Jesus : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
-Matthew 28:18

These are the words that Jesus spoke when he appeared to the 11 disciples after his resurrection.

Being given authority over the earth, is obviously a big deal. So if the Bible tells us Jesus was given authority over heaven and earth, then its as good as saying Jesus started ruling the world.

If Jesus began ruling the world, then the world should have transformed into a peaceful utopia and we would have been born in a perfect world under Jesus' rule and authority. Instead we see that the world is still plagued with wars, starvation, disease, poverty, corruption, godlessness etc... despite being under Jesus' authority. Why is that so?

So what exactly did Jesus mean when he said "all authority in heaven and on earth" had been given to him? Did he mean that he has authority over the earth, but still lets evil exist? Or is there some stipulation that allows evil to prevail in this world, even under Jesus authority?

This problem of a corrupt world even under Jesus' authority makes the Bibles resurrection story rather hard to believe.

Discuss.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I must say.. I LOVE this topic and am heading to my microwave right now to make a fresh batch of popcorn to watch the upcoming fireworks ensue.

*be prepared for - freewill vs. robots arguments, holy trinity stuff, and its a test stuff....


kudos for your argument.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Jesus was given Mastery over the physical and the spiritual world... which was why he could perform the "miracles" he did...

Though HE was not of this world...

John 8

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Sounds like jesus thought he was running a dictatorship.

OP ~ would you mind highlighting a hypothetical scenario which would have satisfied that statement accordingly, in your estimation?

Originally posted by followtheevidence
OP ~ would you mind highlighting a hypothetical scenario which would have satisfied that statement accordingly, in your estimation?

I think the OP is pretty self explanatory. However not to speak for him but for arguments sake.

Why was every atrocity and death in WW2 allowed to happen in a world protected by Jesus love?

reply to post by mrperplexed


Do you believe that if you can't think of a reason that a reason does not exist?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Matthew 28:18 - 20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The King James Version is worded a little different. Power in earth doesn't mean he actively rules, rather that he now has the power to save you should he desire to do so, and that he has the power in heaven to grant you admission. It also appears that his disciples couldn't baptize the common man until after Jesus received this power.

or

The government you live under has authority over you and everyone else within their borders, and yet some people still refuse to accept that authority. Those people, if caught, are punished by whatever means that government sees fit, and yet it doesn't always stop them from doing whatever they want. Same would go for Jesus, there are consequences for not obeying his laws, or rather there is one consequence for any transgression. Should you not live according to his laws he will abandon you here to suffer and die. Jesus also left it up to his disciples to teach us those rules so that we can follow them, however I believe that the rules have become so corrupted since that not a single person knows the whole of Jesus's law. If you were to be able to figure out what that is and live according to those laws then you will not have to suffer the pain of death. I for one have given up on this religion due to the lack of being able to know what Jesus's laws truly are, as i have read many places in the bible where he tells his disciples laws which are never written in the bible only spoken of (well in my opinion have most likely been removed later on)

If you ask me the real question here is if he is with his disciples always, even to the end of the world, does that mean his disciples are living here till the end? If true then who and where are they in these times. But that might be off topic a little.

Maybe this is what jesus wants. Maybe there is a plan and a method to the madness.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Excellent OP!

The Bible takes a lot of liberties with what Jesus said and did after his "supposed death and resurrection!"

When Jesus was in the desert, during his vision quest, we're told, (although there were no witnesses, and I can't really picture that Jesus would go bragging to his buddies how he kick some Satan arse) that Satan offered Jesus his domain, all of the Earth, if he would bow to him. Jesus turned Satan's offer down.

Both, Jesus' "temptation" and his "resurrection" are incredibly flawed stories. If Jesus was God, how could he have been in a position of temptation? If Jesus was God, how could he have "sacrificed" anything? If Jesus is "in charge" why is there still so much oppression of the innocent?

I can only believe that the story of Jesus being "God" or even the son of "God", born of a virgin, died for the sins of the world and resurrected as the "ruler of the world" is false. Either that, or, Jesus failed in his mission and Satan won. Personally, I reject the story as mere mythology.

Scorpie

From the word in the Great Commission which you translate as "power" we are reminded that Jesus appears to be alluding to the grant of dominion that is described in Daniel 7: 13-14.

As the visions during the night continued, I saw, coming with the clouds of heaven, one like a son of man. When he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented before him, he received dominion, splendor, and kingship; all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed.

Obviously, the grant will not expire, but the earthly realization of the dominion will begin after it has been received, that is, sometime in the future. That future timing restates Jesus' view as it is presented throughout the Gospels, including before he was killed.

That reading would also comport with the rest of the Great Commission, which you tossed away. Jesus is explaining to the men who couldn't stay awake to pray with him and then deserted him that they need to get their acts together to prepare for and usher in the age of Jesus' global and temporal power. This remains a work in progress, as you observe.

Since it is the sort of thing Jesus would say whether in the flesh or in a vision, what he said is irrelevant to whether the encounter occurred in the flesh or in a vision. Whatever you believe about the Resurrection, then, you would presumably believe equally confidently with or without this specific datum.

Your fractured fairy tale version of the Bible provides good, if not strenuous, exercise for an agnostic like me, to confirm what various New Testament sayings actually mean, as opposed to what, with a little editing and a lot of spin, they can be made to sound like. I don't aspire to "argue for" Christian churches, but I do aspire that when I criticize them, I criticize them for what they actually teach, not something that if they taught it, then they would be a fringe movement.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The bible also claims that Satan is the god of this world, so if Jesus has the authority over the world then he must be satan. Jesus has NO authority as WE have FREE-WILL.

reply to post by eight bits

if not strenuous, exercise for an agnostic like me, to confirm what various New Testament sayings actually mean,

So now agnostics like you.... are to confirm what New Testament sayings actually mean?
At best you have an opinion from an agnostic perspective. You are entitled to it, but I am looking for a theological discussion on the issue that I have presented.

we are reminded that Jesus appears to be alluding to the grant of dominion that is described in Daniel 7: 13-14.

Eh, why do you bring up Daniel? Didn't you say
"Daniel is a fictional, apocalyptic work." in this post? Seems to me you are trying to explain the account of Matthew, (which you haven't dismissed as fictional yet )with a book that you say is fictional.

Your fractured fairy tale version of the Bible provides good,

My "fractured fairy tale version of the Bible"... are direct quotes from the Bible.... about Jesus being given "authority" over the heavens and the earth.

I also raised a couple of simple questions-
Did he mean that he has authority over the earth, but still lets evil exist?
Or is there some stipulation that allows evil to prevail in this world, even under Jesus authority?

as opposed to what, with a little editing and a lot of spin, they can be made to sound like.

Like agnostics/atheists don't have their own kind of spins and editing.
Also, point out what part of the OP, according to you, comprises of "editing" and "spin", if you intended to convey that it contains edits and spins.

Funny, I always thought you were a Christian. Either way, its a good thing you identified yourself as an agnostic.

reply to post by followtheevidence

OP ~ would you mind highlighting a hypothetical scenario which would have satisfied that statement accordingly, in your estimation?

Of the top of my head... world peace... an end to starvation and disease... everybody gets along in a planet under Jesus' authority.

Its strange that Jesus says he has been given authority over heaven and earth, but our world is still plagued by problems. It doesn't add up.

reply to post by smithjustinb

Maybe this is what jesus wants. Maybe there is a plan and a method to the madness.

"Its all part of a plan" is fair enough... but its not exactly an answer.

reply to post by MasterOfTheDamned

The King James Version is worded a little different. Power in earth doesn't mean he actively rules, rather that he now has the power to save you should he desire to do so, and that he has the power in heaven to grant you admission. It also appears that his disciples couldn't baptize the common man until after Jesus received this power.

The Greek word for "authority" used in that Matthew 28:18 is exousia

It has varying definitions, but in Matthew 28:18, it means

4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed (generally translated authority)
source

Its also the same word used in the verse about the "authority" that the beast was given. Basically meaning total control and power.... power of rule or government

Except here, we see Jesus has been given total power of rule or government over heaven and earth... and yet he does nothing about it... and evil still prevails.

That is my question.. why?

Scorpie

First, my apologies to you and to the community for misquoting you as translating a Greek word as "power" when you had actually translated it as "authority."

So now agnostics like you.... are to confirm what New Testament sayings actually mean?

Why yes. You did notice that what you quoted is edited from what is called "The Great Commission." That invites everybody to examine the message of Jesus. I am happy to accept Jesus' invitation. What's it to you?

At best you have an opinion

Yes, that is what gets posted at ATS. It's a discussion board, a place where opinions are found.

Eh, why do you bring up Daniel? Didn't you say "Daniel is a fictional, apocalyptic work." in this post? Seems to me you are trying to explain the account of Matthew, (which you haven't dismissed as fictional yet )with a book that you say is fictional.

The question you placed before the community concerned the meaning of something Jesus is reported to have said. What you cherrypicked from the Great Commission alludes to Daniel. The allusion Jesus made has nothing to do with whether or not Daniel is fictional. The book appears in the Jewish canon, whose formal enactment occurred in the Second Century, and is plainly labeled in that canon as literary and not prophetic. So what?

Preachers, of which Jesus was one, use fictional allusions all the time, as might any other users of language. Here's an instance from a modern professional preacher:

A sermon illustration has to be obvious and simple, if not self-evident. For instance, the idea of the constant oppression of continual darkness clicked in the minds of my children when I likened such darkness to Narnia where it is "always winter, but never Christmas" (C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe).

www.opc.org...

My "fractured fairy tale version of the Bible"... are direct quotes from the Bible.... about Jesus being given "authority" over the heavens and the earth.

Yes, and the practical effect of the giving will take hold after the giving, hence the rest of the speech, which you tossed away.

Like agnostics/atheists don't have their own kind of spins and editing.

What's an agnostic forward slash atheist? How does a pot making up some kette to call black help the sooty pot's case?

Also, point out what part of the OP, according to you, comprises of "editing" and "spin", if you intended to convey that it contains edits and spins.

You omitted the rest of the Great Commission while offering your interpretation of a sentence within the Great Commission. That's editing, to use a charitable term for cherry picking. You tossed off a "'Hail, Mary' pass" that this sentence has something to do with whether or not Jesus resurrected. That's spin.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So what exactly did Jesus mean when he said "all authority in heaven and on earth" had been given to him?

It means that Jesus is now god.
The old "god of this world" has fallen, and been replaced, with the practical application being that we no longer are obligated to worship or serve that god.
We now have a better standard to live by rather than having to show up at a temple and cut the throat of some sacrificial animal.
We can become better, and so make the world better, through our new god in this new age that he has ushered in.
Any gripes or complaints should be lodged against our own-selves, and not towards God, thank you very much.
All means are at our disposal, meaning Jesus has opened the line of communication for us between ourselves, and God, to have the spirit of God given to us to empower us to be righteous people.
If we don't take advantage of it, it is our own fault, and are to blame, not God and Jesus.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Maybe this is what jesus wants. Maybe there is a plan and a method to the madness.

"Its all part of a plan" is fair enough... but its not exactly an answer.

What you see as "evil" is just the body of christ being the body of christ. And if you believe what the Bible says in its entirety, which I know you don't, we are the body of christ and each one of us is a member of this body like an arm and a leg. Of course the master fractal representation of the most high has authority over the subordinate fractal (made in image) representations of the most high. That doesn't make any of us perfect nor absolute, as we are not,individually, the entire constituent of the most high.

reply to post by eight bits

Yes, that is what gets posted at ATS. It's a discussion board, a place where opinions are found.

Fair enough.
And posters on discussion boards get to choose who they respond to.

I had mistaken you for a Christian.... going by your detailed replies to my threads on various religious subjects. My bad, I guess.

The problem with theists discussing religious matters with non-theists is that we are never on the same platform. Thats because, I would first need to convince you that certain religious concepts are real before getting down to the details of it.

For example, do you think I can discuss heaven and hell with you, if you don't even believe in the basic premises of an afterlife.. or heaven and hell? I think not.