Jesus : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I thought there would be a footnote so I checked the English translation of the first Bible, St. Jerome's Latin
Vulgate. Latin was the common language of the time. The English translation is the Douay- Rheims Bible.

www.drbo.org...

Mathew 28:18
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

18] All power: See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ's church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

It says that there is a "book of the lamb" that has apparently always been around.
I missed the part where it says the lamb is Jesus.
Maybe you can point out where it says that.

John 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36

36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

reply to post by Deetermined

John 1:29
John 1:36

That's from the Greek word, amnos, also found in

Acts 8:32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and like a lamb silent before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth.

1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.

Revelation does not use that word but uses arnion, which means a little lamb, apparently too young to be slaughtered, especially as a sacrifice.
So the connotation is that the "lamb" referred to in Revelation was murdered rather than sacrificed.
Which leads me to the conclusion I already mentioned.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Dewey, a lamb is a lamb.

All lambs are young, otherwise they'd be referred to as sheep.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that lambs weren't used as sacrifices because they were too young.

reply to post by Deetermined

Dewey, a lamb is a lamb.

In English, maybe.
Take that up with the people who make Lexicons.

All lambs are young, otherwise they'd be referred to as sheep.

You probably don't either herd sheep, or live where they raise them in abundance. The cultural environment of the New Testament was sheep intensive, so they would have had a more highly defined terminology for them.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that lambs weren't used as sacrifices because they were too young.

Revelation does not say anything about a sacrifice but says in 5:12
all of whom were singing in a loud voice: “Worthy is the lamb who was killed to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and praise!”
(or slaughtered)
The literary motif being one of combat.

Exodus 12:4c-5a says,
according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old.

Here the word for a male lamb is, aren, in the Greek version of the old testament.
The "lamb" of Revelation is not gender specific, so could be either male or female.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

Revelation does not say anything about a sacrifice but says in 5:12
all of whom were singing in a loud voice: “Worthy is the lamb who was killed to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and praise!”
(or slaughtered)

If you read the prior verses in Revelation 5, it's very clear who these verses are talking about and why the Lamb was killed. It was a sacrifice.

Revelation 5:5-9

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood . . .

By figuratively doing battle against the enemy, that which causes chaos, the legendary cosmic dragon from the abyss.
The fight, though lost temporarily with a trip to hell, where instead of being devoured, devours death, thus redeeming people from throughout the world.
By this heroic and devout act, "the lamb" demonstrates its worthiness to open the tablets of time, that foretell future events.
That would be the mythic symbolism, but in practical terms it is resisting the demands of a pagan society to worship what they consider idols and false gods, even to the point of being killed for their obstinacy.
So then the church of martyrs marches forward into history.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'm not sure what your point is as it didn't make any sense, but it's obvious that the one that was slain in order to redeem us to God by his blood was Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . it's obvious that the one that was slain ... was Jesus.

Your original claim was that because Revelation says "the throne of God and of the lamb" that it means the lamb is God.
Then going from that, you further claim that the lamb is Jesus.
So the corollary apparently is that Jesus and God are the same person.
I don't think that you have sufficiently substantiated your claims in order to support your proposed corollary.
I think that you are substituting in the place of reasoned conclusions, slogans taught to you in your cult meetings.

Originally posted by colbe
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

I thought there would be a footnote so I checked the English translation of the first Bible, St. Jerome's Latin
Vulgate. Latin was the common language of the time. The English translation is the Douay- Rheims Bible.

www.drbo.org...

Mathew 28:18
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

Thank you for this particular translation. It actually seems more accurate given my understanding of Jesus' mastery of the esoteric processes that he was initiating his disciples in. (See my previous post on the bottom of the prior page.)

Given his blessing transmission of his disciples in the Indivisible Light above the body-mind, his power (rather than authority) over the realms of heaven (the subtle dimension) and earth (the gross physical dimension) fits better as part of the description of what he mastered and revealed to his closest ones.

A couple more comments on the "little lambs" theme:
In John, Jesus asks Peter to feed his lambs, using the same Greek as the John of Revelation, referring to the Christian community .
In Luke, the same word is used when Jesus sends out his disciples along with 72 others, he describes them as little lambs among the wolves.
So, there is examples where when the word used in Revelation is found in other places in the New Testament, it is referring to the believers who are like baby lambs.
Another observation I would like to add is that the slain lamb of Revelation 5 is not a normal lamb, for one thing having seven eyes, where I could easily imagine that it signifies the totality of those considered as the little lambs who are being crushed under the talons of the beast.
And another thing, those who have "washed their robes in the blood of the lamb" basically were baptized in their own blood as they were being torn to pieces by wild animals for the amusement of the Romans in the Colosseum.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Revelation 5

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Yet you continue to overlook the fact that there was only ONE "Lamb" that "redeemed US to God by thy blood" from every people and nation.

The blood of the saints didn't redeem all of us to God.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . there was only ONE "Lamb" that "redeemed US to God . . .

There's one symbolic figure that represents the whole, "out of every nation".

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by colbe
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

I thought there would be a footnote so I checked the English translation of the first Bible, St. Jerome's Latin
Vulgate. Latin was the common language of the time. The English translation is the Douay- Rheims Bible.

www.drbo.org...

Mathew 28:18
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

Thank you for this particular translation. It actually seems more accurate given my understanding of Jesus' mastery of the esoteric processes that he was initiating his disciples in. (See my previous post on the bottom of the prior page.)

Given his blessing transmission of his disciples in the Indivisible Light above the body-mind, his power (rather than authority) over the realms of heaven (the subtle dimension) and earth (the gross physical dimension) fits better as part of the description of what he mastered and revealed to his closest ones.

edit on 4-3-2013 by bb23108 because:

bb,

Hi, thanks! I can't speak Latin, my dear mother could. This is the closest I can come to the words of Our
Lord.

It often happens, when people come up with questions about Gospel and Old Testament verses, there is
usually a footnote in the Douay-Rheims Bible. The footnotes help you and me understand why the Church teaches what she does.

www.drbo.org...

I would purchase a DR Bible, a paperback is not as expensive. We aren't going to have the Internet forever. It is
prophesied.


God bless you,


colbe

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Deetermined

 

. . . there was only ONE "Lamb" that "redeemed US to God . . .

There's one symbolic figure that represents the whole, "out of every nation".

jim,

I haven't talked to you for a long time, hello. Think about this, the Lamb of God Jesus Christ is the New
Covenant Passover Lamb. Christians agree. No problem. Things are always made greater in the New
Covenant, another agreement. In the Old Covenant what did they do with the Passover Lamb after it
was sacrificed? They consumed it. We do the same in the New Covenant. We consume God though!!!
Jesus Christ, the risen Christ is fully present in the most Holy Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity.

How humble of God to come to us this way. Remember, remember for the times ahead, the Eucharist
is supernatural. God can do anything.

reply to post by colbe

Think about this, the Lamb of God Jesus Christ is the New Covenant Passover Lamb. Christians agree. No problem. Things are always made greater in the New Covenant, another agreement. In the Old Covenant what did they do with the Passover Lamb after it was sacrificed? They consumed it. We do the same in the New Covenant. We consume God though!!!
Jesus Christ, the risen Christ is fully present in the most Holy Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity.
How humble of God to come to us this way. Remember, remember for the times ahead, the Eucharist
is supernatural. God can do anything.

Thanks for giving me something to disagree with so Dee doesn't feel picked on. I have to say I disagree with you except the Passover part. Of course that is figurative language, not meant to be taken literally.
If you read the Anchor Bible commentary on Revelation, it says there is no reason to assume the Lamb character is Jesus.
It seems to be an accepted practice for writers to think the lamb is Jesus but it is just something people do, without any comment on why, they just take the simple, unthinking approach since apparently not too many people are willing to buck the trend.
Funny that you would find agreement with NOTurTypical on the New Covenant thing, the eating of the sacrament.
I have the book, Mark: Hermeneia, by Yarbro Collins. I'll take a look at that, to see what she says about Mark 14:12-26.

As far as I have come to understand through intepretations of the Old Testament it is said that God created the Universe and the angels who had no sexuality therefore they could not reproduce but was given free will for He wanted all beings perfect and just. He then proceeded to create Earth and Man in his own image and likeness and just like the angels He made Man perfect by blessing Man with free will and the right to choose. However, God wished that Man, in his likeness would be granted the blessing of experiencing creation, thus He gave Man sexuality and created Eve: so there we have Adam (men) and Eve (women) and He told them that they had dominion over all the animals of the Earth and would freely choose which food to eat but He warned them from eating from the tree of knowledge for then they would surely die; not instantly but they would learn of pain, decease, betrayal, injustice, death and suffering.
Lucifer, who by then had chosen to rebell against God and saw himself as a God, who already knew of the universal balance and had gained followers in the army of the angels, appeared before Eve and pursuaded her to eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge; which she did and so did Adam and they knew of embarresement and selfinsecurity (if there is such a word) and covered their genitals with leafs.
God then came down unto Earth and wanted to behold his beautiful creation and was told that Adam and Eve had eaten from the fruit of the tree of knowledge and were tainted and had to endure suffering thereafter.

He was so furious by Lucifer's selfish act and knew what the consequences would be; for all the children of Adam and Eve would now be tainted too, so during Lucifers' uprising He defeated him and sent him down to Earth with his fallen angels and so Lucifer became Satan and from that day Satan has been causing chaos here on Earth through his unholy influence ever since and so the story goes.

Jesus was born as the embodiment of God, who came to heal and cleanse the world from sins and darkness but, free will is still in the works and well, you know the story.

According to the revelations, now is also the time when Jesus Christ, the son of God shall return and in the final days of the final battle in the war between God and Satan, shall He defeat Satan once and for all.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I have the book, Mark: Hermeneia, by Yarbro Collins. I'll take a look at that, to see what she says about Mark 14:12-26.

Since I did read at least the commentary on those verses, in Collins' book, I should post some thoughts I have regarding that.
Seems the important part of the Passover analogy for Jesus' upcoming death at the hands of 'The Jews', is the "spotless" part, where Jesus is playing the part of the 'suffering servant' of Isaiah 53, who, though did nothing wrong himself, suffered, being counted among the wicked.
It wasn't a 'sacrifice' proper, as in being offered up by someone else for sins, so much as an example of someone dying in the place of people who probably really deserved it rather than him.
There is a giving of thanks and praise to God in Jesus' interaction with the cup and bread and the disciples, but no indication that he was ordaining a liturgy by doing so.
The "covenant" part of Jesus' sayings from that event recorded in Mark is a reference to the Prophet's expectation of a new covenant, and he was talking about his own upcoming sacrifice, rather than to what they were literally consuming during the meal.

reply to post by ABeing

According to the revelations, now is also the time when Jesus Christ, the son of God shall return and in the final days of the final battle in the war between God and Satan, shall He defeat Satan once and for all.

Any reason in particular that makes you feel that this is going to happen right now?
Just wondering what it is exactly that makes you think that.
Is there some sort of big shift in the balance of power, globally, that makes you think there is an inevitable conflict, where it is clear-cut who is "bad" and who is "good"?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Dewey, a lamb is a lamb.

All lambs are young, otherwise they'd be referred to as sheep.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that lambs weren't used as sacrifices because they were too young.

LMAO

Sorry Dewey, but she just served a big 'ol plate of BOOYAH.

That was awesome. I will now return to quietly lurk & observe.

As you were.....