The Satanic Panic

Originally posted by odd1out
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

And one more thing, where have you addressed my simple questions: How has this harmed anyone...can you show me there is a reason to fear any of the propaganda against these entertainers? Show me the numbers of people hurt, and I'll show you how many SERIAL KILLERS, MASS MURDERERS read, and "THOUGHT" they had some kind of higher knowledge from the Bible, THROUGHOUT HISTORY.
NO???
Didn't Think So!!!

Oh please do, please do. (provide examples and we can morbidly compare body counts).

I already explained what the intention is behind the industry.

They are promoting the pursuit of money, sex, fame, and power. These are the traditional things which have caused the most havoc historically. No the symbols themselves are not going to kill anyone or make them sell their souls or anything like that.

They are merely a banner to identify with.

It is the message that is being preached to the masses, rather successfully, which is the real concern.

They don't really cause people to go out and kill or steal (although there is a murder to the theme of Eminem that comes to mind . . . I think went something like evvviillll riiiiissee). What it does is perpetuate a culture which promotes these activities.

How many gang bangers roll around listening to gospel or classical masterpieces (except Hitler of course, he is one hell of an outlier) before they commit a drive by? Go watch interviews and testimony from the individuals and you will find they often all listen to songs which have no positive message before they ride out.

This video below probably translates the idea more effectively to one of your inclination.

Originally posted by DresdenCodex
reply to post by Soulece

 

yo.

an owl represents a freaking owl. they are cool birds that look good on tattoos. done.

not EVERYthing is a conspiracy.

sorry.

now - let's talk about the IRS for a while - THOSE are some satanic mo-fo's.

yo. do you know what the bohemian club is? Do you know what he said about the other guys forearm tattoo? Do you know what creature is caught on video of being worshiped at Bohemian grove?
Ever hear Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen?

The IRS building is indeed a masonic building. Just look at it.

Originally posted by Soulece

Originally posted by DresdenCodex
reply to post by Soulece

 

yo.
an owl represents a freaking owl. they are cool birds that look good on tattoos. done.
not EVERYthing is a conspiracy.
sorry.
now - let's talk about the IRS for a while - THOSE are some satanic mo-fo's.

yo. do you know what the bohemian club is? Do you know what he said about the other guys forearm tattoo? Do you know what creature is caught on video of being worshiped at Bohemian grove?
Ever hear Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen?
The IRS building is indeed a masonic building. Just look at it.

FYI the owl is a symbol of Athena who is also known as Minerva, the goddess of wisdom.

The owl is also depicted alongside Ishtar, the queen of heaven from Babylonian religion.

en.wikipedia.org...

Ishtar (pronounced /ˈɪʃtɑːr/; Transliteration: DIŠTAR; Akkadian: 𒀭𒈹 DINGIR INANNA; Sumerian 𒀭𒌋𒁯) is the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of fertility, war, love, and sex.[1] She is the counterpart to the Sumerian Inanna and to the cognate north-west Semitic goddess Astarte.

Hmmmm seems to share a lot of traits in common with what has been talked about in this thread.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
How many gang bangers roll around listening to gospel or classical masterpieces (except Hitler of course, he is one hell of an outlier) before they commit a drive by? Go watch interviews and testimony from the individuals and you will find they often all listen to songs which have no positive message before they ride out.

Really, is this your logic? How many people listen to this kind of music and don't go out and gang bang? Furthermore, what does music have to do with gang-banging anyway? This music is NOT what gang-bangers have in common that cause them to form these groups...or do you think you can prove that wild leap somehow? Ugh, I really, and truly give up. You have lost all credibility with me

My thread will be posted in a few days...talk to you then.

"Good night Ralph...
...Good night Sam."

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

Originally posted by Soulece

Originally posted by DresdenCodex
reply to post by Soulece

 

yo.
an owl represents a freaking owl. they are cool birds that look good on tattoos. done.
not EVERYthing is a conspiracy.
sorry.
now - let's talk about the IRS for a while - THOSE are some satanic mo-fo's.

yo. do you know what the bohemian club is? Do you know what he said about the other guys forearm tattoo? Do you know what creature is caught on video of being worshiped at Bohemian grove?
Ever hear Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen?
The IRS building is indeed a masonic building. Just look at it.

FYI the owl is a symbol of Athena who is also known as Minerva, the goddess of wisdom.

The owl is also depicted alongside Ishtar, the queen of heaven from Babylonian religion.

en.wikipedia.org...

Ishtar (pronounced /ˈɪʃtɑːr/; Transliteration: DIŠTAR; Akkadian: 𒀭𒈹 DINGIR INANNA; Sumerian 𒀭𒌋𒁯) is the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of fertility, war, love, and sex.[1] She is the counterpart to the Sumerian Inanna and to the cognate north-west Semitic goddess Astarte.

Hmmmm seems to share a lot of traits in common with what has been talked about in this thread.

It all goes down to Egyptian lore.

That's what they take from. That's why we see the images everywhere. Why they have such a love for it I do not know. But the illuminati are there. Their signs are prevalent and right in front of us. Illuminati is just one name. He goes by many.
Look at Rihanna. Look at her new Egyptian tattoo under her bewbs. Why Egyptian? They use Egyptian relics as their sign. It's odd. Also, I just put the owl together with wisdom. They wirship knowledge. Wisdom. Which is fine. But that is "the forbidden fruit" Adam bit into. Think of Apple's logo. I'm going on tangents here.

Originally posted by odd1out

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
How many gang bangers roll around listening to gospel or classical masterpieces (except Hitler of course, he is one hell of an outlier) before they commit a drive by? Go watch interviews and testimony from the individuals and you will find they often all listen to songs which have no positive message before they ride out.

Really, is this your logic? How many people listen to this kind of music and don't go out and gang bang? Furthermore, what does music have to do with gang-banging anyway? This music is NOT what gang-bangers have in common that cause them to form these groups...or do you think you can prove that wild leap somehow? Ugh, I really, and truly give up. You have lost all credibility with me

My thread will be posted in a few days...talk to you then.

"Good night Ralph...
...Good night Sam."

Soooooo you don't want to provide any of the evidence you were threatening with?

You have offered up nothing but your opinion . . . . . backed by nothing . . . .

When offered documented evidence contradictory to your opinion on Christianity and blind faith you respond in a matter which requires blind faith to accept and even changed what you were arguing.

Did I ever say it was the music that makes people commit crimes?

Nope, I said that it perpetuates and promotes the culture which breeds such activity. So twist yourself up into all the shapes you can think of to continue on believing in your delusions.

Why would I bother giving your thread any attention when you have already demonstrated that you don't care about facts that disprove your opinion?

Unfortunately history is written by winners, the other side of the story if its not lost forever, it lies far from mainstream views of history. ex none talks about how christianity established in a pagan polytheistic society like greece... Christianity crimes against humanity 350 ad - 1800 ad cannot be compared to any ''antichrist'' ever existed on earth.

tortures, fascism, destruction, and ban of science and philosophy and atomic freedom, As Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche says Christianity took the world at least 2000 years back in progress. Satan is the most powerfull tool christianity has for spreading their dogma of fear.

Don't give me wiki ''history facts'' , Church has incredible influence and power over our world and was a major part in re writing history.

ex ''Saint' Constantine banned pagan religion and tortured millions pagans burned thousants books of mythology,c philosophy and science and fried his sister alive in hot oil.
''Saint'' Antonio ruled Alexandria destroyed every book, temple and Statue he could find even in the houses of people, he ordered the barbaric tortured execution of philosophers and women pagan priests some believe he was one of the destroyers of the library,

Orthodox Church accepts the above as ''SAINTS'' among with other sick bastards of our past. they build temples to their names and they are worshiped till today. Very few know the truth Nowdays

It is all here (try translate)
eineken.pblogs.gr...

I just want to share truths, about the hidden history of Christianity who dare to call others evil satanists just because the use of some generic symbols

reply to post by Dr1Akula


Thank you! I am in the process of writing a thread about this, and I hope to see you there.

Oh and Babblingbroccoli, you too...

reply to post by Dr1Akula

Unfortunately history is written by winners

This is often said but it is not true. I have seen and heard plenty of revisionist histories. The winners and the losers both have their sides of the story, and they pass it down the generations. Nothing is lost or forgotten, but much is made up.

The other side of the story if its not lost forever, it lies far from mainstream views of history.

There is plenty of controversy among historians, all of whom may be called 'mainstream'; I doubt that there is a single historical proposition on which all scholars agree. And outside the historical mainstream lurk the resentful losers, myth-makers, confabulators, religious fanatics, propagandists, conspiracy theorists and compulsive liars, each with his very own version of the truth. They publish books, get on TV, post YouTube videos, infest the internet. None of their ideas are lost forever—and what a pity that is, because most of them are tripe and piffle.

None talks about how Christianity established in a pagan polytheistic society like Greece.

On the contrary, the story is very well known and appears in most history books. Not to mention the Acts of the Apostles. May I direct you to the work of Edward Gibbon?

''Saint' Constantine banned pagan religion and tortured millions pagans burned thousants books of mythology,c philosophy and science and fried his sister alive in hot oil.

Not a word of this is true. Constantine was not a persecutor. Far from it: his Edict of Milan established religious tolerance throughout the Empire and he himself worshipped pagan gods as well as the god of the Christians. He did not even convert officially to Christianity until he was in his forties. And he did not fry his sister (or anyone else) in oil—at least, not as far as anyone knows.

''Saint'' Antonio ruled Alexandria destroyed every book, temple and Statue he could find even in the houses of people, he ordered the barbaric tortured execution of philosophers and women pagan priests...

Who? There was never a ruler of Alexandria called Antonio, unless you mean Mark Antony, the Roman pagan who was Cleopatra's lover.

Perhaps you mean Athanasius? He was a Bishop of Alexandria who was heavily involved in religious politics under Constantine, including the persecution of Arians (who were Christians, not pagans), but none of the slanders you relate above are true of him.

It is all here (try translate)

If it's all there, it can't all be suppressed and forgotten, can it?

I agree with you that all this talk of Satanism is just hysterical right-wing 'Christian' nonsense, but that doesn't mean you get a free pass to rewrite history on this thread.

reply to post by Dr1Akula


Constantine? You mean the high priest of the sol invictus cult?

Heard your argument a thousand times over, its essentially a straw man argument based on weak presumptions.


So for 2000 years the Roman Catholic Church which does NOT represent all of Christianity kept back the whole entire world's progress?

What of the progress of China for the 1000 years before Christianity found its way there?
What of Japan?
What of all of North America?
What of Central America?
What of South America?

Right so Christianity upon its conception ended all progress across the world . . . .


You come across as far more superstitious than any Bible thumping Christian.

So you literally believe through some supernatural force Christianity ended the progress of nations and peoples on different continents with which they had no contact.


I only said I was defending against ridiculous claims, which you seem to be a fanatic believer of such. I already said I find the RCC to be a modern incarnation of the old mysteries as they ascribe to the symbols of those faiths, they have changed the 10 commandments making the Pope god on Earth, made Mary 'queen of heaven' (aka Astarte who is Ishtar and the origin of the celebration of Easter), burned men and women at the stake (some of whom merely learned Greek and Hebrew to accurately translate the Bible to other languages which exposed their alterations and manipulations of the Bible).

Do you think such Godless societies such as communist China and Russia did not commit an equal amount of atrocity in their day in the sun?

AS for your claims of the conflict of science and Christianity:
Science and Religion: A Historical Introduction
Gary B. Ferngren
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362473085&sr=1-1&keywords=Gary+Ferngre n

Although popular images of controversy continue to exemplify the supposed hostility of Christianity to new scientific theories, studies have shown that Christianity has often nurtured and encouraged scientific endeavour, while at other times the two have co-existed without either tension or attempts at harmonization. If Galileo and the Scopes trial come to mind as examples of conflict, they were the exceptions rather than the rule.

Written by distinguished historians of science and religion, the thirty essays in this volume survey the relationship of Western religious traditions to science from the beginning of the Christian era to the late twentieth century. This wide-ranging collection also introduces a variety of approaches to understanding their intersection, suggesting a model not of inalterable conflict, but of complex interaction.

Tracing the rise of science from its birth in the medieval West through the scientific revolution, the contributors describe major shifts that were marked by discoveries such as those of Copernicus, Galileo, and Isaac Newton and the Catholic and Protestant reactions to them. They assess changes in scientific understanding brought about by eighteenth- and nineteenth-century transformations in geology, cosmology, and biology, together with the responses of both mainstream religious groups and such newer movements as evangelicalism and fundamentalism. The book also treats the theological implications of contemporary science and evaluates recent approaches such as environmentalism, gender studies, social construction, and postmodernism, which are at the center of current debates in the historiography, understanding, and application of science.

Contributors: Colin A. Russell, David B. Wilson, Edward Grant, David C. Lindberg, Alnoor Dhanani, Owen Gingerich, Richard J. Blackwell, Edward B. Davis, Michael P. Winship, John Henry, Margaret J. Osler, Richard S. Westfall, John Hedley Brooke, Nicolaas A. Rupke, Peter M. Hess, James Moore, Peter J. Bowler, Ronald L. Numbers, Steven J. Harris, Mark A. Noll, Edward J. Larson, Richard Olson, Craig Sean McConnell, Robin Collins, William A. Dembski, David N. Livingstone, Sara Miles, and Stephen P. Weldon.

Your finger pointing on the limiting of progress is also of limited scope and reeks of hatred for what most rational researchers have identified as the exceptions to norm.

Provide real conclusive evidence please and not hocus pocus magic finger excuses for the ails of the world and its people.

reply to post by Astyanax


Sir, I doubt it means anything to you but, I am impressed.

Opposite points of view but at least there is some measure rationality in the discussion here.

Ok I tried to make a long story short, But obviously I didn't succeed( sorry for my English)
If I find time I can write more but for now I can only say the following;

312 the so called sun worshiper Constantine wins maxentius with christianic sympols in their armor, yielling Summe Sancte Deus , Deus SUmmus Salvator,

313 In Rome Constantine makes Christianity official religion among pagans but has an extra love to this new religion due to his Mother who hates to death all pagan and polytheistic religions, pusses him to destroy all other religions. the high preist of christianity Eirinaius with the support of Constantine says Christians do not need laws becouse their God is above all kindoms of earth, and pushes the destruction of all the other old religions, Saint Antonious (religious leader of Alexandria and Egypt invents monasterism and provokes his followers to set an end to old religions by fire and torture death to all Pagans

315ad The Sun worshoper Constantine builts the first
christian church which immidiatly start ''war'' with Pagans. The christianic synodus
of Agyra says the worship of Zeus is the worship of satan.

319ad Constantine frees CHristianic church from all taxes and other political responsibilities and gives
power to the Christian church

324ad Constantine Sets Christianity the only legal religion in Roman Empire while he loots the Great Temple of didimeou Apollo and kills
with Barbaric tortures all the Priests. At the sacret pagan Mountain Athos He Puts A great war on Zeus worshipers and destroyes every ancient greek temple, Book, etc.

to be continued...

reply to post by Dr1Akula

the so called sun worshiper Constantine

Constantine and the cult of Sol Invictus

Constantine... has an extra love to (Christianity) due to his Mother who hates to death all pagan and polytheistic religions, pusses him to destroy all other religions.

History does not record that the Empress Helena was involved in any kind of religious persecution. She was a gentle, pious woman who spent her last years as a pilgrim in the Holy Land, and was credited with finding the True Cross.

the high preist of christianity Eirinaius with the support of Constantine says Christians do not need laws becouse their God is above all kindoms of earth, and pushes the destruction of all the other old religions

There was never a 'high priest of Christianity' until the institution of the papacy. Do you mean the Bishop of Rome? There was never one with the name you mention as far as I know. The most famous Christian figure with that name was Irenaeus (Eirinaios in Greek), the first of the Church Fathers. But he was Bishop of Lyons, not Rome, and he died in 202CE, seventy years before Constantine was born.

Saint Antonious (religious leader of Alexandria and Egypt invents monasterism and provokes his followers to set an end to old religions by fire and torture death to all Pagans

Ah, he 'invented monasticism', did he? Then you are probably referring to St. Anthony of Egypt, who was often called 'Father of All Monks'. He was not the 'ruler of Alexandria' (that was Constantine) nor was he its 'religious leader' (among Christians at the time, that was Athanasius). Poor St. Anthony led a blameless, largely solitary life, most of it spent as a hermit in the desert. He did visit Alexandria at the invitation of Athanasius to preach against Arianism but his name is not associated with attacks on pagans—or anyone else either.

Constantine Sets Christianity the only legal religion in Roman Empire while he loots the Great Temple of didimeou Apollo and kills with Barbaric tortures all the Priests. At the sacret pagan Mountain Athos He Puts A great war on Zeus worshipers and destroyes every ancient greek temple, Book, etc.

More false claims. It was Theodosius, not Constantine, who made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. As I said in my earlier post, Constantine's rule was marked by general relgious tolerance.

Do you have a source for this stuff or are you just making it up? If you have a source, please cite it. Don't bother with web sites and modern authors—if such information is genuine, it could only have come from some ancient text. Please tell us the name of that text or texts, and the names of their authors.

If you intention is to slander Christianity, there is plenty of genuine material. Why bother to make things up?

reply to post by Astyanax


No I'm not Making stuff up. I am not that kind of person....I know this subject very well and I've also discussed it with professor Rassias author of the book you will find everything I've said with historical evidence (www.scribd.com... %84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%91%CE%B3%CE%AC%CF%80%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%97-%CE%99%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%A4%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%A7%CF%81%CE% B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE%CF%82-%CE%95%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%83%CE%B5%CF%89%CF%82)
. I am just having trouble translating the greek text especially the names. Early Christians destroyed entirely the ancient greek culture and all pagans across europe. and among the dark ages they brought fear, superstition, bias and hating for everything strange and different to them. You are just telling me the official views of catholic church for the Historical figures I mention above, I know everything you wrote about, The problem is it's not the real story... You may believe every source you like, I don't care, I just want to spread truth on a highly sensitive subject for the christian church. Sorry if my writing offents you but I become sick when I read from you that Helen who order her son Constantine to brutaly kill his own wife because just because she thought she was pagan..... was a gentle, pious woman?
Obviously you know only a part of the story, but thats the work of the church and YES I believe HIstory has been re written....
From 324 ad till 1800 panteism, paganism, philosophy, mythology, science etc was banned and related to satan
all across europe, Todays remainings of ancient greek text are not even 1% of the entire treassure of knowlege our ancestors would have left us. Church tried to erase completely the ancient culture from the mind of the people by destroying every book and temple they could find and you are telling me winners dont make history....
I don't believe it.

reply to post by Astyanax


here you can find a small part of the book I mentioned translated in english

www.ysee.gr...

Oh dear. I'm laughing so hard. God who knew this thread was going to be such a great comedy? Really? We have people bemoaning the lack of rationality in a thread discussing the existance or lack thereof of made-up entities? I LOVE THIS!

Originally posted by Malynn
Oh dear. I'm laughing so hard. God who knew this thread was going to be such a great comedy? Really? We have people bemoaning the lack of rationality in a thread discussing the existance or lack thereof of made-up entities? I LOVE THIS!

Well if you doubt that there is anything such as the paranormal or supernatural then I suggest these texts for you. You can extrapolate whether there is any such thing as entities after a little investigation.

Hunt for the Skinwalker: Science Confronts the Unexplained at a Remote Ranch in Utah
Colm A. Kelleher
George Knapp
www.amazon.com...

Leading a first-class team of research scientists on a disturbing odyssey into the unknown, Colm Kelleher spent hundreds of days and nights on the Skinwalker property and experienced firsthand many of its haunting mysteries. With investigative reporter George Knapp -- the only journalist allowed to witness and document the team's work -- Kelleher chronicles in superb detail the spectacular happenings the team observed personally, and the theories of modern physics behind the phenomena. Far from the coldly detached findings one might expect, their conclusions are utterly hair-raising in their implications. Opening a door to the unseen world around us, Hunt for the Skinwalker is a clarion call to expand our vision far beyond what we know.

The researchers were from respected backgrounds.

If you don't want to read, though I highly suggest you do its a good one, these two gents' review the information presented in the book.





I highly suggest part 2 as they delve into some the more fantastical bits of the subject.

There is another man by the name of John Keel who wrote the Mothman Prophecies which you can do some research and find all the corroborating evidence verifying that there is a high probability of the existence of entities.


The Mothman Prophecies
John A. Keel
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362537923&sr=1-1&keywords=mothman+prophecies

West Virginia, 1966. For thirteen months the town of Point Pleasant is gripped by a real-life nightmare culminating in a tragedy that makes headlines around the world. Strange occurrences and sightings, including a bizarre winged apparition that becomes known as the Mothman, trouble this ordinary American community. Mysterious lights are seen moving across the sky. Domestic animals are found slaughtered and mutilated. And journalist John Keel, arriving to investigate the freakish events, soon finds himself an integral part of an eerie and unfathomable mystery.

Yes this may offend your rationality but it has been documented and confirmed by modern methods. With that having been achieved one can apply what is known from today's research to what has been recorded in the past.

Enjoy!

reply to post by Dr1Akula

No I'm not Making stuff up. I am not that kind of person.

I didn't accuse you of making stuff up. But somebody is—probably the people whose web site you are quoting.

That site belongs to an ethno-political organisation, the Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes. Are you a member? Can you explain why a web site created for political propaganda purposes should be trusted as an unbiased source of historical information?

As I said earlier, I am not impressed by a modern source making these claims. If they have a grain of truth in them, there will be ancient Greek or Roman writers to back them up. If you want to be taken seriously by educated people, those are the sources you must provide.

Anyway, this thread is not the place to discuss such things. We are talking about whether rock stars are demon-possessed pawns of the Illuminati, not about the Christian persecution and suppression of paganism in Europe during the Dark Ages.

reply to post by Astyanax

You have misunderstand me the Source is the book which has all the ancient sources you may need, and not the site I quoted. The site has no intention for for political propaganda(????) it is about the restoration of the ancient Polytheistic religion and tradition.
Have you ever read Celsus the Roman Philosopher 175a.d. who debunked successfully the early christians and accussed them of stealing stories from the mythology to write their holy books? He was lucky enough to live before the brutality that came when christians got power.... and we were lucky enough that some parts of book survived the crazy book burning because a vatican monk kept it safe

Anyway sorry for the off - topic stuff , I just wanted to say that Church always needs a ''Satan'' and they try to find him anywhere. I strongly believe if they could, they would burn alive those satanic artists.
I am not saying there are not some Christians who are polite, calm and believe in love. But most of them can't accept the freedom of people practicing other religions around them, and this behaviour goes on from the early years of the dogma until our days. Maybe Ravi Yeshua talked about love, but all I see from them is HATE for everything different.

reply to post by Dr1Akula

Have you ever read Celsus the Roman Philosopher 175a.d. who debunked successfully the early christians and accussed them of stealing stories from the mythology to write their holy books? He was lucky enough to live before the brutality that came when christians got power.... and we were lucky enough that some parts of book survived the crazy book burning because a vatican monk kept it safe

1. Celsus cannot have been the source for the accusations you have made regarding Constantine and Helena, because he died before they were born.
   
   
2. Celsus wrote nothing about Christian atrocities or persecution of pagans. So he cannot have been your source for any of those claims, either.
   
   
3. Celsus's book survives because one of the Church Fathers, Origen, wrote a reply and repudiation to it, in the course of which he quoted the entire book. Hard to see how Celsus's book can be a 'successful debunking' if we only know about it because a Christian philosopher debunked it in its turn!

Celsus

Now here's a quote from J.M. Roberts' History of the World:

The classical heritage had been terribly damaged and narrowed by the barbarian invasions and the intransigent other-worldliness of early Christianity. (But) by the tenth century, what had been preserved of the classical past had been preserved by churchmen, above all by the Benedictines and copiers of the palace schools who transmitted not only the Bible but Latin compilations of Greek learning.

The truth is a lot more complex than axe-grinding revisionists try to make out.

This has been a pleasant little diversion from the thread topic (which, to be honest, I find less interesting than our argument). I doubt we'll be allowed to carry on much longer, though.