Ego Death

reply to post by Gnobody

The spiritual ego would certainly be the most difficult to transcend (that's amuzing).

And while moment to moment awareness and observation which is a type of hunting is required to see it for the superficial, inauthentic sham that it is, I don't think you understand the process when you talk about it like a demon enemy to be killed, in which case you might very well end up killing the wrong aspect, because absolute love and thus forgiveness and understanding is the only substance capable of dissolving it and transcending it and allowing it to surrender itself and be undone.

The very notion of being an enemy of a demon ego is itself the demon ego don't you see because it's based on hatred, vengeance and extreme fear of death. In such a seek and destroy mission, based on what you're saying the authentic spiritual self would be deemed the enemy and sought out for destruction and then where would that leave you..?

If this makes you laugh, then you get it, if it makes you angry at any level, then you'll know you're definitely barking up the wrong tree.

This may be my spiritual ego talking (to a degree) but I see the makings of a Liberation Theology where true and authentic Christian understanding intersects Adi Da's argument, something I've already tried to capture in my avatar.

Why? Because absolute love is absolute forgiveness = absolute liberation, in the face of which the ego has no other option than to be reintegrated and transcended, with the self as a being and becoming, an unconstrained and liberated creative process, in God as the absolute condition.

Quickest, and easiest way to a good old ego death is some black ayahuasca tea, magic mushrooms, and a whole load of other things we are not supposed to talk about here.

“Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong.”
TERENCE McKENNA.

And honestly that's the reason they are illegal Can't have people looking at things from a fresh perspective, because they might get hip to what is being done to them for $$$.

Hope I didn't break the TOS by mentioning the unmentionables.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I don't have a philosophy to share with you, but I do have a quick reality overview that might help you when you feel as if you're not "succeeding" at life. The moment your brain "went online" you won the ultimate existential lottery, and there is literally nothing that exists that can rob you of all that you could ever dream of. Well, that's not true, I guess. YOU can cheat yourself out of it by creating limitations and penalties of your own design. The bitch is that it's mostly really good and caring people that end up suffering the most as a result of the relentless competition they're engaged in against their own possible best expression.

Striving for improvement is a great way to live your life, but not if it becomes a source of pain and grief. You've already won the race. Maybe it'd be good to smile for a moment and imagine how wonderful it'll be once this material phase of your existence is completed.

reply to post by PassiveObserver

There is one in particular, I understand (no experience with it), which is a substance made synthetically and also secreted from the Sonoran Desert Toad, Bufo Alvarius, as outlined in the book Tryptamine Palace (a MUST READ), which is the best for absolute ego dissolution, as differentiated from the other of the same type but with 5Meo before it where the other simply produces halucinations like self dribbling basketball machine elves who sing reality into existence (stuff like that, as described by McKenna).

In fact, there is an organization or a place called TOAD for Temple of Awakening Divinity wherein a safe environmental and context is created by which to have that experience.

I plan to find it and go there, because what's the use talking about this or trying to achieve it, when you can actually go there and KNOW IT through and through.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I spent a good 13 years trying to get there. In all my time spent in altered states though I have kind of come to the conclusion that the "Truth" you get so close to in the height of the experiences is definitively a truth, BUT I came to believe that it is an incomplete truth, and may very well be damning.
Like the faceless self-transforming machine elves that sing existence into being, or the ecology of souls that McKenna liked to talk about, might very well be the beings that had their forms destroyed in the book of Enoch. The demons, Nephilim, fallen ones.

Got to be careful with these topics though they always seem to get 404'ed.

reply to post by PassiveObserver

Have you had an experience however, with the one I described above?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You know I'm not personally a chemist so idk if there is a deference between 5-MeO-'___', and '___'.
But I have many experiences with '___'. so idk for sure. I am currently trying to see if there is a deference. I know your pineal glad releases natural '___' when your dream.

Holy cow it auto filters the 3 letters.

There is most definitely a conspiracy with the substance.


Hmmm turns out they are not the same, but closely related. I honestly don't know.

I am going to have to read the book. I personally was what I would call atheist before I started my long strange trip, And as of today am fully convinced there is a creative force behind the universe, and there are things ,and beings that go unseen to the conscious eyes. Which seems to be the main jist of the book, at least that's what I get from reading the reviews on the site you linked.

reply to post by PassiveObserver

There's a big time difference between the two, and the 5Meo-[" " "]
(5 Meow - cat codeword)

is the one that generates ego-death, not the other which produces visions and mystical experiences (self dribbling basketball machine elves, etc).

Interesting your testimony about a conversion from atheism, that's always the case.

Also, the brain metabolizes this stuff in an instant and it's already endogenous to the brain, so it's not harmful in the least except possibly to the psyche. The key to the 5Meow, is the amount, which must be very small (about the size of a grain of salt or 15-25 MG for the synthetic (but no more).

A real brainiac philosophy professor was given more, and it terrified him to the nth degree and he was never the same ie: people with highly developed reality-constructs (like NorEaster for example) ought not take it, because the experience will blow them all away and requires absolute letting go of all our beliefs and ideas about the nature of reality. To hang on tightly in the midst of it, is to face the absolute terror of total destruction/annihilation.

James Oroc in the midst of his experience kept saying over and over again "It is love".

PM me on this and we'll discuss it some more.

Remember to breathe..

reply to post by PassiveObserver


richard alpert (baba ram dass) relates in his book "be here now" that elevating yourself with substance gives you a vantage point that enables one to see the goal. majestic as it might be, you are not yet there, and must continue the journey right from where you left off.

reply to post by orangutang

From what I understand about the 5Meow, it takes you there, the key being not to forget it, so then it's a matter of a 10 minute experience and the knowledge of it, or, 20 years of seeking.. and I don't think it matters either way. It's also the same thing we experience at death, so it would be nice to get it over with while still alive imho.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


i know nothing of 5M, but i would presume the difficulty would be to NOT take your ego with you. this applies to any substance and one mans meat may be another's poison. i would expect it counts significantly how much preparation went before hand..

reply to post by orangutang

The only way I would ever partake of that particular "eucharist" would be if I were to find the ever illusive Temple of Awakening Divinity (TOAD), where a very very experienced entheogenic guide generates a "mythosphere" within which to have a safe journey and knows everything to do, if a light touch might be required, and has just the right amount of pillows to fall back into, and then he'll even help you resurface to ego-land while retaining as much memory as possible. They say that one time only is sufficient to obtain the knowledge, and for everyone all mortal fear of death is utterly banished along with any atheist tendencies (not that that's bad it's just what happens). The whole experience lasts anywhere from ten to twenty minutes max.

"It is love!"

~ James Oroc (pudendum) "Tryptamine Palace"

reply to post by orangutang

With 5Meow given a sufficient dosage and you literally have no choice but to leave your ego behind because it immediately creates in the metabolizing of the substance a type of neurological Bose-Einstein Condensate and then it's bu bye ego-self and HELLO cosmic consciousness.

I'd rather do that, in a safe environment, than take a trip to Hawaii.

It CANNOT be obtained anywhere on the web (except scams), so unless you know a chemist-botanist or have legit animal euthanasia requirements (who can request it from large Chemical companies on order, the synthetic variant), there is only the giant Bufo Alvarius Toad which can be found in the Sonoran Desert, and sadly the toads themselves can be purchased, but you'd better have a habitat prepared!

The T.O.A.D can be found through the Burning Man network of hippies, and my suspicion is that it's somewhere in Ashland Oregon ie: that if you were to go there and ask around about the entheogenic counter culture, you might get referred to someone who knows someone.

If you decide to go toad hunting in the Sonoran Desert look for areas with pooled water surrounded by stones (not sure what time of year they're out). The animal is probably the biggest toad in the world because they're about a foot long and almost half as fat, with giant circular glands on the side of the head which can be "milked" (I know sounds ridiculous) by gentle message with the opaque liquid substance dripped onto glass, dried and scraped off. For toad excreted 5Meow-[" " "] as opposed to the synth version, the amount (dosage) is higher (around 30-50 mg - Oroc talks about it in the book Tryptamine Palace).

So I think it's either accept ourselves as we are, warts and all (pun intended) or go in search of the toad or T.O.A.D. and then of course we all experience it when we die, physically.

Who knows maybe it's best to wait 'til then because we don't want to water that experience down and have a bad trip then only because it didn't compare to our toad experience! That would suck, but in truth I don't think that would be the case as we'd only be all the better prepared for when it happens and we might even look forward to it knowing in advance that there's absolutely nothing whatsoever to fear.

Someday when the time is right, I'll find it the place where the "T.O.A.D." is, and then i'll go there to the place where it's no longer mere philosophical speculation or even a sought after mystical experience or so-called "enlightenment".

It's the ultimate vehicle for the ego-death experience that's all I know and I don't think even Adi Da's argument compares.

A few questions to consider about using chemicals to induce some kind of ego-dissolution. If we understand that the first gesture of the ego-I is rooted in separative attention (in the causal dimension associated with the right side of the heart), how do we think any chemicals of this gross physical plane can possibly undo this core and most basic level of ego-patterning?

That ego-patterning is beyond the reach of chemicals - originating in a different sheath of the whole body altogether, and nothing any chemicals are going to touch. How could these causal structures, more subtle than the subtle body, be really undone in this artificial manner? Such undoing is beyond ANY search for this undoing, even if there are apparently moments of real recognition of That which is beyond and prior to all arising.

Sure, certain chemicals can relax the ego-structure we may be currently aware of, but the core structure of the ego will always re-assert itself (when the chemicals' effects subside), albeit possibly differently due to changes in the psyche - and possibly in "good" or "bad" ways as already mentioned by NewAgeMan.

reply to post by bb23108

It could also serve as a touchstone if done correctly and there's only one such molecule that does the trick in that regard which is 5Meow.

Back on topic via the conventional method.

Here's something that I wrote in another thread recently that I think definitely applies here to this one

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by backcase

 

I think the key is to become profoundly aware of the degree to which the egoic-self is absolutely superficial and inauthentic, and then imagine that pathetic little knot of self-contraction as a defense against all authentic awareness and appreciation, to be utterly enclosed and enveloped on all sides by a limitless love and unconditional acceptance, until "it" surrenders and our true and authentic self in God bursts out laughing in the humor of true understanding and the absolute absurdity of our prior state of mind and being (locked up in ourself by ourself to protect ourself for no reason than fear of the all-in-all as the unconditioned ground of all being and becoming which is also a nothing that is everything.

Then, relative to the domain of nothing/everything we are set free to freely create and re-create ourselves as a personality of our own creation/choosing, but without being deluded into thinking that's who we really are ie: just a role we are choosing to play. Thereafter, once this re-cognition has taken place, we cannot take our "self" seriously anymore while taking God as our true condition, seriously, because that's all there is.

So it's not vacuous - it's humorous from the outside-the-box POV.

The second and last key then at this point is never to forget and to remain aware and observant, lest we become re-absorbed by the various roles we are playing on the stage of life and take that to be our authentic self, which by it's very nature is inauthentic or superficial.

So again, it's not nihilistic, involving the annihilation of the self, but the discover of the no-self self which is an add-to-able self ie: when we know that whoever we are being at any given moment is simply our own creation.

The very best we can do therefore is to be entirely authentic in regards to our own inauthenticity, and that's charming and lovable.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well, i loved that explanation. i believe i am saying the same when i quote a few yogis who say our mistake is identifying with the mind/body complex. but from past experience i find one can have the most profound discussion about duality and its falseness and feel a change in the surrounding space/atmosphere only to find moments later plunging immediately back into dual mode. one has to be really really browned off with duality to the point where nothing external is of any value anymore. only then can you make reality your one and only chosen goal. the money or the box, no half measures. i'm in doubt that 5m would be a valid move, but i guess i'll never know.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Gnobody

 

The spiritual ego would certainly be the most difficult to transcend (that's amuzing).

And while moment to moment awareness and observation which is a type of hunting is required to see it for the superficial, inauthentic sham that it is, I don't think you understand the process when you talk about it like a demon enemy to be killed, in which case you might very well end up killing the wrong aspect, because absolute love and thus forgiveness and understanding is the only substance capable of dissolving it and transcending it and allowing it to surrender itself and be undone.

The very notion of being an enemy of a demon ego is itself the demon ego don't you see because it's based on hatred, vengeance and extreme fear of death. In such a seek and destroy mission, based on what you're saying the authentic spiritual self would be deemed the enemy and sought out for destruction and then where would that leave you..?

The 'authentic spiritual self', as you describe it, is very different from the spiritual ego, or any ego. By destroying you egos you are making more room for you divine self to manifest, more room for your true self to be.

I personally don't think any ego will 'surrender' itself to you...it will lie to you, hide from you, trick you..but never surrender. I also think that the wrong aspect won't be killed because all aspects of it have to be killed, I hear people talking about 'good' egos or good sides of the ego, on a certain level they are right, but in the end all aspects of all egos need to be defeated and banished for your true self to emerge.

I don't agree when you say that "The very notion of being an enemy of a demon ego is itself the demon ego don't you see because it's based on hatred, vengeance and extreme fear of death"

That fact (in my own belief) that my many egos need to be eliminated is not based on any hatred, vengence or fear of death, it's simply aknowledging the 'fact' of my make up and beginning a process to comprehend and destroy them. To hate my egos is to hate myself, they are very much a part of me, and to hate yourself will get you nowhere.

To transend the state we are in and gain knowledge, wisdom and comprehension about ourselves we have to become less not more.

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven".

I don't believe the above words from Jesus are talking about material wealth...

'Demon' was only one of several words I used to describe the egos, different religions or schools use different names or words, I suppose I'm more familiar with the term 'demons' as I am most familiar with Christianity.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
If this makes you laugh, then you get it, if it makes you angry at any level, then you'll know you're definitely barking up the wrong tree.

I wonder why you felt the need to add this at the end of your post...

What would it mean if I felt indifferent to what you wrote? Or if I felt sad, sympathetic, confused or exasperated?

As always, the above is only my own personal belief and opinion...

Gnobody

Originally posted by orangutang
Well, i loved that explanation. i believe i am saying the same when i quote a few yogis who say our mistake is identifying with the mind/body complex. but from past experience i find one can have the most profound discussion about duality and its falseness and feel a change in the surrounding space/atmosphere only to find moments later plunging immediately back into dual mode.

Yogis typically are looking to escape the body-mind through various practices that allow them to ascend up the spinal line through the brain core, and potentially beyond the gross body-mind complex into the subtle dimensions.

But such seeking to exclude the body will never undo the ego-structure based in the primal process of (becoming) attention itself. Attention is the first gesture of separation that consciousness "does" by tendency when associating with the body-mind. This structure is not transcended in the subtle dimension through any yogic techniques, no matter how blissful and beyond the gross body-mind such experiences may be.

The same lessons will have to be learned in the subtle realm as in this gross physical realm if one looks to escape the body-mind - the lesson that no seeking avails as we are already one with Consciousness. However, to actually realize this is the most profound of matters, and unfortunately various traditional teachings of non-duality have become the basis for innumerable people thinking they are enlightened because of some mental understanding of such teachings.

Originally posted by orangutang
one has to be really really browned off with duality to the point where nothing external is of any value anymore. only then can you make reality your one and only chosen goal. the money or the box, no half measures. i'm in doubt that 5m would be a valid move, but i guess i'll never know.

You also must become entirely disillusioned with anything internal. All seeking, whether apparently inside or outside, needs to come to rest through the real equanimity of Consciousness or Reality Itself.