What is Zionism

What is Zionism?

There has been much propaganda posted on this thread about what Zionism is not.

This post borders on racism IMO.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf Maiden of Misanthropy
posted on 5/9/2003 at 04:01 PM

In a nutshell, one might say zionism is an extreme form of Judeism that borders on Nazi ideals. It basically believes the interests of the state and jewish people supercede all other concerns in the world, and there is nothing too dirty, to crude, to evil, too underhanded that can be done in the support and defense of the Zionist state

There also were posts trying to explain what Zionism actually is...

infinite Sick Of Man FSME:NWO
posted on 5/29/2004 at 02:16 AM Post Number: 560250 (post id: 580944)

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception,tangible as well as spiritual aims.

This thread is an excellent opportunity to learn what Zionism is really about. Actually, Valhal, a member of ATS, has written some very good background material about this part of the world and its current problems. The series is called "Flight to 9/11" I recommend reading this series.

And one more quote from this thread that I think we should keep in mind during this period of world wide danger.

Transc3ndent posted on 5/30/2004 at 01:25 AM Post Number: 561601 (post id: 582295)

Zionism is nothing more than an Idea that the Jews would suffer much less from
antisemitism if they had their own country. Sounds logical to me.

Can't you simply understand that?

I think you sould read this, I wrote it once as a post to a news report:

It then is followed with a good description of problems in the middle east and Israel. Go back and read the post.

This has been a good chance to learn from different points of view. ATS gives us the chance to do this.

edited by Mahree-typos







[edit on 10/22/2004 by Mahree]

Transc3ndent says "I know this because I am a jew and we learned it in school"...?!
How can anyone be so blind! The jews in Israel are even more brainwashed than most citizens of the USA, which is pathetic. I am a jew who lives in the USA, but I don't believe anything I was taught in school. It's very difficult to know the truth about history, because even if something is footnoted, who is to say the source documents are credible? "Whoever controls the present controls the past. Whoever controls the past controls the future". The following link explains what happened to our spy ship "Liberty" in 1967. I highly recommend watching the video in which the surviving crew members discuss what happened. The traitor President Johnson wanted it to be sunk, which could have ignited WW-III. When you learn what really happened to the Liberty, you will understand who was behind the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks. The illuminati control Israel and our government in the USA, plus most other governments of the world. Zionism is just a tool they use, and they hide behind the jewish religion. I believe all the religions and political parties were created and are controlled by them. Everything is controlled and censored, but occasionally information is available that is beyond the control of the gatekeepers. After watching this video I will never think about the world the same way again! ~PEACE~
tyrannyalert.com...

Transc3ndent says "I know this because I am a jew and we learned it in school"...?!
How can anyone be so blind! The jews in Israel are even more brainwashed than most citizens of the USA, which is pathetic. I am a jew who lives in the USA, but I don't believe anything I was taught in school. It's very difficult to know the truth about history, because even if something is footnoted, who is to say the source documents are credible? "Whoever controls the present controls the past. Whoever controls the past controls the future". The following link explains what happened to our spy ship "Liberty" in 1967. I highly recommend watching the video in which the surviving crew members discuss what happened. The traitor President Johnson wanted it to be sunk, which could have ignited WW-III. When you learn what really happened to the Liberty, you will understand who was behind the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks. tyrannyalert.com...

Originally posted by PoliticsForum

Jews have been persecuted mainly because of the non sense of the Talmud.

How pathetic! How do you explain the persecution before the Talmud? or do you not know that the Talmud is not that old?

Jews have been persecuted because the dumb gentiles did not know how to become as successful in business and were jelous of the jewish success wherever they went. That is my take on the whole thing since nothing else makes any sense.

OR it may have been because of the superiority of the god our forefathers invented and worshiped which was claimed to have attributes better than any other god. So in a sense the jewish god was a threat to the other gods since the Jewish god was abetter invention than the other savages' gods.

You do know that most people on this forum would be classified as a gentile right?
The jews have been persecuted for many reasons....killing jesus christ was one reason. another reason is that the jewish community is really connected so alot of the time they would only do business with other jews therefore hurting the economy.

Also don't try and play that game where if anyone disagrees with zionists or any other form of that bullcrap that they are automatically anti-semetic.

Get over yourselves.

Have you noticed that certain Jews who love to throw the word "Anti-Semitic" around all the time are usually the same people who lump all Arabs together & say
"All Arab Moslems are Terrorists". Guess what - Arabs ARE a Semitic people. So I guess they like to be "Anti-Semitic" towards themselves - Hypocrites. Maybe that is because the majority of the white skinned people of European descent that call themselves "Jews" are NOT the Original Jews - but Converts. The original Jews had dark/brown skin.

[edit on 23-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Maybe that is because the majority of the white skinned people of European descent that call themselves "Jews" are NOT the Original Jews - but Converts. The original Jews had dark/brown skin.

Cannot the same be said of all white people of mono-theistic faith - by definition wouldn't Jesus have been brown skinned too. Judiasm is a faith not a race. You could argue that there is a semitic race but this does not detract from the fact that you can be a Jew regardless of colour or creed. Just as you can be a Christian regardless of race.

Zionism is at its core, pre-emptive nationalism, just as Syonism was for the Non-Roman Christians. The establishment of State, national identity before religious identity, this is Syonism. At one time, at least, this was the New World Order. It is in decline now of course.

there is no set chrisitian race like the jews because chrisitianity was based off jesus and his followers not just jesus

reply to post by Zenskeptical


And your point is....

The Jews didn't appear either, they had their own prophet and they followed him. Therefore still not a race, a religion just like Christianity.

Originally posted by Zenskeptical
.... another reason is that the jewish community is really connected so alot of the time they would only do business with other jews therefore hurting the economy.

In the Middle Ages, Jews in most parts of Europe were under many restrictions on what professions they were allowed to take on, and who they were allowed to do business with. For example, Jews were not allowed to join any craft guilds or participate in most trades, in the majority of Europe (with a few notable exceptions). It's not like these people "chose" to do business only with other Jews; in most cases, the society in which they lived dictated this to them.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Maybe that is because the majority of the white skinned people of European descent that call themselves "Jews" are NOT the Original Jews - but Converts. The original Jews had dark/brown skin.

That's not factually correct. While there is some truth to the fact that many Jews in the West (Europe, America, as opposed to the Jews that lived in the Middle East) mixed with the local populations, these people were hardly "converts".

Here is one of many sources available that explain this fairly well:

Source

Although the historical record itself is very limited, there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East. When they arrived in northern France and the Rhineland sometime around 800-1000 CE, the Ashkenazi Jews brought with them both Rabbinic Judaism and the Babylonian Talmudic culture that underlies it. Yiddish, once spoken by the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jewry, is a Jewish language which developed from the Middle High German vernacular, heavily influenced by Hebrew and Aramaic. (By comparison, the Greek or Latin influence on Yiddish was much less significant). Recent research in human genetics has also demonstrated that a significant component of Ashkenazi ancestry is Middle Eastern.

European Jews came to be called "Ashkenaz" because the main centers of Jewish learning were located in Germany. "Ashkenaz" is a Medieval Hebrew name for Germany. (See Usage of the name for the term's etymology.)

The original zionist idea's were achieved in the creation of Isreal. Nothing wrong with the idea of Zionism as it was originally concieved.

Now there is a distinction between the idea of zionism (the creation of a jewish state)and political zionism (using politics to assure the continued existance of Isreal), which needs to be made. Jews should have their own homeland (original concept). The united states has to assure the survival of Isreal at all costs, or has to pay huge foreign aid to Isreal, or attack Iran etc. This is political Zionism, achieved through such groups as AIPAC and the countless other Jewish NGO's and fraternial organizations.

As the expression goes, your freedom ends where my nose begins. Isreal has every right to ensure its survival, its free to do so. However, when its political pressure causes the United States to act on its behalf, the US citizens get shafted. Nearly 7,000 Americans have died since 9/10/2001 as a direct result of political zionism. 3,000 in the WTC as a result of our Isreal first middle east policies, and another 4,000 after the Neo-Con led invasion of Iraq. Neo-Con=Political Zionists if anyone has yet to grasp this concept.

So to sum up. Zionism is ok and Political zionism is ok in Isreal. However political zionism in the United States has led to nothing but heartbreak for US citizens.

As for the history of anti-semitism a few points that should be brought up. After world war 1, the german economy was in collapse and their dollar was worth less than a peso. Many foreigners, mainly jewish, came in and bought up large amounts of German porperty and land at rock bottom prices. Between the label of christ killers (I'm more of a deist so dont lay that at my feet) and the resentment of the average German who was suffering after WW1, it set the stage for the events of WW2.

Even further back in time, Europe was against usury. That is the lending of money with an interest rate. Why? its in the bible somewhere. So in the middle ages Europe, Jewish banking enclaves in cities thrived. As later in history their success as well as the label of Christ killer led to anti-semitism.

Just thought I'd chime in and add a few things.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

by definition wouldn't Jesus have been brown skinned too.

Yes I agree. There is an ATS Thread on this topic. Check out the picture in my post on this thread/link (it is at the very bottom):

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Judiasm is a faith not a race. You could argue that there is a semitic race but this does not detract from the fact that you can be a Jew regardless of colour or creed. Just as you can be a Christian regardless of race.

Yes, again I agree. So in that case shouldn't the finger pointers be saying "Anti-Judaic" instead of "Anti-Semitic"? And also - do you think that it is really Judaism that the Arabs have a problem with - or is it "Zionism"? I think it is Zionism my friend.

I am BOTH Anti-Terrorist & Anti-Zionist because Zionism & Corruption (of Religion in this case) breeds Terrorism. Are you telling me that anyone on the planet can Convert - become a Jew & then have the right to "Return" to Israel? Any real Religious Jew will tell you that the Israel in the Bible was never meant to be Thought of as an actual Physical State. That is like calling the "Kingdom of Heaven" an actual Physical State or Kingdom - thank God Jesus explicitly told us it wasn't. What if a Group of People Invaded Canada & took it over & then said "Our God/Religion says that we have a right to this Land"? What if that happened to a State of America? I am sure that us Americans would have a problem with this Scenario.

I know that there are numerous Moslem Extremist Terrorist groups in existence - they are Evil & this does not excuse their despicable actions - but dare I say that Israel has acted as a "Terrorist State" (i.e. the Premeditated Killing of Civilians) herself from time to time?

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
What if a Group of People Invaded Canada & took it over & then said "Our God/Religion says that we have a right to this Land"? What if that happened to a State of America? I am sure that us Americans would have a problem with this Scenario.

First of all, Israel is the historic home of the Jewish people from ancient times. After the Romans expelled the Jews from Jerusalem, where do you think they all went? A lot migrated to other parts of the Roman Empire, but there were still many Jewish people in Israel, all the way up to the modern period (although the Crusaders slaughtered both Arabs AND Jews when they invaded the region).

Beginning in the late 19th century, many European Jews AND Arabs from other parts of the Middle East began to emigrate to Israel (the Jews to escape religious persecution in Europe, and the Arabs to seek economic opportunities created by the Jews that were there building cities and businesses). Prior to about 1880, there were not that many people living in that area; there were some areas that were predominately Jewish, and some that were predominately Arab, but the majority of the land was unsettled and undeveloped.

The Arabs that lived in the area developed a national consciousness in the early 20th century. Prior to about 1920, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian."

Personally, I support the two state idea, with a country for the Palestinians. This was what they originally should have taken, instead of trying to "drive the Jews into the sea." However, they need some decent leadership, which they have never had, and that is unfortunate. Arafat had the chance but stupidly rejected it in 1999. The Palestinians could have had a state then as well.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
So in that case shouldn't the finger pointers be saying "Anti-Judaic" instead of "Anti-Semitic"? And also - do you think that it is really Judaism that the Arabs have a problem with - or is it "Zionism"? I think it is Zionism my friend.

To an extent I agree. Anti-semitism is more of a racial issue and as such even a Jew who is ethnically white northern european can be anti-semitic if you think about it. Racism is one thing, religious fundamentalism another.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I am BOTH Anti-Terrorist & Anti-Zionist because Zionism & Corruption (of Religion in this case) breeds Terrorism. Are you telling me that anyone on the planet can Convert - become a Jew & then have the right to "Return" to Israel?

I'll be honest I don't give a rats a** what religion anyone is, if they were born that way or if they converted. What I do care about is whether they are Muslim fundamentalist, Jewish fundamentalist or Christian fundamentalist they are a problem that the rest of the world has to deal with. Religion, in my opinion has no place at all in politics in any shape or form. Decisions, while considering the minority, should favour the majority. You can't please all the peoople all of the time.

I may not agree with the reasoning behind the creation of Israel but it exists, they and the rest of the world need to understand and accept this. Peace can be acheived if peace is wanted. And there lies he crux.

Those that have the ability to create and implement change - the power brokers - do not want peace.

A significant portion of modern Israelites are secular and just want to be free to go about their business. It is not their decision to wage a guerilla war with their muslim neighbours, but they do have to live with the consequences, it is these people who have to sit on the buses and wonder if the next person to get on will be carrying a bomb. It is their disillusioned youths that feel the need to express themselves through religious fervour and perpetuate the problem.

Just like the rest of us they have no control or say in the actions of the World's leaders or more importantly those that manipulate power for material gain. They cannot fight the Powers so they take it out on each other. In some cases the religious fervour is indoctrinated and a level of general ignorance encouraged (or enforced).

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Any real Religious Jew will tell you that the Israel in the Bible was never meant to be Thought of as an actual Physical State. That is like calling the "Kingdom of Heaven" an actual Physical State or Kingdom - thank God Jesus explicitly told us it wasn't. What if a Group of People Invaded Canada & took it over & then said "Our God/Religion says that we have a right to this Land"? What if that happened to a State of America? I am sure that us Americans would have a problem with this Scenario.

It did happen to an extent in America. The puritanical Christians chose American as its chosen land and the white northern europeans saw it as their pot of gold. Religion serves a very important purpose to those that have power and seek further profit - it paves their way. The history of the Americas is testament in itself.

The creation of Israel is no different, while the front was represented by the religous zealots at the rear were profiteers and Capitalist Imperialists eager to stake their claim. The British were supportive, and particularly Churchill because it was thought that it would be an anglo-centric state and that this would help maintain our interests in the Suez canal and the Persian Gulf. Other forces took over though.

Muslim fundamentalism in the middle-east too is in no small measure a result of British interference. The British completely shafted the Arabs. David Lean's great epic "Lawrence of Arabia" is a very good film but an honest depiction of the events it is not.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I know that there are numerous Moslem Extremist Terrorist groups in existence - they are Evil & this does not excuse their despicable actions - but dare I say that Israel has acted as a "Terrorist State" (i.e. the Premeditated Killing of Civilians) herself from time to time?

Israel has one of the worst records of human rights and conduct of war records of a "modern" state. You will find no argument from me. I do not support or condone Israel. I do not support or condone any act of violence. I personally view all violence as unnecessary - without exception. This not the time for any kind of emotional response. We need to be cold and calculating. What is the point of sapience if we don't use it?

There is no "good" reason for any of the conflict that exists today and we have all the means at our disposal (collectively) to end all suffering. If the leaders of the world were driven by a desire for peace instead of self-aggrandisement and financial gain then world peace would be a reality.

Pointing a finger in the general direction of Israel or the Zionists solves nothing - name and shame. Point to the specific individuals who are profiting from the death and misery of millions of people in every corner of the world. They don't give a rat's a** what colour or creed you are as long as you're making them money.

Rant over...

After watching and reading plenty about the subject there are a few things I would like to say en passant and then go about my merry way please.

The word Ashkenazi is the closest etymological relative to the term Nazi.

Einstein said that his education began once he left school.

Anyone who wants these discussions ended and tries to use the trump card "anti semite" is indeed a Zionist.

If anyone supports the state of Israel then they should also support giving north and south america back to the indigenous peoples and thats alot of stuff to pack so ya better get busy pilgrim!

Those who quickly jump to the conclusion that the Protocols of the learned elders of zion is nothing but debunked propaganda better grab themselves a copy and have themselves a good read because indeed the international bankers are mainly ashkenazi jews, are in control and pretty much everything written in the Protocols are going down almost perfectly.

Oh yes I have done my research and I do not buy it at all, did you know that the protocols are suppose to be a plagiurism of a copy of a forgery? mauhahaha hilarious....

The Neocons are Zionist puppets.

All this and I am not an anti semite, better think again my friend....

First of all, Israel is the historic home of the Jewish people from ancient times.

Oh you mean JUDAH/JUDEA, right? There was a split in the Tribes @ one point - they created two distinct regions - to the North = Israel (stretches into modern day Syria - Imagine that) & to the South = JUDAH/JUDEA. The split was over (Drum Roll Please...) the Interpretation & Practice of Judaism. The Judeans were very Strict & Literal Practitioners while the Israelites tended to mix in other "gods" into the worship (i.e. like from Babylon or Persia). BTW before it was "Palestine" or even "Judea/Israel" it was called CANAAN - that is the real name of the Ancient land.

Religion, in my opinion has no place at all in politics in any shape or form.

Too bad Religion IS Politics & Politics IS Religion! You have not realized that by now?

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Neopheus
Those who quickly jump to the conclusion that the Protocols of the learned elders of zion is nothing but debunked propaganda better grab themselves a copy and have themselves a good read because indeed the international bankers are mainly ashkenazi jews, are in control and pretty much everything written in the Protocols are going down almost perfectly.

Is has already been widely established that the Protocols are a plagiarism. I'm shocked that you claim to have researched it all and still maintain it is anything more than a nasty hoax typical of European anti-Semiticism. I can only conclude that you are somewhat obtuse.

Just because some of its elements are true, doesn't mean that it's all true. That is an atrociously simplistic way of looking at it. So the Jews excel at banking? Wow. That's a huge revelation, given that they've been doing it for hundreds of years longer than the originally anti-usury "Christian races".

Originally posted by Neopheus
The word Ashkenazi is the closest etymological relative to the term Nazi.

All this sentence demonstrates is your desperation to draw ridiculous parallels in order to reach bizarre conclusions.

Originally posted by Neopheus
All this and I am not an anti semite, better think again my friend....

I don't know whether you're an anti-semite, but you're most certainly deluded.

[edit on 25-9-2007 by Roark]

The jews did NOT deserve their own land. How dare we go in and take someone elses land from them just to fufill some sort of obligation to the Jewish people.
I don't care if they were there 2000 years before that the same could be said of immigrants, should i be able to go back to Italy and demand its my land because my family was from there??

Bad people need an excuse to be bad to deal with their own conscience. One common way to do this is to say my group is superior to yours. Some Jews claim to be chosen to rule the world, some Christians claim to be descendants of Jesus, some people claim to be of monarch blood lines. Watch revenge of the nerds, you will get the idea. No kidding. It is that simple.

Once you believe you are superior, it is no longer morally wrong to take power and your extra share of luxury, and cruelty becomes easier because the rest are like animals or some other label. Some Jews do this, many elites do this, the German, and Japanese did this in ww2. Some Christians do this and Some Islamic people do this.

I will call this group of power hungry people greedy people.

What I am saying is a greedy person can be any race or religion. But usually they find a rational that others believe also. This helps them support their own rationalization. So each greedy group gets its own little story to claim superiority.

The problem is people that do have this superiority thought are really nasty, because the death of suffering of 1000 people outside there group has the same value as the loss of one of them.

They do not respect all life and love their neighbor, they raise themselves up to a position above others that they do not deserve, at the cost of the rest of the people.

They also commonly make very bad decisions because they constantly underestimate the ability of people outside their group.

I think this belongs in this thread because it is more then what it is, but what the people in it are. A person with a superiority complex leading to low empathy.


[edit on 25-9-2007 by Redge777]