Toxic Masculinity

Well, I was speaking from a UK perspective. My high school was loaded with army brats and while it was rough in some ways, there was never the kind of misogyny that the op suggests.
Maybe it's different in a Garrison town where most of the men are in married quarters. You only tend to get the older, professional soldiers moving to Hereford so that could explain some of it.

recent history has shown time and time again that as a species we are slowly but steadily devolving back into savages, the only question is, why is this happening, what is causing this de-evolution?

I would argue the issue isn't "toxic masculinity" but a loss of human respect in general.

Masculinity gets blamed for everything these days. Maybe modern feminists should take a look at the immasculation of the American male for once. Some of them have, and are often attacked by other feminists.

Masculinity is made-up. Different places have different made up rules for being "manly" and "ladylike".
It is disgusting to beat someone for expressing a natural human emotion such as crying.
It is a NATURAL HUMAN emotion, not manly OR ladylike - just HUMAN.

And what is this about being "gay" not being manly? Gay just means one man is attracted to another, have nothing to do with whether or not they actually ACT manly (by whatever standard those are...)

reply to post by arpgme


I think you're confusing masculinity with sexuality to a degree. Not all gay men are stereotypical, ,gay types.
Masculinity isn't even just about physical toughness. Though it plays a part. It's about psychological toughness and, as such, precludes bursting into tears at the first opportunity.
I shed a tear when my kids were born, when my grandfather died, when Liverpool won the European Cup in 2005 and almost every time I watch the dam busters.
In some ways this may be seen as proof that I'm an emotional cripple, though seen through the lens of my upbringing, I'm a man just like the other men in my family.

Anyway, I firmly believe that these rapists and other idiots lack the masculine qualities of sticking to the right path no matter what. They either act like toddlers who demand their needs be met instantly or lack the backbone to put a stop to outrageous behaviour by their mates when they witness such.

reply to post by FyreByrd

Please read the article - it's on video - and the defence "she never said no". Because she was mostly unconscious - that makes it okay??????

I realize that now after reading various articles on the case.

I wasn't condoning their actions, I was merely being careful with my words, because, it didn't appear that they had actually been convicted yet.

Edit: It seems a verdict has been reached. Guilty.

News Story

I would just like to add that the OP link is talking about Toxic Masculinity - That's not an attack on men and masculinity altogether but rather like saying "Its an extreme nazi style of masculinity, that lead's boys to believe that by using their masculine strength's/qualities that they are crossing the threshold to "being a man" When in reality, they are simply infringing on other people's lives.

Call me out if im wrong but i dont think having to be extremely competitive with the other 7 billion souls on this earth is healthy. I think it creates more chaos and problems. But being competitive is a considered a "Masculine" trait.

You have to also remember, if you had two boxes, one labled "Masculinity" and the other "Feminity" You wouldn't be able to split even a small population right down the middle into either of the boxes, that's why i feel that gender roles should no longer be implied by society. They're dangerous.

I'd like to clear up a few things before commenting on the article:

-The OP and the article are clearly differentiating toxic masculinity from masculinity.
-They are not anywhere stating that masculinity is a bad thing.
-They are suggesting we teach true masculinity to men, not feminizing masculinity.
-They are asserting that the culture and behavior of the men in the Steubenville case is toxic masculinity; not masculinity.

Both toxic masculinity and masculinity have been around since men have been around, the former is horrendous but the latter is wonderful. Toxic masculinity prevalence seems to ebb and flow. We are currently in a period of time when womens rights are under attack... again, we are also in a fragile economy, times are very hard, people are scared so that seems to be the correlation with this current flow.

Men, especially young men, are scared... many have had no dads around or positive male role models which isn't to say that's a guarantee but that demographic is even more vulnerable. We aren't teaching our boys how to be good men, how to use their strengths to be happy caring individuals.

We only tell them hitting people etc... is bad, don't do it. We don't tell them why they have those urges, how they can channel that drive in positive ways and we damn sure don't teach them about women and what makes us tick, why we do what we do, how we are different but equal how our strengths and weaknesses can compliment and offset each others.

To put it on a grandiose scale, we are imbalanced, under the pendulum effect. Women were repressed and so the pendulum was swung too hard one way, we fought back and under the false impression that masculinity was to blame, demonized it made men feel ashamed just for being men and the pendulum swung back too hard the other way to the point they are trying again to dominate us.Music, movies, video games, politics... all reflect where the pendulum is. The only way to free ourselves from it is to value both masculinity and femininity and to teach that both are equal and deserving of love, respect, acknowledgement and appreciation.

Some of the responsibility has to be clearly laid on the women finding themselves in these types of situations. While not taking any blame away from the boys involved, the current style of 'celebration' should be faulted as well.

I cannot stop my daughter from interacting and attending social events such as what takes place, that said, she will be taught to be responsible for not landing herself in the same situation as the girl in this case. How can we teach our daughters to avoid things like this without teaching them to own the consequences of the predicaments that they get into?

Men have had sex with overly inebriated women since the dawn of beer. Part of the whole point of drinking with women has been to get women to lose inhibitions enough to give in to sexual advances. It happens all the time even between friends or married couples. A little alcohol goes a long way towards getting her in the mood. We live in a stressful world. Alcohol has and will remain to be just the lubrication of choice when it comes to sex. I am not condoning these boys actions in the least, but would like to meantion that introducing alcohol into a celebration where sexual tensions are high ~'college parties' etc. is playing with fire.

If you don't want things like this to happen to your children, then teach them to be responsible for themselves in these types of situations. Make them aware that what can happen when they lose control in a seemingly innocent situation can have far reaching consequences for others as well as themselves. Perhaps we should consider that the sexual outcomes of drinking parties should be put up in the same shelf as driving drunk and looked at as being just as dangerous an outcome. How many young women have found themselves victim at these types of events but yet have never mentioned it to anyone because they didn't want the drama. Its a hard lesson to learn, I'm sure.

reply to post by Quauhtli


I know you're not being a jerk here so please don't take my reply as me interpreting you that way. All teenagers/young adults should be taught not to drink to the point of blacking out or passing out, obviously... that said 99.9% of the time a boy/man can surrender himself to drink and not get assaulted. As much as we should be teaching kids not to ever become that vulnerable in places where they don't know everyone very well, we should be teaching them not to be violent against those that do become that vulnerable. We should also be teaching that consent can only be given by someone who is in possession of their brain and says yes. Not saying no, is not the same as saying yes.

pandemic of rape

I stopped right there.

Rape survivor.

Okay, now that's out of the way.

My father is a very masculine man, but also as loving and gentle when needs be. My mother is a sweet and kind woman, but also fiercely protective when needs be.

My brother and I were raised to be considerate of others, yet also to protect ourselves and those weaker than us (younger children, the handicapped, etc).

My brother was taught to never hurt a woman "No matter how mad she makes you, or how much she might deserve it." This was from my dad.

I was taught to never hurt a man, No matter how angry he makes you, or how much you might think he deserves it." That was from my mom.

It's not about playing gender games, but about learning to respect others.

Rapists OF BOTH SEXES (yes, women rape) do not respect the people they hurt. That's what it boils down to.

If we teach our children that people, regardless of religion, sex, creed, or nationality, deserve our respect.....this world could be a better place.

reply to post by Kali74


If we ever decide that we want to drag ourselves out of this reality, then we are going to have to teach ourselves as well as our children how to keep each other in check. We have to learn how to police each other as well as our businesses and politicians. In the past we had no choice, now in many cases it is easier to close our eyes and take no responsibility for others actions.

I was not trying to be an ass in my post, I just wanted to point out that we are all responsible for the actions of our neighbors and other people's actions. It is our responsibility to check our neighbors and their children if we want ours to live in a somewhat safe environment. We cannot rely solely on the law enforcement and judicial system to do it for us. It needs to become the cool thing to do.

In years gone by it was this way. Now not so much.

reply to post by Kali74

To put it on a grandiose scale, we are imbalanced, under the pendulum effect. Women were repressed and so the pendulum was swung too hard one way, we fought back and under the false impression that masculinity was to blame, demonized it made men feel ashamed just for being men and the pendulum swung back too hard the other way to the point they are trying again to dominate us.Music, movies, video games, politics... all reflect where the pendulum is. The only way to free ourselves from it is to value both masculinity and femininity and to teach that both are equal and deserving of love, respect, acknowledgement and appreciation.

Very well said.

I'd applaud you if I could.

reply to post by HIWATT


Why? What do you consider a pandemic? A pandemic is something (usually disease) that occurs worldwide or over a very wide area. Doesn't rape occur worldwide? In the US someone is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes, 1:6 women are raped, approx. 97,000 men/year are raped.

reply to post by FyreByrd

"Masculinity" has nothing to do with rape, crimes or any other violent behavior.

Take it from the source, I'm as masculine as a man can get. Just last week, my masculinity meter overloaded and exploded.

For anyone to suggest that this was an act as a result of being "too much of a man", has clear bias and hate issues towards men in general.

I would guess that the author is gay, lesbian or some kind of over the top feminist.

Please dont spread garbage like this or help to give it any credibility.

This thread continues to disgust.

reply to post by gladtobehere


I'll agree but only in the fact that masculinity is based in the idea of protection. Testosterone is for sure the element which creates these situations.

reply to post by Quauhtli

What situations?

reply to post by SprocketUK

Originally posted by SprocketUK
reply to post by arpgme

 

I think you're confusing masculinity with sexuality to a degree. Not all gay men are stereotypical, ,gay types.

I specifically separated the two and I even said that it's possible for a gay guy to be masculine (by our standards anyway)...

Originally posted by SprocketUK
Anyway, I firmly believe that these rapists and other idiots lack the masculine qualities of sticking to the right path no matter what.

Not raping people isn't a "masculine" quality. It is a human quality of Compassion understanding the suffering it brings to others and therefore not doing it.