Why are Americans deluded into thinking they could win a civil war?

Some people still neglect the role logistics plays in the effective capability of a modern and mobile military force. (Also mentioned in other threads on this theme.) Break that supply chain, and technological superiority withers rather quickly. Any advanced weapons need parts and fuel. Other facilities like airfields, depots, and ports are needed for extended maintenance activities. (Some repairs just can't be done in-field.) Drones and aircraft can't fly indefinitely.

Truth is, productivity at home is what supports the U.S. in it's capability to project force overseas. The ability to move material is likely the most powerful key component that keeps it all going. If there were an actual war occuring everywhere within the country, guess what happens to that? This means if it came down to it and started becoming a real fight, any sustained military technological superiority would have to be supported by foreign sources.

Still it would be really bad if things got to that point. Would rather it doesn't happen and those in government get their act together and do their job of giving the people what they want. (Stop selling out to the biggest campaign donors and give your constituents a real listen. You might find the majority wants something a lot different than what the lobbyists have been telling you.)

Also, even though I can understand the greed and power influences that can trigger it, I'm not that fond of a second civil war. It would probably break the country apart considering differing regional cultural differences and ideologies at play and possible power grabs that would occur in the vacuum left if the federal government fell. The majority of things would thus fall back onto the state level, and to be honest some states aren't up to the task without outside support.

There are probably other examples of the following issue, but let me offer one reason that the .gov folks don't want any kind of real fight or economic collapse. There are 1,000's of electrical power plants in the US. These power plants are operated and maintained by people. These people go to work for a paycheck which in turn allows them to take care of their families. If there was any type of serious threat to these people's families they are not going to work, they are protecting their families. Enough power plant operators and mechanics don't show up for work and those bad boys are down. These operators and mechanics are highly skilled and are working on equipment which is complex. It would be exceptionally difficult for .gov to hire, train and assign replacements. In many cases these power plants each have unique configurations and taking someone from another even similar facility would not be helpful. The electrical grid could not survive even with as little as 25% of the power plants off line. The system would crash. I don't think that .gov would be able to prosecute a war without electricity for very long. There has to be this issue in other industries too. If SHTF for any reason significant enough for these power plant operators to stay home things will be very black out there.

Because the rag tag Taliban is winning the war and they r less equip than the American people.

Because one crazy man named James Donor turned media upside down n the publc into a world ending panic. Now imagine a couple hundred thousand of him running loose. It will cause a complete economic halt.

reply to post by TDawgRex


The big wild card I see in all this is the military. A soldier isn't a mindless drone as some on this site contend. They have families....Would they be willing to leave their families to join an armed revolt against the very gov't that gives them a pay check? A lot of these soldiers live in base housing with their families, leaving would mean either abondoning their families or bringing them along. If they desert then their families are no longer entitled to base housing nor would they have money to buy food. Also their families could be used to force them to obey orders.

Not sure how many people (civilian or soldier) would be willing to sacrifice their spouses or children to fight in a revolution. It would be a tough decision for them to abandon their families for an armed revolution....but, it doesn't mean they would necessarily fight against the rebellion.

reply to post by amfirst1


Hell, two thirds of them can't even read.

Hopefully we don't have to find out about how deadly a civil war in America could be. I imagine that, before it comes to that, the remaining loyal high ranking military officers will depose the Resident and restore the Constitution. However, Obama and, before him, Bush and Clinton were working overtime to get rid of the officers that are patriotic, replacing them with globalist stooges.

This was a problem during the Revolutionary war with EnglandIt seemed we had a bunch of peace activist then too . It is a good thing that there were some real men back then who fought the same machine then that we are fighting today . America would not have been a free nationif some of the defeatist , scared people was in charge then . Grow a set or get out of the way and shut up ! The fight is coming to us , not us to the fight .

Originally posted by Feltrick
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

The big wild card I see in all this is the military. A soldier isn't a mindless drone as some on this site contend. They have families....Would they be willing to leave their families to join an armed revolt against the very gov't that gives them a pay check? A lot of these soldiers live in base housing with their families, leaving would mean either abondoning their families or bringing them along. If they desert then their families are no longer entitled to base housing nor would they have money to buy food. Also their families could be used to force them to obey orders.

Not sure how many people (civilian or soldier) would be willing to sacrifice their spouses or children to fight in a revolution. It would be a tough decision for them to abandon their families for an armed revolution....but, it doesn't mean they would necessarily fight against the rebellion.

Think about it this way. Sure, the Federal Government will frame any resistance or revolutionary activity as terrorism, and use the media to drive that message home. This might work for a while, but anybody with eyes and ears can see how much more fascist Obama is than even Bush. Sooner or later people will realize that the stories they see on the nooze are fictional, as they won't be able to ignore the increasing police state / stasi type environment around them.

The soldiers will mostly do as they're told. If they are deployed to fight other Americans, you can bet that you'll see mainly black soldiers deployed into white areas, and vice versa. Natural tendencies for certain groups to mistrust each other will be exploited, and the troops will be told all manner of stories regarding the brutality of the rebels and their dastardly plans.

However, I think that ultimately the military would be unable to fight a sustained campaign merely because there are large parts of the nation that are rural, independent, armed, and determined to stay that way. For every civilian killed in such a region, five more will take their place. They might be able to say that Joe Sixpack from Missoula was an evil baby-killing Nazi racist, and people in New York City and L.A. might believe it, but his neighbors probably will wake up and shut the nooze off after that.

This is the ultimate problem - the Federal side will resort to lies and propaganda in order to gain support, and as they do, and it becomes more blatant, people will realize which side is the one that is deceptive.

The largest armed force in the world is the American public. Why would you think for a minute that any government would stand? Kill 90% of American gun owners and they would still outnumber the military 10-1. You anti 2nd amendment folks are a minority friend!

Not that we would ever need to shoot. Time will show that gun grabbing is political suicide! Americans love their guns my man, and we are the power in America. We grant the government power not the other way around.

You will start to see state ballot initiatives in every state that will challenge gun legislation at the federal level, and this will lead to redress of all the Anti American crap that's been shoved down our throats. We have had enough! The gun stuff is what broke the camel's back!

The feds have militarized our local law enforcement and the National Guard is under state control! Don't confuse yourself friend! When states mobilize there is no way forward for the feds. How many states are nuclear powers?

Please don't delude yourself in thinking that those who support the second are #1 the minority #2 a bunch of terrorists. We are your police men, your service men, your teachers, your neighbors etc..!

Any Goverment which would make war upon millions of it citizens has no chance of standing! It is not the other way around!

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Actually, both sides will resort to lies, deceit and propaganda. Please don't tell me that any armed revolution will be the bearers of truth and honesty! It just doesn't work that way. The revolutionist leaders will spew their propaganda, the same as the Fed and neither will be the total truth of the matter.

The massacre at Waco was used by many sides as propaganda for their own means. What is the truth that you believe about it? Truth depends upon whichever side you're with and nothing more. We are being continually lied to by all sides and only accept that one is lying because we want to believe that our side is right.

Propaganda is a two way street and you need to look both ways before crossing!

reply to post by Feltrick


Disinformation is only necessary if your adversary needs to be painted as the bad guy. If they actually are the bad guy, the light of truth is enough.

All I believe about Waco is that the media and government lies about it have created a fictional version of history that is still believed by most people despite evidence to the contrary. Heck, they burned Dorner the same way they burned the children at Waco, and even recycled the same lies, saying that the supposed teargas grenades just accidentally lit a fire. People who aren't brain dead know that incendiary devices were used on both occasions, and the ultimate effect of these was the desired and planned one.

People can already sense the palpable contempt for the American citizenry that emanates from the beltway. Even your average Joe on the street knows that his elected "leaders" view him as a monkey with a wallet that needs to have its money extracted and transferred to the leaders' buddies.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by Feltrick

 

Disinformation is only necessary if your adversary needs to be painted as the bad guy. If they actually are the bad guy, the light of truth is enough.

All I believe about Waco is that the media and government lies about it have created a fictional version of history that is still believed by most people despite evidence to the contrary. Heck, they burned Dorner the same way they burned the children at Waco, and even recycled the same lies, saying that the supposed teargas grenades just accidentally lit a fire. People who aren't brain dead know that incendiary devices were used on both occasions, and the ultimate effect of these was the desired and planned one.

People can already sense the palpable contempt for the American citizenry that emanates from the beltway. Even your average Joe on the street knows that his elected "leaders" view him as a monkey with a wallet that needs to have its money extracted and transferred to the leaders' buddies.

Your above post is filled with propaganda! In fact, you would make a great propaganda minister for the revolution. Hey, we don't need propaganda because they're the bad guy...brilliant!

The light of truth only lights the way for those who buy into whatever truth they want to believe. You want to believe that the government is evil, so you will accept as truth that which portrays them as the bad guy. At Waco, they're desired outcome was to kill women and children and that is the reason they used tear gas. The other side is saying that they used tear gas to try and save the women and children. The actual truth is somewhere between both.

Dorner is not the same as Waco but, listening to the truth that you want to believe, they are now the same. Your truth says that the government wants to kill it's citizens so now every time a citizen is killed by a government employee the propaganda machine goes into effect. The government wanted to kill him so they set the cabin on fire knowing that he would not come out, then had the ME say he shot himself to avoid capture.

Unfortunately, the propaganda from both sides has muddied the truth so thoroughly that no one has any real idea what the truth is. The truth of Waco could not possibly be a mistake made by an LE officer, right? I mean, those guys never make mistakes that cost lives. It was obviously intentional.

Why are American's deluded....

reply to post by sajuek


I have never heard more self-entitling nonsense based on assumptions than this. You try and list obese statistics and age statistics and all that, and then you go on assuming what we can and can't do. So just because someone is 'obese' or 'overweight', they can't sling a rifle around their soldier and man a post? I'm 20 years old. I have met 15 year olds that look older than me. I would argue they are more 'battle ready' than me because of high amounts of testosterone. I'm sure everyone knows at least one 'spunky' old man with more energy and drive than most of us. Hell I've worked out with a 70 year old man who could bench press and lift more overall than I could. I would argue he is more 'battle-ready' than my 'non-obese, non-minor non-senior' self. We all know what happens when you assume, and for those who don't know, you make an ASS of U and ME.
Also, if our forefathers had the same mentality as you, we wouldn't even have a United States to fight over. Maybe you can curl into a little ball and accept defeat. Americans will accept the challenge

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou

This is the ultimate problem - the Federal side will resort to lies and propaganda in order to gain support, and as they do, and it becomes more blatant, people will realize which side is the one that is deceptive.

I don't think they garner as much support as you think. When the people don't have a voice it easy for the Media to pretend to be the voice of America. You will start to see State Ballot initiatives in every state. Signatures are being gathered all over the country. The people will speak to Gun Control with their states ballots. This has also opened a door for redress of other wrong doings! It seems people stay pretty mum when piecemealed out of rights, but when you go for the guns it's on like Donkey Kong!

1: State ballot initiatives.
2: Elect real leaders based on merit.
3: Repeal all the anti American crap and reaffirm the constitution of the United States. (Repeal the Patriot act, NDAA and disband the DHS and related organizations etc.. etc...)
4: Ousts all who may have been involved in the use of deceptive propaganda against the American public, and or participated in attacks upon America including attacks upon personal liberty and the American way.
5: Institute Media reform to ensure that the voice of America is never again rested in the hands of a few, and that the free press is never again monopolized for the benefit of tyranny! Give Americans a real voice!

Originally posted by Feltrick

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by Feltrick

 

Disinformation is only necessary if your adversary needs to be painted as the bad guy. If they actually are the bad guy, the light of truth is enough.

All I believe about Waco is that the media and government lies about it have created a fictional version of history that is still believed by most people despite evidence to the contrary. Heck, they burned Dorner the same way they burned the children at Waco, and even recycled the same lies, saying that the supposed teargas grenades just accidentally lit a fire. People who aren't brain dead know that incendiary devices were used on both occasions, and the ultimate effect of these was the desired and planned one.

People can already sense the palpable contempt for the American citizenry that emanates from the beltway. Even your average Joe on the street knows that his elected "leaders" view him as a monkey with a wallet that needs to have its money extracted and transferred to the leaders' buddies.

Your above post is filled with propaganda! In fact, you would make a great propaganda minister for the revolution. Hey, we don't need propaganda because they're the bad guy...brilliant!

The light of truth only lights the way for those who buy into whatever truth they want to believe. You want to believe that the government is evil, so you will accept as truth that which portrays them as the bad guy. At Waco, they're desired outcome was to kill women and children and that is the reason they used tear gas. The other side is saying that they used tear gas to try and save the women and children. The actual truth is somewhere between both.

Dorner is not the same as Waco but, listening to the truth that you want to believe, they are now the same. Your truth says that the government wants to kill it's citizens so now every time a citizen is killed by a government employee the propaganda machine goes into effect. The government wanted to kill him so they set the cabin on fire knowing that he would not come out, then had the ME say he shot himself to avoid capture.

Unfortunately, the propaganda from both sides has muddied the truth so thoroughly that no one has any real idea what the truth is. The truth of Waco could not possibly be a mistake made by an LE officer, right? I mean, those guys never make mistakes that cost lives. It was obviously intentional.

Why are American's deluded....

My post isn't filled with propaganda. It's all true. And anybody who actually watches the nooze, and then investigates events for themselves, sees that the official media / government stories are usually filled with lies, and omit critical data. For example, Dorner - the cops are caught on audio recordings saying "burn him out" and "get the burners" and then the pathetic explanation is that teargas is called "burners" in police parlance. A simple investigation of this matter shows that this is untrue.

The truth with Waco is the same, as is the truth with Randy Weaver and probably countless other incidents that being lower profile, are not known by many people.

Why are Americans deluded? It's a careful mix of disinformation in the media, lies by the government, and their trusting nature. After all, most are not lying snakes, and those that are take advantage of those that aren't. It's no different now than it was in the old days, except the speed of the media and government propaganda, and the ubiquity of television, makes it much more effective.

People are increasingly feeling the pressure, though, because the greed of the elites knows no bound, and they don't know that eventually they will push the average Joe over his own personal line. Hell, they have gotten so used to pushing around the common rabble that they imagine that there is no limit to the amount of pushing the people will happily endure. History shows that they are dead wrong, though, and that there is a collective line across which the people will not be pushed. Disarming the public is that line, and this is something that the elite feel they must do, so the order is set. The only question any more is not if, but when.

reply to post by Feltrick


The fire was set intentionally by the police. The audio from the police scanner proves it.

"Steve go along with the plan and burn that mother f%4cker!"

"Seven burners deployed, and we have a fire."

"Fire will be staged at the first contact with the first armored unit down there."

The media was told to leave so they couldnt film it. They called in the firemen after "...all four corners burn" but then changed their mind and told them to stay back after they realised their was a basement.

"I'm told that there's basement in the cabin. So as a precaution, since the fire's self-containing itself I'm going to let that heat burn through that basement."

"You guys with eyes on the back: If you, uh, see something that's catching fire that's not supposed to be, then let me know. But otherwise, let it go."

"We've got, uh, good penetration with the fire at 2-3 corner. It's still doing quite well, self-containing itself. I'm gonna let it go."



www.ibtimes.com... /did-cops-set-christopher-dorner-cabin-fire-listen-police-scanner-recording-audio-transcript-1084276

You claim his statement was propaganda. Could you please point it out?

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou

This is the ultimate problem - the Federal side will resort to lies and propaganda in order to gain support, and as they do, and it becomes more blatant, people will realize which side is the one that is deceptive.

I don't think they garner as much support as you think. When the people don't have a voice it easy for the Media to pretend to be the voice of America. You will start to see State Ballot initiatives in every state. Signatures are being gathered all over the country. The people will speak to Gun Control with their states ballots. This has also opened a door for redress of other wrong doings! It seems people stay pretty mum when piecemealed out of rights, but when you go for the guns it's on like Donkey Kong!

1: State ballot initiatives.
2: Elect real leaders based on merit.
3: Repeal all the anti American crap and reaffirm the constitution of the United States. (Repeal the Patriot act, NDAA and disband the DHS and related organizations etc.. etc...)
4: Ousts all who may have been involved in the use of deceptive propaganda against the American public, and or participated in attacks upon America including attacks upon personal liberty and the American way.
5: Institute Media reform to ensure that the voice of America is never again rested in the hands of a few, and that the free press is never again monopolized for the benefit of tyranny! Give Americans a real voice!

edit on 25-2-2013 by Donkey_Dean because: (no reason given)

The media is losing purchase every day. Of course, you won't read about it or see it on the news. Our elite pretend that the media is the voice of the common person, but this fiction, while originally for our benefit, is only for their own agenda's benefit any more.

State level action is where this started, back in the 1990s with concealed carry spreading like wildfire across the nation. However, because this battleground is clearly where a lot of progress is made, this is also where the elite are starting to deploy their footsoldiers. Every state has those two or four people who are elected every year, yet treat their districts, state, and people with such palpable contempt that they don't even bother to hide it any more. These folks have unlimited lobbying dollars at their disposal and seem to be the ones that always get into the media with their messages. People with eyes and ears know what the story is.

But, yes, guns are the real issue that people know about, and will not tolerate interference with. It is THE hot-button issue in the USA and because the people with the guns want to keep them, they are finally taking the earplugs and blinders off.

Originally posted by crystalbeing
reply to post by Feltrick

 

The fire was set intentionally by the police. The audio from the police scanner proves it.

"Steve go along with the plan and burn that mother f%4cker!"

"Seven burners deployed, and we have a fire."

"Fire will be staged at the first contact with the first armored unit down there."
The media was told to leave so they couldnt film it. They called in the firemen after "...all four corners burn" but then changed their mind and told them to stay back after they realised their was a basement.

I'm told that there's basement in the cabin. So as a precaution, since the fire's self-containing itself I'm going to let that heat burn through that basement."

"You guys with eyes on the back: If you, uh, see something that's catching fire that's not supposed to be, then let me know. But otherwise, let it go."

"We've got, uh, good penetration with the fire at 2-3 corner. It's still doing quite well, self-containing itself. I'm gonna let it go."



www.ibtimes.com... /did-cops-set-christopher-dorner-cabin-fire-listen-police-scanner-recording-audio-transcript-1084276

Even though the audio is clear, and the intention obvious, this won't stop propagandists from attempting to say that something that everybody knows is true is false. Lots of people will hear on the news that it was just an accidental fire, and they won't check it out for themselves - even though it's simple to do these days - and so history will record that just like at Waco, the fire was an accident.

Sure, a few "lone nuts" and "conspiracy theorists" will disagree, and even proffer proof when asked, but once something's written down in a textbook it's "the truth" for a lot of the poor suckers out there.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Exactly, what you say isn't propaganda, it's the truth.

If you have to ask then you are part of the problem.

You think Government can win? They have all the aces up their sleeves. But it's the wildcard that throws a wrench in the works that can change the outcome.

Think back to 1776. We started this nation under same principles. A government who thought they were too big to lose a war. Not only did they lose, they also lost their newly formed country, the United States of America.

It is time to wake up..... Either you are going to lose the war in which case America will cease to be America. It will be a destroyed, divided States of America.