Jesus : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Dewey, all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of god. Yes, we're all supposed to strive for perfection, but if you think striving for it means we're going to achieve it fully here on earth, you're sadly mistaken. Is this what you believe?

reply to post by Deetermined

What do you practice or study?

I study the Bible.
Dispensationalism is a cult.
You might not think so if you grew up around members of it.
It may seem normal to you.
To people who haven't, it's not normal at all and seems pure heresy straight out of the mouth of Satan.
Doesn't it make you wonder that they have it all figured out to perfection, and that all over 200 years ago?

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'm not talking about others. I'm talking about you. What do you believe?

Do you believe in heaven? Do you believe in an afterlife? Do you somehow think we're all going to be perfected right here on earth and stay here? I haven't figured you out yet.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . if you think striving for it means we're going to achieve it fully here on earth, you're sadly mistaken.

OK, Great!
I'm sure you will be happy to quote the verse where it says that.
Of course I'm being sarcastic because there is no such verse, but your cult teaches it anyway, right?

reply to post by jmdewey60


No.

My cult believes that the old heaven and earth will pass away and be replaced with a new shiny combined one.

ETA: When I say heaven, I'm speaking of God's residence, not the Universe.

reply to post by Deetermined

Do you believe in an afterlife?

I believe that whatever the afterlife is, that we can't live it now, so there is no point in thinking about it when we have a life that still needs to be lived right now.
That is what the New Testament is about.
You might not think so because you have been convinced that the parts put in there to show that our current suffering for Christ will all be worthwhile, are what we are supposed to dwell on, when we haven't gotten to the end of our current struggles yet.
Here is what the Bible says about the afterlife. There will be someone on a throne and we will be happy when we see him.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

It is a process that takes levels and stages to acquirer.

You are sanctified when you accept God's sanctifying spirit, the spirit that does the perfecting, and nowhere does it say you are only glorified in the resurrection.
What you said was, to quote you again, "The catch here is we have to shed this carnal piece of flesh before that begins to happen." That is absolutely wrong.
Now you can quote the Old Testament all you want and go on about Israelite festivals but you aren't grasping the Christian message as given by the Apostles in the New Testament.
Jesus said, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
And that comes out that way in every translation.

Ok so let me get this straight, your claiming that a person can be totally transformed to perfection in this life? Do you mean to tell me that there are actually people right now living a perfect, sinless life? Please give some examples of who these people are I have never heard such a thing. In the verse you quoted I don't see a time limit of when one is to be or become perfect. Could it be on the other side of the grave maybe? Could it be that God in his sovereignty will resurrect everyone some to life and others to further torment viz (testing)? Does the bible state any specific time limits on the length of time God has to perfect what He has created? I am aware of the mainstream theology on hell but that doesn't make it true. Hell is translated from the words Gehenna, Tartarus, and Sheol. None of these words are defined as a place of never ending punishment. Two of them refer to a resting state for the dead and Gehenna was the garbage dump just outside Jerusalem where they burned the refuse from the city. They also threw the bodies of the less fortunate dead into the Gehenna fire to dispose of them.

My view upon this matter is kinda simple. People would love to have a ruler, to be guided by someone or something like that. It's been like this since the beginning of men, there is always someone telling other people what to do.

It would be easy just to have someone taking the burden of making choices for everyone and telling you whats right and whats wrong. But it doesn't work that way, we must make the choices and become better. People always say if God loves everyone, if Jesus is our ruler why do we have wars, death, famine, hate? All of that is created by men, it would be really great to have God or Jesus or another deity just appear and tell everyone to calm down and be good, right? That would be easier for every lazy person, since now everyone would only take orders and be nice because this God told you to be.

Reality is that everyone has the so called free of will, you do evil and then face the consequences. Most of the meaning of good and evil are only complete with the idea of an afterlife, of a judgement or something related.

I believe in the spiritism doctrine and by that we see that Jesus is the ruler of our world (not diminishing any other belief please I accept every religious system, this is just my view), but Jesus will not magically appear and tell the world what to do (actually he already did it once right? We can read it all around the world in the Bible, Gospels and etc). We must make the choices and become better, do not pass the burden of your choices to another person or God.

It is easy to say that we have all this issues on Earth because God does not interfere. I believe he does, but he cannot make you chose good or evil - that's up to you figure, he will help, but in the end the choice always is and always will be yours.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I understand now.

You believe in an afterlife with God but you have no idea where that it or what it will be like.

That's fine if you don't want to focus on it, but trying to convince someone why they should suffer for Christ without any explanation as to why and where it leads to probably won't appear too convincing to an unbeliever.

Originally posted by Taunos
It is easy to say that we have all this issues on Earth because God does not interfere. I believe he does, but he cannot make you chose good or evil - that's up to you figure, he will help, but in the end the choice always is and always will be yours.

edit on 28-2-2013 by Taunos because: (no reason given)

Exodus 4
21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
It appears to me that Pharaoh would have let the people go therefore God hardened his heart so that he would not let them go. This clearly shows that although Pharaoh's free will was inclined to let them go God changed Pharaoh's heart to serve His purpose. Jonah's free will led him away from Nineveh but God persuaded him through the 3 days in the fish, to go to Nineveh. These two servants of God did not willingly serve God but nonetheless served Him anyway against their own will.

Originally posted by stupid girl
reply to post by SubAce

 

I do not say this out-right very often, but what you have said is alarmingly wrong, incorrect and not Truth. What you have written is a stumbling block to the unlearned and I pray that no one is influenced by it lest you not only have to give an accounting of your careless words, but for the well-being of someone's soul as well.

An axe will be taken to all trees that bear rotten fruit, thus I suggest you fertilize and water deeply.

If you are stating you do not have faith in the good words of truth as found in the Holy Scriptures, I can understand that, and respect it. Yet they are truth:

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

And I do realize that faith is not the possession of everyone:

(2 Thessalonians 3:2) . . .for faith is not a possession of all people.

And even many who believe they understand scripture or who have belief in God do so but not according to accurate knowledge:

(Acts 3:17) . . .And now, brothers, I know that YOU acted in ignorance, just as YOUR rulers also did. . .

(1 Timothy 1:13) although formerly I was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy, because I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith.

If any of this is the case for anyone, that too is understandable. Anyone that is zealous for truth and right even when they are unknowingly doing and speaking falsehood should be forgiven, for they work with a lack of faith and are in ignorance. Our prayer is that God opens your mind and heart, if it is indeed sincere to understand these beautiful teachings of truth from the Bible.

Yet only those whom Jehovah wishes are able to comprehend these things, and no one acting wickedly will have any understanding. Only those whose hearts are rightly disposed for everlasting life:

(Daniel 12:10) . . .And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.

(Matthew 13:19, 20) . . .Where anyone hears the word of the kingdom but does not get the sense of it, the wicked one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart; this is the one sown alongside the road.

(Acts 13:48) . . ., and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

In the verse you quoted I don't see a time limit of when one is to be or become perfect. Could it be on the other side of the grave maybe?

Jesus was talking about loving your enemies. I don't think you will have enemies in heaven.

Do you mean to tell me that there are actually people right now living a perfect, sinless life? Please give some examples of who these people are I have never heard such a thing.

What is translated as 'perfect' is the Greek word teleos, which means reaching your goal. You reach your goal at the completion of your life, so by definition, people aren't going around being perfect so much as being perfected with perfection close at hand.
I quoted the verses on holiness, well, there's more verses that say you traded your sinful lives for sanctification, the idea being of course that you do not sin. Paul tells his followers, "Don't sin."
That means you are not actively engaged in a lifestyle of sin. We can't exactly stop being human, so we have human traits that are not quite up to par with God's but that is what gets transformed along with our corruptible bodies.

None of these words are defined as a place of never ending punishment.

They are defined as such by their context.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


Hi mplsfitter539, I can't discuss with the passages and I'll will not disagree with anything, but I believe that most of it are presented in the form of allegories and regarding those two particular cases I believe that God manifested and guided those two servants through intuition, he did not remove their free will.

That's my point, I didn't say that we are immune to influences of the spiritual world (or any form of influence you can consider true), but in the end it is always your choice. I can't argue with the Bible or the passages since most of it depends on how you picture that situation, how you understands it.

Anyway, I'm glad to have this conversation. Thanks for the reply

reply to post by Taunos

We must make the choices and become better . . .

That's what grace is for, it is the gift from God to everyone so that they have something that they can choose, no matter what their background is. They don't necessarily have to come from a particular type of religious background.
Lots of the early converts to Christianity came from pagan or practically no religion.

reply to post by Deetermined

You believe in an afterlife with God but you have no idea where that it or what it will be like.

Your cult apparently believes in just making one up in order to seem smart and have all the answers, even if they are all wrong.
That's how a cult works. That way they can hand you a great big long list of things to believe in and you do because of your faith in the cult.
That's what a cult is, you believe in them.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

What do you practice or study?

I study the Bible.
Dispensationalism is a cult.
You might not think so if you grew up around members of it.
It may seem normal to you.
To people who haven't, it's not normal at all and seems pure heresy straight out of the mouth of Satan.
Doesn't it make you wonder that they have it all figured out to perfection, and that all over 200 years ago?

And to your same point, I have studied the bible and I find CHRISTIANITY to be a cult. (any form).

You must see that your Christianity to his Dispensationalism is what My agnosticism is to your Christianity.

To me its a crazy cult, just like you believe his is.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

You believe in an afterlife with God but you have no idea where that it or what it will be like.

Your cult apparently believes in just making one up in order to seem smart and have all the answers, even if they are all wrong.
That's how a cult works. That way they can hand you a great big long list of things to believe in and you do because of your faith in the cult.
That's what a cult is, you believe in them.

It's in the Bible, Dewey, and that's what I believe and go by.

So, if going straight by the Bible makes me an occultist, I guess that makes you one too, since that's what you claim you use.

I'm not going to be as rude as you are. I'm actually going to give you some tips because sometimes it can be difficult to decipher when the Bible is talking about the Millennial period vs. heaven.

If you read anything in the Bible that sounds like heaven and peace, but it mentions that it is on earth, the Bible is talking about the Millennial period on earth, not heaven.

If it mentions that the people are multiplying, walk with canes, or they're old and they are mixed in with a bunch of young kids and babes, it's talking about the Millennium, not heaven.

If it says that Jesus is ruling with an "iron fist" and striking down nations, it's talking about the Millennium, not heaven.

If it says that people will reach a certain age and then die, it's talking about the Millennium.

If it says anything about God's people inheriting the land or living in the land promised to them by God, it's talking about the Millennium.

The new heaven/earth isn't brought down from above until the Millennium is over.

reply to post by SubAce

Anyone that is zealous for truth and right even when they are unknowingly doing and speaking falsehood should be forgiven, for they work with a lack of faith and are in ignorance.

Stupid Girl's a pretty devout Christian as far as I can tell, so I wouldn't blame a difference of interpretation of scripture on "lack of faith and ignorance". This is where it goes wrong. I hope we can all debate the interpretation of scripture without saying that anyone lacks faith, is ignorant, or belongs to a cult.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by SubAce

 

Anyone that is zealous for truth and right even when they are unknowingly doing and speaking falsehood should be forgiven, for they work with a lack of faith and are in ignorance.

Stupid Girl's a pretty devout Christian as far as I can tell, so I wouldn't blame a difference of interpretation of scripture on "lack of faith and ignorance". This is where it goes wrong. I hope we can all debate the interpretation of scripture without saying that anyone lacks faith, is ignorant, or belongs to a cult.

When Paul stated that he lacked faith, and was ignorant, he was acknowledging that while he did indeed have a zeal for God, as a pharisee, although he thought he was right, and all the teaching he was given gave him truth, he later realized that he was wrong.

Many today are the same:

(Romans 10:2) . . .For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge;

One can totally believe they are right, as Paul did. He had righteous indignation against Jesus' followers and hounded them, because they were apostates of the Jewish faith, which owned the truth. Anyone confessing Jesus had to be done away with. Yet later he realized how wrong he was.

As the poster admitted, everyone's fruits are born witness to. And all rotten fruit will be destroyed. By their fruits you will recognize them.

Christendom's fruit has been rotten to the core. She has been exposed for who she is, and will continue to be until she is done away with.

While many are mislead by the clergy of Christendom, referred to in the scripture as the "man of lawlessness" many God-loving people still reside within her grasp. They are innocent and need to learn the truth:

(Matthew 7:21-23) . . .“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

A Christian loves God's word. Even if it is revealed to them that what they have been taught is wrong, their love of God and his word will lead them to humbly accept his truth and change.

That is where God's word reveals what the heart is:

(Hebrews 4:12) For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.

It is powerful and is able to cut into the very marrow, and reveal the intentions of a person's heart. When scripture is read how does one react? Do they reject it, or do they accept it as it truthfully is, the word of God:

(1 Thessalonians 2:13) . . .you accepted it, not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God. . .

Honest-hearted ones love the truth, and love God's word. For it is alive and exerts power. If one is acting in unknowing ignorance of truth, that is understandable. Yet if their heart is inclined to righteousness and right, how will they react when God's word is used to readjust them? For God's wisdom is given to all whom ask for it, and without reproach:

(James 1:5) . . .So, if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him.

reply to post by SubAce

It is powerful and is able to cut into the very marrow, and reveal the intentions of a person's heart. When scripture is read how does one react? Do they reject it, or do they accept it as it truthfully is, the word of God:

I happen to think that Stupid Girl accepts God's word as absolute truth based on past posting history, but her interpretation of it is different that yours. Now, I'm not exactly sure what all she had a problem with, so I'll let her speak for herself, but let me just give you an example of my interpretation.

When you mentioned that Satan had all of the power in this world because he was able to offer the kingdoms and nations to Christ if he worshiped him, I totally disagreed. Satan has a habit of lying. When he told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree of knowledge that would not die, he lied. The situation between Satan and Christ was no different.

If you're a Jehovah's Witness and believe that the earth as we know it today is going to remain the same in physical terms forever and ever, I disagree. It will be burned up and new combined heaven/earth will be set in it's place.

These are just a couple of examples of differences in interpretation of scripture that I'm sure we probably have. Does that make me any less of a believer in God, Jesus Christ and the power of God's Word? Absolutely not.