do think we can create with imagination (no magic even needed) but we are in God's likeness and because he is the creator he gave us the ability to create, that's my take on it anyhow...

reply to post by werewolf99
"Belief and desire are the great duality which engender all illusions that entangle the senses and prevent free will."

Austin Osman Spare

Well Dr. Strange said there is no such thing as Chaos Magic...


...which is something the Avengers must have heavily believed in, because they were left with a loss for words.

If we're told there is no such thing as chaos magic and we believe it, then even if it did exist it wouldn't, because we would be simultaneously using an destroying it at the same time.

There is no such thing as chaos magic.

- Lee

reply to post by MamaJ


I said you have to assume in chaos magic. Also I did not say you personally would see them. But I take your point this is largely a philosophoical discussion.

A lot of people have missed the point. I do not say chaos magic exists. I ask that if you make this assumption: and yes it is an assumption.Please do not make the obvious joke about ass .... about assumption.But if you do then this style of magic has placed people at it's centre. When in actual fact if you examine it it places us as in a much less central position.

It generally makes us special. Whereas if you think it through, it does not make us special at all Is it not interesting that beliefs that are supposed to make us special, end up again make us less important and again come to a place similar in level of unimportance that christianity and other religions too. Instead of being mini Gods we become no more powerful than absolutely anything else: probably created by them.

Chaos theory or not ( I say that because not all are familiar with chaos magic etc ) I feel this is important to mention:

The Philip Experiment

The members of the experiment proposed an idea... by using extreme and prolonged concentration, they could create their ghost through a collective thought form: Non-physical entities which exist in either the mental or astral plane. In order to create this ghost and make it as 'real' as possible, it needed a life story; a background in which the ghost could 'relate' to.

They named the ghost they were attempting to bring into focus "Philip Aylesford" and created a tragic story, explaining to the fullest and in great detail, his life, and the few actions that lead to his tragic death.

Basically they met constantly and developed amongst themselves an entire personality, life story and full concept of the person/ghost they named philip. Down to even the most minute details. The goal was to see if they could actualy create a person.

Within a few weeks, Philip made contact. Although he did not manifest in spiritual form, appearing as an apparition or ghost, he did make contact through a brief rap on the group's table. "Philip" answered questions that were consistent with his fictitious history, but was unable to provide any information beyond that which the group had conceived. However, "Philip" did give other historically accurate information about real events and people. The Owen group theorized that this latter information came from their own collective unconsciousness.

I feel this experiment and it's outcome is worth mentioning here. It either proves chaos magic to be founded in truth, or perhaps that chaos magic is just one method of reality - if you truely disbelieve in chaos magic then your conciousness will essentially disable it from being real.. In a sense. But the fact still remains that there is good evidence in the conciousness constructing reality so even if chaos magic material is known/mentioned, the idea that we mass harness our collective conciousness unknowingly to create actual 'gods' is not farfetched at all.

In fact I would say our mass harvested collective conciousness, whether you believe in gods or not, feeds the alchemical archetypes and makes them real - not as physical entities but archetypes of this reality. Perhaps the keyword is structure, these archetypes produce a myraid of colors and tools to build reality with, ground to stand on etc.

I would conclude with the whole "merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream".. To conclude we created the archetypes themselves would imply a significant amount of power over reality, to which a person would go back in time before that and think "what structure of reality came before that?" Eventually I think it boils down to order coming from chaos..

reply to post by werewolf99


My point was I find it hard to assume such because I am drawn to a belief instead of drawing a belief unto myself. Or..... so it seems.

Chaos magic seems personal and based on experience, does it not? It does to me. It's a philosophy that would in fact be personal.

Is it possible each person may "create" reality by their interaction and participation in it? Possibly. I ponder such.

I do think there is a "strange attractor". This seems evident.

We live in a world of uncertainty. Existence can not be completely described by science or religion so we ponder....... and imagine...... and out of the inspiration of imagination comes belief.

Personally though I have found that I am actually drawn to a belief through the arts whether it be from literature, song, art and even conversation. I could actually go as far to say that words and images are powerful, thus the "magic" (if I assumed such) is in a word.

Maybe I am practicing the magic without knowing it, when there is no bias present and gnosis is presently strong and again, not even know it. Thats possible.

I'm under the impression I am in tune with the Universe and nature thereof. I always keep "possibilities" open, therefor never really having that ultimate belief, but a belief non the less that I may possibly be a part of a whole.

Chaos Mathematics shows what seems random is in fact chaotic and has a higher "order" that can be perceived only from a great enough perspective. Chaos gives rise to reality itself.

In the highest, it rises to order.

Anything is possible.

reply to post by werewolf99


Well, I think it suggests that the archetypes of the collective unconscious are formless in-and-of-themselves. They can take whatever form is compatible with our expectations.

And that any concepts or ideas or theories that we might believe in have to be left behind in order to enter the cloud of unknowing.

I do think that people central assumption is that we create. But are not created. If the myriad of entities are created by another then likely as not so are we. Maybe the fae or leprechauns were actually dreamed us up in some kind of folk delusion? This is why they look like us.

Of course this is just supposition. So the question is :does this lead top us concluding we are special at all?

In order for chaos magick to make sense in the context of your question, you have to accept the premise that the universe is actually a multi-verse and known laws of physics are limited to mundane human knowledge.

One aspect of the multi-verse is the concept of 4 spiritual worlds -

Atzilut (Emanation)
Briah (Creation)
Yetzirah (Formation)
Assiah (Action)

Chaos magick utilizes Briah (to some degree) and Yetzirah to create a formation which then manifests in Assiah. Our physical world resides in Assiah. Both Briah & Yetzirah have connection to your unconscious self and your conscious self.

However, the ability to interact with other spiritual levels and seemingly "create magick" does not invalidate or undermine belief in a Divine being (God). While I am sure any atheist will argue, it stands to reason that the world was created, with all its intricacies, depth, and repetitive meaningful patterns, by an intelligent being and not the outcome of natural selection.

There are for me two main aspects of magic; the parapsychological and the psychological. In enchantment and divination I believe that the magician is attempting to interact with nature via non-material causality. He is basically exchanging information with his environment without using his physical faculties. Austin Osman Spare precisely identified the mental manoeuvres necessary to allow this to occur. The manoeurvres are startlingly simple and once you have understood them you can invent an unlimited number of spells and forms of divination. The manoeuvres are sacred but the forms of their expression are arbitrary; you can use anything at random.

Bohr and Spare are for me Saints of the Church of Chaos.

...when a magician interacts with those apparently sentient sources of knowledge, inspiration and parapsychological ability that used to be called spirits, gods, demons and elementals, he is tapping into the extraordinary resources that each of us already contains. When activated they may also receive some input via non-material causality from outside. Yet since we all contain such a rich multitude within our own unconscious or subconscious and can also receive congruent information from the collective unconsciousness, as it were, then the possibilities are practically limitless. Given the correct techniques one can invoke or evoke anything, even things which did not exist before one thought of calling them. This may sound like complete
Chaos, and I have to report that my own researches confirm that it is!

Chaos Magic for me means a handful of basic techniques which must be adhered to strictly to get results, but beyond that it offers a freedom of expression and intent undreamt of in all previous forms of magic.

Ibid, pp. 12-3.

________________________________________________________ END


Liber Ate Information.

Sr. Ex LVX 963

The thing it seems to me that human will is at least powerful as belief. It therefore would make sense that any strong enough human though process could cause the same effect. After all the belief in the evil eye: that a person can cause harm to another usually children by a prolonged look. Was usually said to be the result of envy together with a prolonged gaze; was usually said to be accidental. I also think that to some extent it is important to encode the information somehow so that people can build a technique for control.

Perhaps the real purpose for religion is to burn off the exess power to give people control. The thing is I have seen people who seem to attract bad luck, and others good. Life where luck is concerned seems to be a world of polar opposites. I wonder if the is the result of accidental magic.Yes people who look for opportunities, etc will always eventually find them. Bad things do happen, and randomness seems to occur. But some people attract bad luck, some good.

Also chaos magic or many aspects of the occult do not require any belief in God. I was taught occult as set of tools: traditional witchcraft. It was not a religion. Although a belief in God was part of the persons beliefs. The power was seen as natural and did not rely upon any deity. If anything it deified the person, giving them powers beyond many. It seems to me more like playing cricket or boxing than going to church. In fact many modern occult organisations eschew many of these ideas, also chaos magic to a degree because they want a religion not a power. Not an ability. It is the difference between seeing it as a way of people expanding their potential.Or a system of veneration. Infact it if the fact that chaos magic can be so functional or not that worries some organisations. More than fact that it can be pared down. Traditional witchcraft as taught to me was not a religion, it was a way of doing things. It could be done in little time. Did not require doing unless you wanted to as you were not worshipping. It was not ceremonial it was simple. An extra set of tools to use.In this way chaos magic has much in common with traditional witchcraft. The approach for doing a spell was different. But it's purpose was the same; a tool set.

After all a person does not need to just use magic to get things. So why wouldn't a person want to use another tool which can help them fulfill their aims? I think that the reason it has proved so successful with people generally and less so with occult organisations like druid orders, is because of the fact that it resembles folk magic. This makes sense as some aspects come from other things. Like the idea of a verbal sigil that is chanted: chanting is very much a part of meditation as a form of spellcasting. The way of making a ;ictographic sigil is the same. The evil eye symbol: which was used to protect against the evil eye.. What could be more similar: put the evil eye symbol next to a pictoghraphic sigil and the look quite similar. These were just visual ways of encoding information.

reply to post by werewolf99


I once saw two energy beings... litteraly!
Believe...

It is this possibility that has kept me on the fence with the question of Theism.

I cannot fathom the concept of a supreme entity, with a personality, preferences, goals, etc. from which all was created. It is too small. Perhaps an "energy" of some sort, but not entity, because it does not make sense.

BUT, if consciousness creates, (which I intuitively suspect it does) then many peole believing the same thing may make it true- religion could be a way of creating a God, and a Heaven (and a Hell ?)

So there could be Gods, could be many. I don't know. All those people projecting their power upon the same concept for years and years- that sounds plenty powerful to me..

Originally posted by werewolf99
Also chaos magic or many aspects of the occult do not require any belief in God. I was taught occult as set of tools: traditional witchcraft. It was not a religion. Although a belief in God was part of the persons beliefs. The power was seen as natural and did not rely upon any deity.

This is true... Because it is a use of a natural process that occurs through use of the environment around you. Belief in any God or deity is irrelevant to making your will happen through magickal formation. That being said, there is ALWAYS a consequence to actions and intent. Magick is a tool. But you will be held accountable to how you use it.

Originally posted by werewolf99
If people believe in chaos magic: we have to take this as an assumed principle which I admit may not be the case: then belief can create effects and create things. We could then conclude that many of the the inge we observe mystical and otherwise is created through belief. So many of these things are created like this.In fact I would say that if this were the case then most things living or appearing in anyway exist because of belief. But if this is the case then it is most likely that we are on of these things. Is it not likely that some of the mystical things which we think we created are actually our creators and that we existed first as their folk tales: becoming real through their belief?

Is it not therefore true instead of placing us in the centre of creating of many things like God's etc. That we are simply less central and among the mass of created? Where as chaos magic seems to imply a centralness and importance we do not have. We therefore either exist in a world of no Gods and simply powerful and less powerful beings: or a polythesistic society with many Gods.

Is the central assumnption that most take from it that we are special as humans completely false?

Yet another incident on this forum of someone trying to sell the idea that our mind creates reality. This is a misleading and dangerous idea which should not be encouraged.

Your brain creates your reality for you. Because your brain is a biological computer built to map and create a model of the world. But your brain never actually creates physical reality (through belief or anything else) and reality will prove you wrong over and over if you try to act otherwise.

Originally posted by yampa
Yet another incident on this forum of someone trying to sell the idea that our mind creates reality. This is a misleading and dangerous idea which should not be encouraged.

If one were to believe in a inifinite multiverse type reality where all possibilities can occur then this has actually happened.