The Great Tribulation to begin sometime shortly after March 20th 2013?

Originally posted by cheebie23
reply to post by cheebie23

 

The way the "Left Behind" series goes is how it is laid out in the Book of Revelation. The Rapture happens before anything else does.

That is not correct. The rapture happens after the tribulation of those days.

Nowhere in Scripture does it teach the "Left Behind" second chance for salvation rapture doctrine.

Originally posted by cheebie23

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by cheebie23

 

Some one forgot that this is Jesus Christs program . He laid it out in Matthew 24 . And then you quote 1st Thessolonians but 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 never registers .

If your scared say your scared , but that does not change the facts that the Pretrib package has no sequence of events to time the scriptures given .
On the other hand Matthew 24 and 2nd Thess.chapter 2 Rev 7 and 14 does have sequential order of events to give a time factor .
I hope these people haven't based their commitment to follow Jesus on a false guarantee to get out of having to deny the Mark of the Beast via the Rapture . Jesus never said anything about you not having to suffer some tribulation. He did say he that endureth unto the end , the same shall be saved .

You are completely misunderstanding me. The way the "Left Behind" series goes is how it is laid out in the Book of Revelation. The Rapture happens before anything else does. Do you not believe in the the Book of Revelation? I was just asking for your opinion but I can barely undertand what you are saying back...

And I in no way follow Jesus because of what a book says. I actually don't fully believe in the Bible. I have had my own experiences and relationship with Him.. that is all i need to know.

Nowhere in revelation does it state that the rapture happens before the tribulation. The book of revelation clearly indicates that the rapture occurs after the tribulation but before the wrath of God.

The first five seals that are opened represent the Great tribulation, Christians will be persecuted and slain under antichrist rule. The souls of those beheaded for their faith in Christ cry out from under the altar before they appear amongst the great multitude wearing white robes in heaven. After this scene we see God pour his wrath out upon the wicked.

The tribulation and the wrath of God are two seperate events.

Sequence of events:

Great tribulation ---> Rapture (Jesus destroys the antichrist with the breath of his coming) ---> Wrath of God ---> 1000 year reign of Christ on earth in the new Jerusalem ---> Satan released to deceive the nations once more ---> Battle of Amageddon ---> Satan is thrown into the Lake of fire where the antichrist & false prophet are ---> A new Heaven & a new Earth

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob

Originally posted by cheebie23

Originally posted by SimonPeter

Nowhere in revelation does it state that the rapture happens before the tribulation. The book of revelation clearly indicates that the rapture occurs after the tribulation but before the wrath of God.

The first five seals that are opened represent the Great tribulation, Christians will be persecuted and slain under antichrist rule. The souls of those beheaded for their faith in Christ cry out from under the altar before they appear amongst the great multitude wearing white robes in heaven. After this scene we see God pour his wrath out upon the wicked.

The tribulation and the wrath of God are two seperate events.

Sequence of events:

Great tribulation ---> Rapture (Jesus destroys the antichrist with the breath of his coming) ---> Wrath of God ---> 1000 year reign of Christ on earth in the new Jerusalem ---> Satan released to deceive the nations once more ---> Battle of Amageddon ---> Satan is thrown into the Lake of fire where the antichrist & false prophet are ---> A new Heaven & a new Earth

Thank you for that explanation.

I thought it went: Rapture (calling of His true followers home) --> causing the "soldiers" (people who are left & turn to God) to fight during the Tribulations (while helping turn more people during the 7? years) --> than the wrath of God --> Battle of Armageddon --> Satan thrown into the Lake of fire with the antichrist & false prophet --> 1000 year reign on Earth --> Satan is released again

edit on 3/18/2013 by cheebie23 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by truejew


I disagree with your statement that the rapture occurs after the Tribulation for several reasons...

1) Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God... so how do you explain them going through the Great Tribulation which is, essentially, God pouring out his wrath on a Christ-rejecting world?

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up..." 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11

In Revelation 2 & 3 (the Lord's letters to the churches), we are repeatedly told "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches". In the letter to the church of Philadelphia, specifically... "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth." Rev. 3:10

2) And why would Christians be raptured - caught up in the air with The Lord - after the Tribulation only to immediately turn around and come back down with Him, since it will be time for His second coming at the end of the Tribulation?

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we are urged us to be watchful, not ignorant, and not to grieve like those who have no hope. In fact, 1 Thes. 4:16-17 states "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..."

Revelation is the blueprint for the end. It pictures John being "taken up" prior to the judgment seals being opened. It also describes a voice like a trumpet. Angels may blow trumpets, but no other being has this trumpet-type voice but God himself.

"...There before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.' At once I was in the Spirit..." Revelation 4:1-2.

It then goes on to describe the Lord opening up the judgments: 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 plagues, 7 bowls. And after this, He returns with his army (the saints).

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." Rev. 19:14

There are other areas that don't match up with a post-Tribulation view, but I think these are a few of the stronger points that reveal a conflict.

Originally posted by packinmomma
reply to post by truejew

 

I disagree with your statement that the rapture occurs after the Tribulation for several reasons...

1) Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God... so how do you explain them going through the Great Tribulation which is, essentially, God pouring out his wrath on a Christ-rejecting world?

Simple answer: The Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God are two entirely seperate events.

The Great Tribulation occurs before the rapture and the Wrath of God occurs after the rapture.

Christians must endure the Great Tribulation (persecution of the saints under antichrist rule) and at some point Jesus cuts those days short by rescuing us (gathering us up into the clouds to be with him). If Jesus were not to cut the Tribulation short by gathering his elect then no flesh would be saved (we would all be ressurected from the dead). The scriptures clearly teach that the dead are raised first and then those that remain are caught up with Christ.


I have posted this video in the thread already but it is absolutely essential viewing for all christians regarding the post trib, pre wrath view of the rapture.

There is going to be no wrath.

Only an end of the world party with an after dinner orgy!

That's right! You heard it here first. No wrath! After dinner orgy!

Originally posted by packinmomma
reply to post by truejew

 

1) Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God...

I did not say we are. Noah was on earth when the wrath of God came, but he was protected by God. So were the Hebrews during the plagues against Egypt.

Originally posted by packinmomma

2) And why would Christians be raptured - caught up in the air with The Lord - after the Tribulation only to immediately turn around and come back down with Him, since it will be time for His second coming at the end of the Tribulation?

Why would Jesus come part way only to turn around and go back? We are told that Jesus will return again, not again and again.

Plus, your doctrine creates an opportunity for the unsaved to receive a second chance. The five unwise virgins never received that second chance.

You are coming up with things that you view as conflicts, which really are not, while ignoring that Scripture says after the tribulation of those days.

Originally posted by cheebie23
This is exactly how I understand it. The Rapture is the beginning, after that there is no denying that He will be making an appearance in a few years. I think people just say it is not real so they can say that this is the “end of times”.

Well, no doubt, a lot make the claim that it isn't true, so they can use fear to control people. I have talked to people that were convinced it wasn't real, and who were living in fear, of what they might do, what might happen to them, etc. All because some church leader told them that the Bible wasn't correct, and convinced them that they couldn't understand it.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by packinmomma
reply to post by truejew

 

1) Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God...

I did not say we are. Noah was on earth when the wrath of God came, but he was protected by God. So were the Hebrews during the plagues against Egypt.

Originally posted by packinmomma

2) And why would Christians be raptured - caught up in the air with The Lord - after the Tribulation only to immediately turn around and come back down with Him, since it will be time for His second coming at the end of the Tribulation?

Why would Jesus come part way only to turn around and go back? We are told that Jesus will return again, not again and again.

Plus, your doctrine creates an opportunity for the unsaved to receive a second chance. The five unwise virgins never received that second chance.

You are coming up with things that you view as conflicts, which really are not, while ignoring that Scripture says after the tribulation of those days.

1) Exactly my point... He removes us when He judges. The seals, trumpets, bowls, etc are judgments. Hence, it is called the Great Tribulation.

A great picture of the rapture is Enoch. Other pictures of removal: Noah and his family, Lot and his family, John in his vision of the end.

2) Again, that's my point... He returns once, not again and again. So, if Christians are raptured at the end of the Great Trib. as you say, they would have to turn around and come right back with Him at His second coming. See scriptural reference.

Speaking of scriptural references... would you mind sharing some? I am interested in understanding your point of view.

Originally posted by packinmomma

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by packinmomma
reply to post by truejew

 

1) Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God...

I did not say we are. Noah was on earth when the wrath of God came, but he was protected by God. So were the Hebrews during the plagues against Egypt.

Originally posted by packinmomma

2) And why would Christians be raptured - caught up in the air with The Lord - after the Tribulation only to immediately turn around and come back down with Him, since it will be time for His second coming at the end of the Tribulation?

Why would Jesus come part way only to turn around and go back? We are told that Jesus will return again, not again and again.

Plus, your doctrine creates an opportunity for the unsaved to receive a second chance. The five unwise virgins never received that second chance.

You are coming up with things that you view as conflicts, which really are not, while ignoring that Scripture says after the tribulation of those days.

1) Exactly my point... He removes us when He judges. The seals, trumpets, bowls, etc are judgments. Hence, it is called the Great Tribulation.

A great picture of the rapture is Enoch. Other pictures of removal: Noah and his family, Lot and his family, John in his vision of the end.

2) Again, that's my point... He returns once, not again and again. So, if Christians are raptured at the end of the Great Trib. as you say, they would have to turn around and come right back with Him at His second coming. See scriptural reference.

Speaking of scriptural references... would you mind sharing some? I am interested in understanding your point of view.

How you can believe that the rapture is before the tribulation is beyond me.


Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The tribulation of the saints is not the wrath of God, the wrath of God is after the tribulation.

The beginning of the wrath of God coincides with the rapture of the saints and the Sun & Moon being darkened. The lights go out and 'THE LIGHT' returns in the clouds. Jesus remains in the clouds of heaven while the angels gather us to him, we are rescued from the wrath of God.

It will be a glorious day for us believers but an incredible day of sorrow for the wicked. The plagues described in revelation will follow immediately after the rapture of the saints.

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob


Great job ConspiracyNutjob!

This is what makes ATS a very interesting place to come and read.

And for people who fail miserably on reading the OP,I`ll quote the part that so many have missed

This could simply be yet another date that comes and goes but there are a number of events that all seem to be lining up for this date.

emphasis added

and you must have missed the ? in the thread title.

ConspiracyNutjob I came across a similar vid yesterday and didn`t know you had a thread running on it.

For a guy to call this visit 8 years ago,I thought was pretty impressive! (even if thats all that comes of it)

There are two parts to this video from what I understand,the first was made in 2000 and the second in 2005 by Dewey Bruton,who has quite a number of vids on YT of Daniels Time line.(which alot of it flies right over my head)

"Body of Evidence" - Obama's "Covenant Of Peoples" 7 year peace treaty? "Image" setup?


Regardless of this topic I would have been watching his visit to Israel with interest anyway.

S&Fed for an interesting topic.

Originally posted by packinmomma
reply to post by truejew

 

1) Exactly my point... He removes us when He judges.

Incorrect. He does not remove, He protects. Noah and family and Lot and family were not removed from Earth.

In the case of John... he was not physically removed from earth and not to avoid wrath from God.

In the case of Enoch... he was not removed to avoid wrath from God.

Your teaching also has a problem when it comes to the 144,000, who are here during the tribulation. Is there a second rapture so they can also avoid the wrath of God?

Originally posted by packinmomma

2) Again, that's my point... He returns once, not again and again. So, if Christians are raptured at the end of the Great Trib. as you say, they would have to turn around and come right back with Him at His second coming. See scriptural reference.

Incorrect. Pre-trib has Jesus returning before the tribulation and again after. Post-trib has Jesus returning once after the tribulation.

Originally posted by packinmomma

Speaking of scriptural references... would you mind sharing some? I am interested in understanding your point of view.

I already have. Here they are again.

After the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No second chance after the rapture.

Matthew 25:1-12 (KJV)
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

reply to post by gps777



Thanks for the support.

I am watching the video that you embedded right now.

reply to post by truejew


I think the confusion lies in assuming we disagree, when it may just be a matter of semantics...???

When I refer to THE GREAT Tribulation, I am referring to the latter half of Daniel's 70th week (AKA The 7 year tribulation period), I am speaking specifically of the wrath of God pouring out His judgments. This is NOT the same as those tribulations/persecutions that occur all over the world throughout history... and will occur, even more - much more so, as we near the 7 year period.

I'm not saying that we escape all trials and tribulations, it would be laughable to think so. We are warned several times about the fact that we will suffer for our faith. There will also be earthquakes, famines, pestilence, wars and rumors of wars. The signs will increase like a mother with birth pangs... increasing in frequency and magnitude as we near the end.

What I believe is that The Lord does not set His feet on earth until the second coming, and that the rapture is not His second coming, since He meets us in the clouds. I'm certain they are separate events. As described in 1 Cor. 15:51-54, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the rapture and meet him in the clouds. At the second coming, every eye shall see Him coming on the clouds and every nation shall mourn. Why would Christians mourn? Perhaps, you believe the rapture occurs at His second coming? But, why would we need to be transformed if we were coming straight back to earth?

Just curious... Have you read about the wedding traditions of Jews in Biblical times? It perfectly pictures God the Father, Jesus the Son and Bridegroom, and us - the Bride of Christ. The parable of the bridesmaids in Matthew is also a great picture of the rapture. In both the tradition and the parable, the bridesmaid is to be ready because the groom may call for her at any time. The groom does not come all the way to the bridesmaid, where she lives. He receives word from His father that it is time to bring her to his home. He travels, but only part way, close enough to call out to her (he blows his trumpet), then the bridesmaid goes to meet him. They leave together - immediately - to go to the father's house. In other words, the groom (Jesus) doesn't call his bride (us) to himself, then immediately return to her residence with her. Jesus will take us to His Father's house for the wedding banquet... just like the parable and the Jewish tradition.

Another thought... if no man knows the day or the hour and we are repeatedly warned to keep watch, how would a Post-Trib (after the Great Tribulation) rapture be any kind of surprise to us. We would know exactly when He is coming by the events going on in the world. It wouldn't be difficult, so why all the warnings?

The elect that are gathered at His second coming could be those that are saved during the Great Tribulation. Probably many who have heard the Gospel already and warned about the end times, but still declined to accept... until they see it unfolding before their eyes. Some say it's only the Jews. I don't believe that for a moment. All God's people are the elect.

The Trumpet sounds are an entirely different issue. There is a difference between angels sounding trumpets and the trump of God, which is His voice. All through scripture trumpets are blown by angels, but the trump of God is only blown twice... once in the OT, and once on the NT (at the rapture).

Anyway, food for thought. I enjoy reading other views and appreciate the time and thought everyone has put into their opinions. Because really, we could all have it wrong. But that's where faith comes in, doesn't it?

reply to post by packinmomma


Excellent details. I am sure some of the confusion comes because there will be post-Rapture saints, people that come to faith in Christ after the rest of us are taken up. Those people will face some terrible things, and it is for them that the time will be cut short.

The details on the weddings you offered are very good! That is a perfect picture of what we are told will happen. I hadn't heard all of that mentioned in some time.

The time of great tribulation will be the worst in all of history. Jesus warns us to be prepared for it and to remain steadfast. The holocaust of the jews during world war II will seem like a picnic in comparison.

I am concerned for those that believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because their faith will be sorely tested. They will question if there is a God when they are rounded up like cattle waiting for the rapture to save them. People that believe this false doctrine will feel betrayed by their pastors and teachers in the faith. Many will fall away and many people will betray one another to save their own skin. Some of the worst persecution will come from so called 'members' within the church itself.

When the sun and moon are darkened and the stars disappear from the night sky, that is when we are rescued. God's wrath will then be poured out on the wicked, everyone that was complicit with the beast and his image will be severely punished.

The term "Not knowing the day nor the hour" has been so misunderstood that it has created the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Examining the feast of trumpets will reveal why we do not know the hour, it is the next feast to be fulfilled. The last trump will blow at a time that we do not expect, in the last hour of the watch so to speak. I believe this to be the case bacause we will be waiting for the first slither of the moon to be revealed (this commences the feast of trumpets) but it will be delayed due to the sun and moon going dark. For how long, I have no idea.

From scripture I believe that we can know the day of Christ's return but not the hour. Christ explicitly references the day and the hour when he is talking about the heavens and the earth passing away. He only talks about not knowing the 'hour' of his return. If you have any doubt about what I am saying please research the feast of trumpets and look into this for yourself.

Originally posted by packinmomma
reply to post by truejew

 

When I refer to THE GREAT Tribulation, I am referring to the latter half of Daniel's 70th week (AKA The 7 year tribulation period), I am speaking specifically of the wrath of God pouring out His judgments.

Daniel's 70 weeks was already fulfilled when the Messieh was crucified.

I'll weigh in w/my beliefs in Pre/Mid/Post Trib... I'm believing for a Pre Trip Rapture.

If people want to believe for a Mid or Post- that's their right, I guess. Consequently, they can go then... Jesus will come to get them at those times (hopefully).

For the Post Trib believing: There are those that God considers to be "the elect" i.e. God's people in the Tribulation. They are holy, set apart... but they are not the Church, the Bride. They are God's people in the earth. They are like the people that God will have during the Millennial reign of Christ. But during the Tribulation, these would be, like I said, the people who die for Jesus and I believe it will also be comprised of the 144,000 Jewish Witnesses.

That is why the scripture that gets quoted in this thread so often from Matthew 24 makes sense to me:

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 NKJV

So there's the Bride - which we are, and are elected as well. Then there are 'the elect'. All of which are God's.

35 Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Luke 12:35-38 NKJV

Time is up!!!

Originally posted by MarkJS
I'll weigh in w/my beliefs in Pre/Mid/Post Trib... I'm believing for a Pre Trip Rapture.

If people want to believe for a Mid or Post- that's their right, I guess. Consequently, they can go then... Jesus will come to get them at those times (hopefully).

I'm curious about the logic of this.
Assuming, for a moment, that "Pre Trib Rapture" is going to happen- why would it be limited to those who are expecting a Pre-trib Rapture?
Surely it would be on the basis of "all who belong to Christ", rather than "all who belong to Christ provided they hold a certain belief about when things are going to happen"?

I am not expecting a pre-Trib Rapture.
Nonetheless, I would assume that a pre-Trib Rapture, if it did occur, would take me anyway, because I'm a believer in Christ. What other criterion should there be?