Ego Death

I've been moving through moments of blissful awareness in an ocean of discontent and all manner of distraction (what else is new), seeking searching trying to integrate "the answer" to the problem of my life. I've watched the movie the secret, pursued everything in search of "the truth" and the answer, and don't get me wrong, in the process I've come up with a plethora of knowledge even what some might call "wisdom" and understanding. I've had not one but FOUR "dark nights of the soul" like some sort of Shamanic journey (said with egoic pride), but to be honest, it was a bit of a sham, I have been, not entirely authentic you might say, even pretentious and cleverly designed to look exceedingly intelligent (in spite of the likelihood that half the time most people probably didn't even have a clue what I was really trying to say in the first place..), and in the final analysis i came up short, because my life experience to be honest, sucks, and I can barely find within myself the motivation to live a full and happy life (sound familiar to anyone?).

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired, but I want to know why and what can I DO about it if anything. Argh!

In fact I'm sick and tired of listening to my OWN opinion about things, let alone yours..

I don't want opinions, or descriptions, if there's a realization and a recognition to be had I must have it. Perhaps the closer I get to it the more depressed and fearful I become, because it involves by it's very nature a surrender, or so it seems, as if a part of me might die and I'm scared, for me as a separate self, and a rather lonely one at that however outwardly friendly I might be able to make myself appear (but it's authentic for the most part as I do love people).

Anyway, I think I've run across what might be called an "argument", a philosophical position of what might be called the unconsolability of the separative self and the pursuit of spiritual mysticism and theological understanding, and imho, it holds up. The argument, is sound (thus something that I felt if I'm all for it might also be a worthwhile thing for you also to consider).

Disclaimer: My "frame" is still that of an evolutionary Christian mystic (sounds fancy doesn't it?) because I believe in the love of God within the context of the brotherhood of man which celebrates "the other" of the other while sharing the same communal table (unconditioned ground of all being and becoming), in other words with "the head" of the table missing yet present amongst us, so no guru required just the love of God only whereby we can begin to thoroughly enjoy one another's company..

But my Christianity, if it's to be valid, it can withstand any criticism and any inquiry, and if what I believe is true about God as our loving prior condition, it (my conceptions) would be willing to dissolve themselves as a "reality palace" in my head if in the final analysis, that would liberate my heart within the heart of God. There's no need to renounce Christ imho, because the kingdom of heaven IS the very state where God becomes our condition and that realization is the finding of the buried treasure, or the precious pearl sought the whole world over by a wealthy merchant prepared to sell everything he owned just to have it (profound God realization with the principal of the self's attachments, transcended).

I suppose I needed to say that, to offer an apologia for Christ because I believe that he's been terribly misunderstood as a heart master, so I don't go along with Adi Da's repudiation of Christianity, but I can embrace his argument nevertheless, wholeheartedly and Jesus also concurs I believe, being of the same reason and logic in regards to our true nature and relationship with the Absolute.

So now my life's work is to do the "Sadhana", the practice of non particularized fearlesss bliss, joy, happiness and great humor. I have to admit that I'm not feeling it today mind you (lol that's funny), but every day I have my moments, and they're increasing, moments of Reality without self-concern or fearfulness.

Anyway, with that adieu I offer you Adi Da Samraj's explanation of true ego death, for your enjoyment, and God willing (always) your humor of understanding in the profound self-knowledge of personal experience to the degree of the transcendence of the principal and mechanism of Narcissus..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Dear NewAgeMan,

I am so sorry that you feel so much pain and do not know how to overcome it. I believe you can handle more than you think you can. What if life was about not losing the ego; but, owning by paying for it with pain? If you believe a Christian then believe God created you, why would reject you? Life is about pain and challenges and opportunities and joy, everything has it's time and we are never challenged more than we can handle; but, we choose when we tap out, when we give up. If you didn't give up in the beginning (and you are here now) then your ego is already there and exists for eternity as the explanation of what you were and what your limit was.

So... on the topic of ego death... where exactly does it fit in with your loneliness / Christian Mysticism / Jesus heart master / Sadhana?

I'm not a Mystic of any sorts and I don't pretend to know anything about any of this although I would like to know.

And I'm afraid I'm too busy to watch a 56 minute video on Ego Death. Sounds interesting... but...

reply to post by AQuestion


Oh I get that, and I'm just starting out with the practice. I just had a bad day, it happens no biggie.

But this "argument" about living in an ocean of absurd ridiculousness bring about a recognition and realization (which could involve some mourning even some tears of sorrow, sadness, regret) as our prior condition and prior freedom and unfettered, unconstrained liberation appears to have as it's root (capable of uprooting this incessant activity of the fearful, separative self) - humor, joy, bliss and the authentic desire for real communion,

From this new perspective or paradigm, and from this rock of reason it's not I who need to be consoled (although I appreciate the sentiment don't get me wrong), no then it's I who can console the inconsolable.

You're right we can "take it" take the pain, and the fear, and in the final analysis, paradoxically that was the vehicle of our liberation (this is where the humor comes in).

The drama queen in me however isn't so sure that this is the way to go.. more humor you see.

My pain and sorrow has all been rooted in my own inauthenticity, my desire to "look good", my Narcissus, all hedged in by the separative life experience - but from outside looking in, that's hilarious the magnitude of the absurdity of it all.

Then we're left with you, and everyone else's delusion of self-ness and the contracted and defended self - but what I like about Adi Da's argument from the video, what my heart enjoys is the notion of absolute liberation even when surrounded by an ocean of insanity and absurdity and ridiculousness.

And when you see it, your own ridiculousness and Narcissistic stratagems, there are tears, at first, then laughter maybe even tears of laughter and the hand that wipes away the tears from our eyes, that's built right in to the original dilemma - it's joy, celebration, appreciation, and wonderment once absolute liberation is achieved.

Where it starts to get really serious is when we consider the degree to which almost everyone the whole world over operates on the basis of this dilemma trapped in the bonds and constraints and limitations it places upon all but the whole of humanity - that's not a laughing matter.

But if I can make a start, begin the practice or Sadhana, then at least I'm doing something worthwhile, even if only at first for my true self in God.

There was nothing we needed to DO. Lot's of drama all along the way of course but in the end when we reach it, maybe even in this life looking back on it, we'll see that it was nothing (the uncaused enlightenment).

So I'm not looking here for your sympathy or consolation, no I'm after your humor and not just at me, others or the world at large, but humor in the knowledge of your own ongoing present moment experience and activity or practice (Sadhana) relative to everything and every aspect that you are not by comparison (what was inauthentic). Then I'm not alone you see. Then there's a communal table with at least two of us present so that there's someone else whose company we can enjoy.

It's doesn't sell very well however, because it's an offense to the ego, so I guess I'm here first to offend you at your own expense and then to make you laugh at the prior absurdity in the light of true knowledge and understanding which by its very nature is humorous, happy, blissful, joyful and without concern or fear

Sometimes maybe we have to slap each other in the face and say - WAKE UP! but in a loving, not a condemning way.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Dear NewAgeMan,

Our beginning was not us, it was all of us, if that is what you mean; but, we got beyond us into seeing the individual aspects of us. You are unique and I am not you; but, we are part of the same universe and have aspects in common. Prior to the big bang, we were just us with no understanding of us.

But I'm not looking here for your sympathy or consolation, no I'm after your humor and not just at me, others or the world at large, but humor in the knowledge of your own ongoing present moment experience and activity or practice (Sadhana). Then I'm not alone you see. Then there's a communal table with at least two of us present.

I have a joke for you then, it is one about the communal table. A man dies and is met by Saint Peter, Saint takes him to a room. Within the room is a table that goes on forever and on it sits every food you can ever want to eat. At the table are billions of people with four foot long spoons attached to their hands. They are all starving because they cannot get the food in their mouths.

Saint Peter then takes the man to a second room and it is identical to the first except everyone is feeding each other. It is easy to see which is heaven and which is hell. Peace.

reply to post by Wang Tang


I'm just sharing, and if you want the ultimate position or argument, then you'll have to watch the video.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


it appears to me that ego is strictly a temporary phenomenon and an illusion due to the certainty that "god" being all there is leaves no room for duality. it seems like there is separate existence but that is the erroneous report of the 5 senses. simply put, we identify so strongly with the mind and the body that we forget our own supreme reality. how we arrive in this mess is beyond me but the various paths to enlightenment, if practiced faithfully, will eventually reveal our true nature.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

In fact I'm sick and tired of listening to my OWN opinion about things, let alone yours..

After stating that you are "full of wisdom and knowledge" and that you've traipsed after an endless course of man-made dogma, you conclude and perceive the truthfulness above.......then you move right along to the next bit of man made dogma.

Why are you rejecting what you yourself have concluded?

For the WORD of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

You are sick of your own opinions. You are sick of ours and by extension everything else called "knowledge" by man which is JUST OPINIONS. But you still will not hearken to the above. WHY? The answer is given there - you think the WORD to be foolishness, when in actuality it is the POWER OF GOD. So what do you keep doing in your never ending search for "truth"? Rejecting Him and you thus have no peace, only restlessness.

Going to refer to a passage from a book that 's a collection of some of Jung's writings entitled 'Psyche & Symbol'.

You mentioned surrender and it speaks to that in a way; and not that i'm any master of ego death, my impressions are somewhat experiential and also part speculative as i haven't had the full on heroic climatic trip yet, if such a thing exists. Maybe it is more incremental than that at times, who knows.

Anyways I submit to you the following, to make of what you will, if anything. It was an interesting few paragraphs for me to consider at least, at the time when i read it.

...In reality both are present: the supremacy of the self and the hubris of consciousness. if ego consciousness follows its own road exclusively, it is trying to become like a god or a superman. But exclusive recognition of its dependence only leads to a childish fatalism and to a world-negating and misanthropic spiritual arrogance.

This conflict between conscious and unconscious is at least brought nearer to a solution through our becoming aware of it. Such an act of realization is presupposed in the act of self-sacrifice. The ego must make itself conscious of its claim, and the self must cause the ego to renounce it. This can happen in two ways:

1. I renounce my claim in consideration of a general moral principle, namely that one must not expect repayment for a gift. In this case the "self" coincides with public opinion and the morale code. It is then identical with Freud's superego because it is projected, and therefore essentially unconscious and identical with environmental circumstances.

2. I renounce my claim because I feel impelled to do so for painful inner reasons which are not altogether clear to me. These reasons give me no particular moral satisfaction; on the contrary, I even feel some resistance to them. But I must yield to the power which suppresses my egoistic claim. Here the self is integrated; it is withdrawn from projection and has become perceptible as a determining psychic factor....

...These two ways of renouncing one's egoistic claim reveal not only a difference in attitude, but also a difference of situation. In the first case the situation need not effect me personally and directly; in the second, the gift must necessarily be a very personal one which seriously affects the giver and forces him to overcome himself.

In the one case it is merely a question of going to Mass; in the other it is more like Abraham's sacrifice or Christ's decision in Gethsemane. The one may be felt very earnestly and experienced with all piety, but the other is the real thing.

So long as the self is unconscious, it corresponds to Freud's superego, and is a source of perpetual moral conflict. If, however, it is withdrawn from projection and is no longer identical with public opinion, then one is truly one's own yea and nay. The self then functions as a union of opposites and thus constitutes the most immediate experience of the Divine which it is psychologically possible to imagine.

What I sacrifice is my own selfish claim, and by doing this I give up myself. Every sacrifice is therefore, to a greater or lesser degree, a self-sacrifice. The degree to which it is so depends on the significance of the gift. If it is of great value to me and touches my most personal feelings, I can be sure that in giving up my egoistic claim I shall challenge my ego personality to revolt. I can Also be sure that the power which suppresses this claim, and thus suppresses me, must be the self. Hence it is the self that causes me to make the sacrifice; nay more, it compels me to make it.

Freud coined the term ego, and to me perhaps it is just a word, though there is something to it, and of course definitions and interpretations will vary.

Jung mentions later on about Christ's crucifixion being representative or symbolic of an ego death, and his cross has to do with being strung if you will between a tension of opposites, or something to that effect. I don't know, its a hard thing to wrap my head around, and thinking about ego death related experiences i've had in the past, or so i would label them as such; it kind of freaks me out as they were of the dark and frightening, self questioning existential crisis variety.

I think one important thing for me personally speaking was to be sincere from the heart, and humble in that sense, be as real and as honest as possible, including and maybe beginning with yourself. And not to get 'hung up' on things, but also when push comes to shove, to know where you stand in the face of opposition or adversity. Not meaning in a strong opinion kind of way, but in a being true to yourself kind of way, regardless of how potentially unpopular or uncomfortable it may be.

I think this is more difficult than people might realize, many follow and believe things without even understanding why; the influences of the world and 'public opinion' , culture and customs etc. of society and the status quo, and what is considered acceptable or not can be a strong pull. After all, people desire acceptance on some level or other. We are a social species.

You mean ATSers aren't chomping at the bit
to figure out how to give up their EGO's haha?
It would be tough for most to part with their Avatars.

Anyway, I think the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid initiation was the pinnacle
ceremony of EGO death. Listen to Manly P Halls'
Initiation of the pyramid talk.

I'm often amazed at how many seekers (not you) won't listen to a 33 degree
Mason at the end of his life revealing all the things he's learned in his 89
years . It's all there.
Enlightenment wrapped up in nice 2 hour long sound bites .

Im purposely not providing a links because you
probably already know about them, and its important that you seek
them out.

Here's a little bit Manly P Hall mentioned about those days "you are not feeling it"
or are stuck. Visualize a pyramid as best you can in meditation. Ask for guidance and to
heal what ails you. Pyramids are the essence of Wisdom/Fire and Ascension.
A square based (4 sided) pyramid with 51 degree slopes is best,
but any pyramid will do.

The Egyptians believed that a pyramid as well as
the other 4 platonic solids,were sacred symbols of God and when meditated upon
could relieve a persons physical and spiritual burdens.
And continue bettering the person even when not
in contemplation.
Hope that helps.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


i doubt anyone is wading thru the 56 minutes of adi da's lecture. its a lot to ask of nacissus after all considering the total grokking/understanding of the lecture will kill you.
i'll watch it in stages as time is short for a family man. i reached 8 and one half minutes where he reminds us that ego is mind and mind is ego. and that mystical experiences thru [jesus or non jesus](my terms) avenues are merely a consolation for the ego/mind. after all, if you experience something, its automatically second hand and cannot be the truth. its within duality. i confess its enticing and can be a little "carrot on a stick to the donkey" and some on the "path" have them and others rarely or not at all.
he illustrates that fear of mortality drives us to seek out a way that makes us feel safe and saved. as another thread pointed out fear of hell encourages some to seek religion. spiritually inclined people have already been there.
(i've always enjoyed da's books whilst every sentence he writes undermines the ego. i spotted his pic at a midwifes house and thought it was her son. i thought-"that guy's out of his tree"! only later did i realize he was her guru. i think he was a scorpio which might explain his penetrating mind.)
as the world is projected by the mind, then upon the ego's dissolution the world either vanishes or is seen for what it really is. by then you're one with the supreme reality and all is well and always was and always will be.
you're beyond consciousness and its witness, beyond assertions and denials.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

We cannot lose any aspect of God-realization we already have, so whatever real wisdom and knowledge I possess that's valid and authentic, it remains, and the rest can fall away.

I did not renounce my abiding faith in Christ because what we're talking about here is the transformation of the mind, heart and soul to that of Christ, reborn in spirit and truth, to become one with it (with him) and in the process coming to see the kingdom of God spread out everywhere before us as the Reality.

But I acknowledge that Jesus did not go to the cross for the sake of my ego, so that my separative self can remain in tact and be consoled and that by religious practices and belief I can hope for heaven in some afterlife, I just don't think it works that way. In other words everything about Jesus and his teachings and his action was to reconcile me and us to God so that heaven can be realized, now, and our divine and authentic self as brother of Christ and child of God, set free and liberated to be freely self expressed as love or in the words of St. Paul "set free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved."

What I'm seeking therefore is a real and actual rebirth capable of regenerating my heart and soul, reborn in God if you will whereby the ego-self is seen for what it is, which is a binding knot leading only to eventual degeneration of the human being. Anything that aids or fosters the consolation of the ego-self, including religious belief does not lead to liberation, but just another type of bondage. I want real freedom, real truth and life, and to enjoy the real Christlife as the real truth and knowledge.

The same principal and argument applies in this case however whereby we must first become absolutely convicted, not in our "sins" per se (which are obvious) but the root of our sinful nature which is this egoity of the separative self. This conviction when it comes persuades us in the most profound manner that as we are in our ego-self we are absolutely superficial and inauthentic. To then employ the mechanism of Christian salvation to save the ego and hold it in place, while claiming to take Jesus in as some sort of homunculus sitting on a throne in our heart, only solidifies the very dynamic by which we required salvation in the first place in it's consolation of the self, but the authentic person isn't really reborn in God but only contained within another framework, another context with the same self absorbed narcissist sitting in the middle as the real homunculus who now, being forgiven, asserts himself in new ways, perhaps by becoming outwardly righteous and a "better person" so as to prove his conversion, but that's still superficial and inauthentic, still in service, not to God, but to the inner one, to the ego self.

Conventional Christian thought doesn't even touch this idea while claiming transformation ie: rebirth, but it's false you see and can only serve the ego-self who then thinks that he's reserved a spot in eternity when all the while that eternity may have just been eternally delayed because now the ego has a new gilded cage by which to be "ok" by which to be consoled while perhaps holding one's true and authentic God-self captive...

How much harder at that point will the final realization and liberation be..? And at the point of physical death, it's the only thing that dies and so then all is lost and if anything the karmic wheel turns a notch while demanding that justice be served and how painful will that be as we look to Jesus to explain what went wrong?

It's a now thing, and it must contend with our egpic nature to the core and without any compromise whatsoever.

Traditional spirituality or religion just doesn't get the job done, unless and until we recognize the truth which cuts to the very core so as to be curative.

Most cannot see it within the context of the Christian understanding, so if there's an argument and a philosophical position by which the same thing can be realized I owe it to people to share it, and adopt it, but I can never renounce the love of God in the person of Jesus that one encounters in the Gospels (which can be read in one sitting). Don't be absurd. He's the very best part of who I really am as child of a loving God. He ought to be freed and liberated to move us as a process (never a thing), instead of bottled up and held captive in the frame of religious dogma or offered merely as consoling religious sentiment which is nothing but fluff without substance.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by Runciter33

Excellent passage, very helpful. Thanks.

The key factor I've learned from taking in Adi Da's argument (which is what it is, nothing more just a superior argument and valid criticism of traditional "spirituality") is that this dilemma of self preservation vs. self-sacrifice is an occurrence in real time in terms of an ongoing present moment ACTIVITY, otherwise any realization is generally quickly forgotten as the ego reasserts itself and with the true and authentic one forgotten and locked away again. Therefore it is an ongoing present moment practice or activity, until it becomes our native and natural disposition through and through and all the time as the dominant way of mind and heart and soul.

It ought to become ever easier as we go too because by comparison the ego-stuff is all junk stuff anyway, all nonsense, which has no basis in reason or logic - so the ongoing present moment state and condition (in God) then becomes one of a profound and ecstatic HUMOR as the humor of true understanding.

Watching the video a second time, I find myself smiling and laughing almost throughout the whole thing, so I must be getting somewhere eh?

That's my hope and prayer really, that not only will I get it, which I will and am because there's something about my heart-mind (being already fairly well informed) that eats this stuff right up and integrates it and recognizes the superiority of the criticism and argument being put forward - but that you do too, and as a result come into what can only be described as the humor of understanding, because it's humorous to God the lengths to which the ego-self will go to protect itself from God, you see. Perhaps it's first line of defense is to use God concepts to shore up it's frame of reference as a separative self / ego-self. Narcissus is a genius, up to a point.

But I cannot be left laughing alone. For us to have real communion at the communal table somehow you must be persuaded to laugh with me at all our prior absurdity and ridiculousness and the whole ocean of insanity that mankind is presently locked into, because it is that very laughter you see which will break the spell of the collective ego-self's absurdity and ridiculousness and all the ensuring mayhem that it wroughts (rots?) upon the earth and our fellow man, including ourselves.

We live in an ocean of absurdity!

Originally posted by sealing
You mean ATSers aren't chomping at the bit
to figure out how to give up their EGO's haha?

Yeah it doesn't sell very well, I should have used a better title and maybe tricked them somehow, but because freedom rules people are well advised to measure the cost of discipleship because in these matters there are no half measures.

“Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards.

You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

On the humor of understanding. (it's shorter)

Re: God

“God cannot be explained. He cannot be argued about. He cannot be theorized, nor can He be discussed and understood. God can only be lived.

To understand the infinite, eternal Reality is not the GOAL of individualized beings in the illusion of Creation, because the Reality can never be understood; it is to be realized by conscious experience.

Therefore, the GOAL is to realize the Reality and attain the “I am (born of) God” state in human form.”

~ Meher Baba – from the book “God Speaks”
(born of) added by me in recognition of God as higher power and infinite intelligence begetting us i.e.: sharing everything with us, because of love.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

Nicodemus and Jesus - Reborn
go to 2:24 in the vid - segment runs to 5:35

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Ego death is the coming to this moment and realizing that you are 'timeless being'. 'Becoming' is seeking and the 'seeker' is living in time.
Only when the seeking ends will the seeker cease to be.
The seeker is the divided one.

All the while that you 'want more' you continue to dream the dream of separation.
This moment is all there is but the mind imagines time so you can live a separate pretend life in imagined pretend time.

Is there really anyone in there?
youtu.be...

I cannot recommend Unmani enough - she can show you the way.

All very interesting....

In my opinion, one of the most dangerous egos is the spiritual ego.

This particular ego/psycological aggregate/demon/part of the self, or whatever name you wish to use, is responsible for creating religions, corrupting religions and causing untold deaths in the name of religion.

To bring death to an ego (we are possessed by a legion of them) we have to become like a hunter going after his prey, we need to first choose one, then observe it, learn it's ways, how it operates, how it infulences us, how it tries to hide from us, how it affects our emotions & our minds, and even our other egos. Once we become aware of it, observed it, understood it and comprehended it, only then can we even begin to fight it.....it will be a very long time before we are near bringing death to it, maybe even more than two lifetimes...

However, beware....if you manage this monumental task of killing a single ego, there is still the chance (if you are not vigilant) that it could be reborn and take hold of you again...only this time it will be even harder to eliminate...

Gnobody