Cardinal Keith O'Brien steps down as Archbishop

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by truejew

 

I'm aware there's a big difference between one God and three gods...but you KNOW I'm not talking about three gods, you KNOW I'm talking about the one God.

The trinity is three gods in unity.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

My statement is compatible with the truth. Now, dear theology scholar, please explain to me what the doctrine of the Trinity is since I'm clearly dense and not understanding it (even though I was raised in the religion that preaches it). Then try to tell me how you're saying toe-may-toe while I'm saying toe-mah-toe and how they're not the same thing at all, really.

Trinitarians teach that the Father was not manifest in the flesh.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Why are those words considered to be questionable? They are part of Scripture, and the New Testament given to us to follow in the wake of Christ dying for our sins. You seem to rely heavily on Scripture but when presented with this bit that you don't like, you call it questionable? Who's questioning it other than you??

"It has been customary to trace the institution of the practice (of baptism) to the words of Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19. But the authenticity of this passage has been challenged on historical as well as on textual grounds. It must be acknowledged that the formula of the threefold name, which is here enjoined, does not appear to have been employed by the primitive Church, which, so far as our information goes, baptized 'in' or 'into the name of Jesus' (or 'Jesus Christ' or Lord Jesus': Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 1 Cor. 1:13, 15) (The Dictionary of the Bible, 1947, page 83).

"A whole group of exegetes and critics have recognized that the opening declaration of Matt. 28:18 demands a Christological statement to follow it: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me" leads us to expect as a consequence, "Go and make disciples unto Me among all the nations, baptising them in My name, teaching them to observe all things I commanded you." In fact, the first and third clauses have that significance: it looks as thought the second clause has been modified from a Christological to a Trinitarian formula in the interests of the liturgical tradition" (G.R. Beasley-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1962, pg. 83).

reply to post by truejew


You do realize that the way you insist on splitting hairs and pointing out every little thing that you think is wrong...is exactly what drives people AWAY from being Christians? It's divisive and it's arrogant and it isn't a true promotion of Christian ideals or ways.

Your average layperson would hear you or someone like you talking about Trinitarianism being this and that and whatever, and hypocritically picking apart verses from the Scripture (which are supposedly supposed to be the Word of God, PERIOD, no questions asked in Christianity), and they would either completely tune out from what you're saying or just not wanna deal with the headache of trying to even understand Christianity by your definition.

Yet again, you're not exactly promoting something that would contribute to the salvation of lost souls. You are simply bickering and arguing your point and semantics when the Bible (which, apparently, you claim is the undeniable Word of God but then proceed to question and offer outdated criticisms of) tells us not to argue "opinion" but to simply accept each other, even if when we may not be getting it right but we're still TRYING to.

I already listed this verse for you in a previous post in response to you:
"Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion." Romans 14:1

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing. If you think Trinitarians have it wrong, then good for you, you're entitled to that opinion...but they are trying their best with the tools they've been given to seek out God and have a spiritual relationship with him and be saved through Christ...the Word of God tells us that you do not argue with them over their differences of opinion but accept them as your brothers and sisters through Christ, even if you believe them to be weak in faith because it doesn't quite match how you think it should be.

Not to be argumentative or take sides, just sharing these two passages:

Galatians 1:6-10

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! 10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Something to address those who add, change, or take away from God's word:

Revelation 22:18-19

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

These passages illustrate that there are people who, even since the earliest days of the church, have striven to bend or manipulate the faithful to serve their own purposes. We are further instructed to be on guard against this.

I do not believe that all who are led astray are evil and should be condemned. This would be unjust. However, the continuation of questionable teachings and practices serves what purpose? Would we be acting as honest champions of the faith?

reply to post by jcutler12888


Romans 14 is speaking of Christians who are weak in faith, not pagans without faith going around teaching false doctrine.

Originally posted by KyrieEleison

I do not believe that all who are led astray are evil and should be condemned. This would be unjust. However, the continuation of questionable teachings and practices serves what purpose? Would we be acting as honest champions of the faith?

Correct. I preach against false doctrine and those who preach the false doctrines as the apostles did and any minister should. Those who follow them in error are free to come learn, come out from among them and be separate.

The harsh words of Jesus were directed to the Pharisees, while he simply taught those under the Pharisees. What He taught those under the Pharisees was not to continue in the ways of the Pharisees, but to take up their cross and follow Him.

American cardinals who gave daily press conference in Rome, cancel further media appearance.

Vatican City, 6 March (AKI) - The Vatican on Wednesday declined to comment on the cancellation Wednesday by US cardinals gathered in Rome of their daily pre-conclave press-conference. "The College of Cardinals is imposing on itself an increasing degree of reserve as they attend pre-conclave meetings," he added.
The election of a pope is conducted in conditions of secrecy unique in the modern world and the threat of excommunication hangs over anyone tempted to break this silence.
During the conclave, the cardinals must reside within the Vatican and are not permitted any contact with the outside world.

German cardinal Kasper asked for transparency www.news24.com...

"We need a new way of governing the church. A more horizontal government. The Curia must be revolutionised," German Cardinal Walter Kasper said in an interview with La Repubblica daily, referring to the Vatican's bickering governing body.
"I think the Curia in general, beyond whatever emerges from Vatileaks, needs to be revolutionised. And as well as the word reform, there must be a second: transparency. The Curia must begin to open up, and not fear transparency," Kasper said.

There have been calls for details of an in-house investigative report about "Vatileaks", and some electors have been openly reluctant about speeding up the vote without knowing all the facts.

"This is time for a long reflection. This conclave needs to be prepared calmly. There is no hurry," Kasper said, while US Cardinal Francis George simply said: "We are not ready yet."

"I'm not saying Vatileaks will be a determining factor but I do want to know all pertinent aspects," said US Cardinal Sean O'Malley. "We have to take all the time we need."

reply to post by truejew


I know it's referring to people who are weak in faith...the only pagans going around teaching false doctrine are the ones that lead the church, not the ones that follow it. We have been speaking about those of weak faith since your original statements. You've lost sight of your original argument, that no one who identified with a Christian denomination could be considered a Christian. You condemned all followers of religion (NOT leaders) for believing in what you believe to be questionable or outright wrong doctrine...when really, so many of them in their hearts believe in God as much as you or I. You condemned them, you did not accept them...and then you argue your reason for it when there's no good reason to condemn those who are weak in faith.

You claim to "preach against false doctrine and those who preach the false doctrines as the apostles did and any minister should", but in this day and age of so many people avoiding the Christian faith for reasons such as being preached AT (which has sounded like what you have been doing all along, preaching AT me and anyone else who disagrees with you), why don't you try preaching TO the people of the Christian faith (like any good minister would do)? Preach TO them about the truth, not AT them about what's wrong and not AGAINST anyone?

There is a time and place to preach about who's wrong and for what reason they are wrong. I do not believe this is it! The world becomes more and more lost every day...it is not time to try to preach against the teachers of false doctrine, it is time to teach the truth to those who have been led astray or been repelled by that false doctrine...and to teach it in the most loving and least sanctimonious way possible. If there is to be any hope for them, we are to spread the message not by words of condemnation, but words of love. That is our only job as Christians...leave the teachers of false doctrine to the Lord to be dealt with. "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord." -Romans 12:19

I do not believe that all who are led astray are evil and should be condemned. This would be unjust. However, the continuation of questionable teachings and practices serves what purpose? Would we be acting as honest champions of the faith?

I agree, it would be unbelievably unjust to condemn all that have been led astray. That's what this whole argument has been about...not that people have tried for millennia to change the Bible (which they have), but that a blanket condemnation was made of those led astray and those with Christ in their hearts but lied to by a religion.

The continuation of questionable teachings and practices serves no purpose. I believe we should drop all of the "preaching against those who teach false doctrine" and come down off of our theological high horses...down to the people who need salvation and teach them the true path to salvation, and down to work to help strengthen the faith of those who have received salvation but have been lied to by religious organizations. If we were to do that, THEN we would be acting as honest champions of the faith and of Christ.

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by truejew

 

I know it's referring to people who are weak in faith...the only pagans going around teaching false doctrine are the ones that lead the church, not the ones that follow it.

Those who follow false doctrine are pagan whether they are a leader or not.

The leaders are spoken to harshly in order to get those who follow them in error to see their error and come out of it.

You are in error in your rebuke, especially since you are not a man of God.

reply to post by truejew


If you believe they are pagan, stop preaching AT them and preach TO them, spread the good news to them! Help save their souls since you claim to be a true minister and a man of God!

I am not in error. And you're right, I'm not a man of God, I'm a WOMAN of God.

If you're trying to tell me that I am not saved...you've got another thing coming, buddy. You know nothing about me or my salvation.

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:2

Originally posted by truejew
Those who follow false doctrine are pagan whether they are a leader or not.

On the subject of "false doctrine", have you managed to come up with any defense to my tearing apart of your illogical, unbiblical and nonsensical doctrine?

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by truejew

 

I am not in error. And you're right, I'm not a man of God, I'm a WOMAN of God.

Yes, you are in error. Since women are not called to the five-fold ministry, you have no authority to rebuke.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
Those who follow false doctrine are pagan whether they are a leader or not.

On the subject of "false doctrine", have you managed to come up with any defense to my tearing apart of your illogical, unbiblical and nonsensical doctrine?

You provided no such thing since you twist my words. Plus your post was directed towards Pastor Reckart, not me.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
Those who follow false doctrine are pagan whether they are a leader or not.

On the subject of "false doctrine", have you managed to come up with any defense to my tearing apart of your illogical, unbiblical and nonsensical doctrine?

You provided no such thing since you twist my words. Plus your post was directed towards Pastor Reckart, not me.

Actually, apart from speculating as to what his motivation was for making such a vapid claim, it wasn't really addressed to anyone. And, as I posted there, your silly "you twist my words" emotional responses are of no merit -- if those three assertions can't be refuted with logical theology, then the point stands that you are either mistaken about your own religion, or you worship something other than the God of the Bible.

reply to post by truejew

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by truejew

 

I am not in error. And you're right, I'm not a man of God, I'm a WOMAN of God.

Yes, you are in error. Since women are not called to the five-fold ministry, you have no authority to rebuke.

Truejew...

I never took you to be sexist or ignorant but I guess I was wrong. It's a shame...I advise you take your head out of your butt sometime.

And by the way, don't tell me whether I have authority or not. In fact, don't tell me anything based on the fact that I'm a woman, as it's bad form to do so and I doubt God would smile upon you for it. Please remember your manners when speaking to a lady, sir.

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by truejew

 

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by truejew

 

I am not in error. And you're right, I'm not a man of God, I'm a WOMAN of God.

Yes, you are in error. Since women are not called to the five-fold ministry, you have no authority to rebuke.

Truejew...

I never took you to be sexist or ignorant but I guess I was wrong. It's a shame...I advise you take your head out of your butt sometime.

You ain't seen nothin' yet, lol. In Pentecostal Oneness churches, women are not allowed to cut their hair, wear jewelry, make-up, pants or short dresses. Think "Amish" without the buggies and finely crafted furniture, lol.

A website that the Oneness Pentecostals would prefer you not read: Ex-Members of Unhealthy Churches Share Their Experiences

reply to post by adjensen


Oh, I've seen quite a lot! I used to live about two miles away from Bob Jones University...and if you know anything about Bob Jones...

I have lived in South Carolina my whole life. I've seen WAY more than my fair share of religious insanity and insensitivity. Ever heard of a "primitive Baptist church"? Ugh..

Originally posted by jcutler12888
Ever heard of a "primitive Baptist church"?

No, I've always lived in the north, but I see that they started in the 1800s. Between the Mormons, Adventists, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses and probably dozens of other goofy offshoots of Christianity that came out of that century (and the early 1900s,) I'm sure there's a Nobel or Pulitzer Prize in it for whoever tracks down the initial infection of religious insanity and determines its method of travel.

I'm guessing tainted water supply, lol.

reply to post by adjensen


Ah, I see...

Down here, we aren't very open to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or all of the other denominations that Southerners think are "whacked out"...it's very rare to meet anyone from any of those "fringe" denominations (well, fringe around here). Baptists (of many kinds), Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Catholics...in that order of popularity...are all you really see down here. There are plenty of reasonable ones down here of every denomination...but plenty of unreasonable ones as well.

reply to post by jcutler12888


It is Biblical fact that God does not call women to the ministry. 12 apostles, the prophets, the priests of the Old Testament were all men.

Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV)
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.