Shape-Shifting Jesus Described in Ancient Egyptian Text

You guys won't believe the thousands and thousands of verifiable documents we have about Jesus' existence, which were written before, and after, his death, within a span of a few decades - but you will believe one single "document", found 1200 years after? with no verifiable sources?

ATS - Welcome Ignorance.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
You guys won't believe the thousands and thousands of verifiable documents we have about Jesus' existence, which were written before, and after, his death, within a span of a few decades - but you will believe one single "document", found 1200 years after? with no verifiable sources?

ATS - Welcome Ignorance.

There are no verifiable documents from before or during Jesus' life, ONLY documents written AFTER his death.

The earliest is I believe 130 years after his death, so it's like me sitting down now and writing the life and times of Abraham Lincoln as though I knew him and was actually there.

reply to post by eight bits

Um, despite the interest shown by Scorpie, the underlying document is Christian (a tad late to be "ancient"). The actual version of the thread-title idea is also found in the canonical scriptures and genuinely ancient Christian writing.

eightbits, do you have any sources you can give us to back up this claim? According to the article, this text was written 1,200 years ago. Christianity was mainly practiced between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD before the Muslim conquest of Eqypt. Even though it was written in the Coptic language, the Coptic language was used between the 2nd century AD through the 13th century AD.

Why would Christians distort the message of Christianity? Why would anyone claiming to be Christian write a story disregarding the last supper with the disciples for a dinner with Pilate on the wrong day of the week?

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by zilebeliveunknown

 

and make no mistake, reality is what the Bible says, like it or not

lol

I'd think I'd have to categorize this as like an ancient form of fan fiction.

May have been mentioned already, but if this is an accurate account of what happened then it goes hand in hand with this:

Quran:

"And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)..."

Quran mentions more on the subject too, very interesting

Even the theologians and experts on the bible can't agree on numerous sections of the bible so i guess it is pointless trying here, just to say that contradictions run throughout religous scriptures and one of the biggest and longest lasting must be Judas. In the Book of Judas he clearly states that Jesus told him to kiss him to identify him, Judas was his favourite and that is why he chose him for the so called betrayal, Jesus knew what would happen in the aftermath of his death.

I think , on this topic, there are no right or wrong answers.
Everyone has their own beliefs to follow.
Years ago I included a version of this into mine
Peace.

reply to post by Aleister
Well since we are acting stupid here Obama is a shape shifter too! He is really George Soros who is really the Devil in disguise . Oops thats really too real !
Jesus died on the cross .Jesus came to earth to die as a Sacrifice for sin . He is not the same as King or Ghandi or some other do good-er . Jesus was the spirit of God taken on flesh , thus the Son of God come down to deal with man in mans environment .The divine plan was for Jesus to die on earth from the beginning . Flesh is not eternal .

reply to post by zilebeliveunknown


Jesus a shapeshifter? Sure! Why not?

Perhaps it's true and the great magician wasn't even on that cross. It was all just an illusion. That's just as good an explanation as any.

Upon reading the OP, I could not help but think of these pieces of Scripture.

1. Transfiguration of the Christ

The Transfiguration of Jesus is an episode in the New Testament narrative in which Jesus is transfigured (or metamorphosed) and becomes radiant upon a mountain.

2. John 20

And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

3. John 21:4

But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

4. Luke 24:16

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

S&F - personally this is a great find

cool
if they could make him look like someone else
they could make someone else look like him!

which means the whole thing is made to look like something else



some call it religion

Dee

eightbits, do you have any sources you can give us to back up this claim?

Like Sublimecraft, I refer you to the Transfiguration (in any of the synoptics), and I like John 20 for one post-resurrection example for the root notion that Jesus could appear differently to different people.

The tie to Judas' kiss is Origen's Contra Celsum Book II, "Chapter" 64, but not scriptually supported as a direct cause-and-effect. There is no "shape shifter" claim except something the reviewer made up, not me, to build traffic for the review page. It's his commercial spin on an entirely diferent gift or skill.

According to the article, this text was written 1,200 years ago. Christianity was mainly practiced between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD before the Muslim conquest of Eqypt.

Christianity is still practiced there today. Here is the website of the American branch

www.copticchurch.net...

It is a minority position in mostly Muslim Egypt, subject to discrimination, vandalism and persecution, but it hangs on despite its minority, opposition status. (The Coptic language survives with the change that the Arabic alphabet is nowadays often used instead of the Greek alphabet for renderings of the spoken tongue. Links to examples are on that site.)

Why would Christians distort the message of Christianity?

I'm not sure that that is what the intent of the underlying Coptic text was. Pilate is a different figure in Oriental Orthodoxy than is familiar in Europe. It is a separate apostolic tradition.

Why would anyone claiming to be Christian write a story disregarding the last supper with the disciples for a dinner with Pilate on the wrong day of the week?

Actually, the canonical Gospels are a little shaky on which day of the week. In part, this reflects reverse engineering of the Second Temple Jewish festival by people who become farther and farther removed from any thing from the practice of Second Temple Judaism. The Last Supper is also very different in John than in the synoptics (or the snippet in 1 Corinthians).

So, what was the intent of the original author of this work, as opposed to the spinmesiter whose review of a translation is the subject of the OP article? I wouldn't be surprised if it were similar to many late Gospels, such as so-called "Infancy Gospels," or the Shepherd of Hermas, or the Acts of Peter or Acts of Paul and Thecla. These are devout works, probably not competing with the canonical message, but developing selected aspects of it.

Devout stories can be told not because they are true, but because there would be a moral lesson if they were true. That's what I think you have here, something in an apostolic tradition, mindful of a canon, but wishing to supplement it for devotion outside of church meetings.

Or to put it another way, does the Galahad version of the Grail Legend "distort the message of Christianity?" No, it combines devotion with imagination. Odds are good that it was developed by professional Christian clergy, spinning the Perceval troubador version to make the hero more devout and monkish, more conventionally Christian. But making a fetish of the Last Supper cup must stir some reaction in any Protestant soul... but somehow it doesn't.

What is the problem if he was a 'shape-shifter'?

Does it detract from his mission on Earth? No it does not.

Our Messiah's words still ring true and relevant throughout the course of our human history, even today and will be for the future. He understands human nature well and taught us more about ourselves and relationship to each other to progress and evolve.

He, afterall, had work miracles as recorded and written down by TWELVE disciples telling with different perspectives based upon their own perceptions but the same event, not just only one creative writer over his teachings , so that ALL generations can refer to it. And every disciple had testified to his miracles in their writings as they spread out to bring the words of our Messiah which came from God to ALL humans on Earth.

He tried to teach them and even gave them such miraculous powers, but the disciples were not mentally ready to absorb such powers. He told them that they could cast out demons in his name, to move even mountains, if they but have faith, but mortal beings then are flawed, and are not educated enough to comprehend the POWER of the MIND. They were mostly only uneducated men - traders, farmers and fishermen.

Today, we this generation, through the evolution of science, had only discover the mere tip of such powers, as we realized the knowledge of neuroscience. the power of the mind to move matter. There still is much much more to be discovered, so that we may fulfil our destiny to the stars.

Our Messiah is a Divine Teacher in human form back then so that mankind can relate to him. With his cruxifiction, he lives even today, in our hearts and minds, through his words - moral and ethical guidelines from our common Creator, that never fails to echo inside us whenever we face difficult issues to deal with.

Have faith. Cheers.

reply to post by windword

Jesus a shapeshifter? Sure! Why not?

Perhaps it's true and the great magician wasn't even on that cross. It was all just an illusion. That's just as good an explanation as any.

The Illusionist, with Edward Norton. Fantastic film. And it demonstrates how easy it is to hoodwink simple-minded folk, especially when they have very limited cultural education.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
What is the problem if he was a 'shape-shifter'?

I am wondering the same thing. If people accept that jesus turned wine into water, walked on water, fed 5000 men with a couple of fish and loafs of bread, healed people from deafness etc with his hands and resurrected himself then i wonder why it should be so tough to swallow that he could change his form, does it out do his other miracles in some way ? Not if you ask me.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Judging by the manner in which Odin and Ra and Quetzlcoatl fell into obscurity with the passage of time, I'm still surprised to read the same sort of theistic fervor in the 21st century.

reply to post by eight bits

I'm not sure that that is what the intent of the underlying Coptic text was.

A lot of these sacred texts that are being found in the Middle East have combined so many different religious beliefs together, it's hard to tell.

One thought that popped into my mind was that the person (whether Muslim or Christian) might have been trying to degrade Judaism by making it look like there was no significance between the timing of Jesus' death and the Passover feast being celebrated. The timing of this event and their connection to each other is very important to both Jews and Christians.

Originally posted by Caterminator
As someone who has done calligraphy and illumination, the manuscript is beautiful. Funny how the source calls it apocrypha, as if there are true historical accounts and made up fanciful ones.

"Apocrypha" is the correct term for a group of texts (letters, books) that were passed around the early Christian churches but didn't make "the final cut" to be in the Bible. The Catholic Bible includes a number of these (including "Bel and the Dragon") -- which are omitted from Protestant translations of the Bible (which is a pity, because they're quite entertaining. I read them as a child, when the church service got boring (multiuse military church. We were Protestants, but the pews included Catholic Bibles as well as Protestant ones, so I got a chance to compare "the original" (Catholic) with "the edited" (Protestant.))

A lot of "external trivia" about the Bible (which often appeared in old plays or operas) comes from these manuscripts -- such as the name (Dismas) of the thief who repented on the cross.

Originally posted by Deetermined
One thought that popped into my mind was that the person (whether Muslim or Christian) might have been trying to degrade Judaism by making it look like there was no significance between the timing of Jesus' death and the Passover feast being celebrated. The timing of this event and their connection to each other is very important to both Jews and Christians.

That's unlikely. The text is very definitely Christian and (as the article says) this is the kind of story that Coptics wrote (we have many examples of them) to help teach Christianity and bolster faith in it.

Such stories do nothing but cause moderns (with our access to libraries and the internet and our ability to read) to scoff and chuckle. But to the illiterate ancients (most of whom never traveled more than 20 miles away from their homes), stories read from a book had huge credibility and tales of a deity/son of a deity who had the ability to transform himself make a good case for Jesus being divine (or magical.)