Qur'an a Code for living a good life

reply to post by logical7


There just doesn't seem to be enough cross-cultural currency in the Qur'an.

We live in an age where the disciplines of comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism have shown the shared spiritual heritage of all mankind. It seems that Muslims have a hard time realizing that God transcends culture, concepts, words, religion.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science."

-Joseph Campbell

reply to post by logical7


You are very confused. I hope you keep the dialogue about your religion going. Best of luck.

Originally posted by vkey08
reply to post by logical7

 

Wow i thought it would take more posts before you started the Allah is the only God and any other religion is crud stuff, see how "tolerant" that book is?

You made my point for me..

maybe not, i believe that there is One God and so i am a muslim, not that because i am muslim so i believe in One God. Other people who are not muslim(label) who also believe in the same One God are also muslim by its meaning.
What does a label mean anyway, nothing to me.
But as Qur'an says if your best reason to follow Shinto is that its a family tradition then you should think more about it. Will you believe whatever your forefathers told you just because they were your forefathers? Qur'an is not saying to just accept it, rather asking you to question why you do/believe what you do/believe and seek more better reasons and be honest to yourself, you dont have to prove anything to me or anyone here, i dont care what you believe or not believe.

reply to post by logical7


The truth...when spoken is undeniable. "the holy texts" are hardly undeniable. Your God is as much true as is any, and according to locally enforced beliefs. If you had been brought up in a community that worshiped animals and conducted sacrifices, than that would have been your truth. Your god would be an animal, and you would have claimed also that it is the true god.

Islamic and Christian faiths are two religions that recruited followers in blood throughout history. Truth needs not be enforced upon anyone. It is self evident.

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by logical7

 

There just doesn't seem to be enough cross-cultural currency in the Qur'an.

the aim of all monotheistic religions (not the corrupted clerics) is to unite people around one thing. MONOTHEISM.

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge. Quran 30::22 "

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. Quran 49::13"

"But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]. Quran 3::52"

"Say, "O People of the Scripture (christians and jews), come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3::64"

"They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture (Christians and Jews) is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. Quran 3:: 113"

I am amazed of those who speak about science but they can not rationalize and understand the existence and the need for the existence of the first creator Allah(God)(Yahweh)(Lord).

Originally posted by maes2

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by logical7

 

There just doesn't seem to be enough cross-cultural currency in the Qur'an.

the aim of all monotheistic religions (not the corrupted clerics) is to unite people around one thing. MONOTHEISM.

Careful... you might end up making an idol out of monotheism.

God transcends concepts such as monotheism and polytheism.

No single image or name can capture the infinite diety... to think otherwise is to invite idolatry.

No single religion can capture it either.

That's why cross-cultural currency is important. It opens one up to that realization.

Originally posted by vkey08
reply to post by logical7

 

Wow i thought it would take more posts before you started the Allah is the only God and any other religion is crud stuff, see how "tolerant" that book is?

You made my point for me..

Depends on your definition of god. If it is a more evolved consciousness than humans, in that case there are gods all over. If it is the sum of the blessed ones (the spirits that have evolved towards nonduality) then the parts are many but they can act totally as one. If it is everything that is and the collective consiousness that everything creates then there is only one WHOLE.

Religion is only a viewpoint. Some viewpoints are closer to what is some are less close. Even a spirit on this side who have been given the bliss and know what the being in the light feels like do not fully know what is, since there are limitations in the scensory input and the conscious mind is not allowed to know everything the body or unconscious mind knows.

Being a human is a very limited experiance with too little information to make any really thought out decisions. And knowing to much makes it hard for the mind to cope.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Think about it, Logical. A man gets in a rage and kills his neighbor, but he has been a good man all of his life. Do we say, 'Well, part of him is good so we'll just let him go free.' ? No, that's not going to happen. A thousand good things does not wash away one bad thing. Throw the biblical books out.

what if the man did it because he watched many violent shows on tv, would you publicly execute the tv or the man?
Everyone has a brain and its desirable to be used. Some dont use it and can find excuse for violence even in a book of fairy tales.
You look at human actions to interpret and judge an inanimate book/religion.
Who will you blame if an atheist did a shoot out in a church? Atheism? Just to be impartial, Where do you pin the blame of all the crimes done by atheists?if a theist's religion takes the blame for his crime.
Atheists have their own idols/celebrity atheists who have a lot of power and abuse it. Its a religion in every sense, just doesnt have that high following.

You missed the point. If there are bad things in biblical texts, just because there are also good things doesn't make the bad things acceptable. All religious texts should be burned and religious people should start over again, with nothing but peaceful intentions in all new texts.

reply to post by BlueMule

There just doesn't seem to be enough cross-cultural currency in the Qur'an. We live in an age where the disciplines of comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism have shown the shared spiritual heritage of all mankind. It seems that Muslims have a hard time realizing that God transcends culture, concepts, words, religion.

its surprising that you feel that way, islam is a religion that acknowledges all prophets, has cultural currency of two other major religions, also believes that all cultures got their own messengers, who spoke the same message in their own language and preached the message of truth, justice and compassion.
Discipline of comparative religion is good, i hope it reaches a unified spiritual idea after clearing away the layers made up in religions that hide the basic message.
Qur'an actually offers this to the jews and christians

Say: "O People of the
Book! come to
common terms
as between us
and you: that
we worship none but Allah;
that we
associate no
partners with
Him; that we
erect not, from among
ourselves,
Lords and
patrons other
than Allah." If
then they turn back, say ye:
"Bear witness
that we (at
least) are
Muslims
(bowing to Allah's Will)." Quran 3.64

comparative religion study doesnt mean a compromise.
A polytheist can accept the God of monotheist and still be a polytheist but a monotheist wouldnt remain monotheist if other gods are accepted.
Have you reached a simplified spiritual understanding that can be accepted by all? What it is?

reply to post by logical7


And yet, there isn't enough to prevent the destruction of cultural artifacts at the hands of extremists.

So, not enough in my opinion.

reply to post by jiggerj

You missed the point. If there are bad things in biblical texts, just because there are also good things doesn't make the bad things acceptable. All religious texts should be burned and religious people should start over again, with nothing but peaceful intentions in all new texts.

i did miss it but just in part. I understand what you meant but do you get what i want to say,
its people who have a violent streak and then get born/convert in/to a religion and misinterpret the texts to their own twisted ends.
Burning the texts wouldnt make them disappear, religion is abused because it exists, if it wasnt there then it would be nationalism, racism and the recent new trend is fight against terrorism!! Is killing innocents justifiable for any of the above reasons? Isnt it all just 'ego' at work? Do you have a solution to kill/burn/destroy ego? Then peace would come naturally.
Blaming religion is finding a scapegoat, a witch hunt because the real criminal is in each of us hiding more perfectly in ones who are more infected by it and burning something/someone gives us a sense of action and purpose.

Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by logical7

 

And yet, there isn't enough to prevent the destruction of cultural artifacts at the hands of extremists.

So, not enough in my opinion.

edit on 21-2-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

you promote open minded study in comparitive religion yet pass quick judgement on one religion based on actions of a fringe group?
Are you just trying to throw a point to have the last word?
I dont want a debate, it is almost never productive.
I'l like you to tell me regarding the question i asked before

Have you reached a simplified spiritual
understanding that can be accepted
by all? What it is?

reply to post by logical7

fringe group?

The thing is...Islam originates from middle east. Your Fringe groups mostly rule there today. Sharia is enforced in many countries. It's not really fringe as you say it...they are in control in countries where the population is mostly muslim.

What countries use Sharia Law?

In: Islam, England [Edit categories]
Answer:
Countries using strict forms of Sharia Law include:

Death for Blasphemy:

1. Afghanistan
2. Bahrain
3. Iran
4. Mauritania
5. Oman
6. Pakistan
7. Yemen
8. Saudi Arabia
9. Gaza

Imprisonment for Blasphemy:

1. Algeria
2. Bangladesh
3. Egypt
4. Iraq
5. Kuwait
6. Libya
7. Malaysia
8. Maldives
9. Morocco
10. Somalia
11. Tunisia
12. United Arab Emirates


Nations that include some level of Sharia (leniant sentences for honour killings, ban on new churches, floggings, etc):


1. Indonesia (Flogging, Caning; Sharia applied strictly in Aceh province)
2. Turkey (Restrictions on alcohol)
3. Brunei (Caning, Alcohol is illegal)
4. Jordan (2 years or less for honour killings)
5. Eritrea (Girls as young as 8 can be married, spousal rape is not recognized)
6. Syria (1 year or less for honour killings)
7. Djibouti (Sharia law regarding divorce)
8. Chechnya (Modest dress enforced, Alcohol and gambling suppressed by local authorities)
9. Niger (girls can be married off before they reach puberty)
10. Nigeria (Sharia is enforced in the northern states)
11. Kenya (Ad Hoc Sharia enforced in the east near the border with Somalia)
12. Gambia (Sharia courts decide all family matters, including for non-Muslims)
13. Qatar (public consumption is illegal during Ramadan, Alcohol heavily restricted, blood money acceptable punishment for murder, "kafala" law which is also shared by all Gulf states but Bahrain is technically slavery)
14. Uganda (Kadhi Courts overseeing family and civil matters)

Most "Western" nations also have parallel Sharia legal systems (for example in Canada polygamy is widely practiced and authorities look the other way, Imams refusing to condemn or work to stop it). Sharia finance is also practiced in many nations around the world. Many other Islamic nations that do not apply Sharia (such as Azerbaijan, Albania, Bosnia, Uzbekistan, and Tajikstan) have large portions of their population who do want it applied or who actively seek to abide by it extra-legally.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

The thing is...Islam originates from middle east. Your Fringe groups mostly rule there today. Sharia is enforced in many countries. It's not really fringe as you say it...they are in control in countries where the population is mostly muslim.

maybe you dont even know how ignorant you are about islam.

Fringe groups and sharia are not one and the same, you are made to believe that by constant hammering on the head by MSM.

Extremists want to enforce sharia(which is wrong) while muslim majority countries choose/vote for sharia(democratically very right).

You are actually objecting that a 90-100% majority of muslims in any country cant make the laws of their choice!
So we have to eat and keep pork, alcohol and gambling just because you like it? Uh?
The problems you are pointing are not due to sharia, its the local culture, lack of uniform governance etc
Some problems are problems only to you not muslims, i have civil sharia law in my country and muslims are free to practice it if all parties agree, if not then they go to regular court with secular laws.

If you feel that 2 billion people are choosing questionable values and your values should be imposed on them then you dont have a right to point finger at extremists who think in a similar way.
Get informed about Sharia and islam just to understand muslims and not to be afraid of the unknown.

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by logical7

 

The truth...when spoken is undeniable. "the holy texts" are hardly undeniable. Your God is as much true as is any, and according to locally enforced beliefs. If you had been brought up in a community that worshiped animals and conducted sacrifices, than that would have been your truth. Your god would be an animal, and you would have claimed also that it is the true god.

Islamic and Christian faiths are two religions that recruited followers in blood throughout history. Truth needs not be enforced upon anyone. It is self evident.

i agree with what you say, however have you read Qur'an? And not just believed what you are told.
The Truth is sure self evident, so will you take it even if you find it in Qur'an?
I'l suggest that you read Qur'an and a few translations rather than just one and from authentic sources.
Maybe then we can discuss better.

reply to post by logical7

So we have to eat and keep pork, alcohol and gambling just because you like it? Uh?

Its funny how some people, especially Americans complaining about Sharia law, forget that Mohammad was honored as one of history's greatest lawgivers way back in 1935 by the US supreme court. The US supreme court friezes includes Mohammad among many other lawgivers of the ancient world.

Also, the entrance to the law department of the University of Harvard has a quote from the Koran.


“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as againstYourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both.”


library.law.harvard.edu...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by logical7

 

So we have to eat and keep pork, alcohol and gambling just because you like it? Uh?

Its funny how some people, especially Americans complaining about Sharia law, forget that Mohammad was honored as one of history's greatest lawgivers way back in 1935 by the US supreme court. The US supreme court friezes includes Mohammad among many other lawgivers of the ancient world.

Also, the entrance to the law department of the University of Harvard has a quote from the Koran.


“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as againstYourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both.”

i dint knew this. Thanks for sharing. It just proves that educated and knowlegeable people have a completely different opinion about Islam and Muhammad pbuh as compared to the ones who are yet ignorant.
Sadly they are also the majority in west and more worst is when the learnt westeners defend islam because they know it, the ignorants think of them as traitors/backstabbers, i heard an interesting slang too 'muzzi lovers'!
I'l like to also put a quote here,
“In the age of information, ignorance
is a choice.” ― Donny Miller.

reply to post by logical7

maybe you dont even know how ignorant you are about islam

I am absolutely ignorant about Islam. I have never studied it, or it's Holly Books. But I know what Sharia is...

Sharia (Arabic: شريعة‎ šarīʿah, IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa], "legislation"; sp. shariah, sharīʿah;[1] also قانون إسلامي qānūn ʾIslāmī) is the moral code and religious law of Islam. Sharia deals with many topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, and fasting. Though interpretations of sharia vary between cultures, in its strictest definition it is considered the infallible law of God—as opposed to the human interpretation of the laws (fiqh).

Infalible law of God. No further comments needed.

Extremists want to enforce sharia(which is wrong) while muslim majority countries choose/vote for sharia(democratically very right).

Whether it's enforced or accepted, I don't support it either way. And I'm of the opinion, that if you do, that you have been sufficiently brainwashed.

You are actually objecting that a 90-100% majority of muslims in any country cant make the laws of their choice!

Yes...Yes I do. If they emigrate from their country of origin, than they should uphold the laws of the country they reside in currently. Not ignore them and make up their own. (I'm talking about Muslims that live in countries where Islam is not the main religion).

Instead they mostly ignore the laws, 'cos you see...they have

Infalible law of God

...on their side.

If you feel that 2 billion people are choosing questionable values and your values should be imposed on them then you dont have a right to point finger at extremists who think in a similar way.

Yes, I feel you choose questionable values. I am however not imposing mine on anyone, nor would I ever. I'm simply on ATS discussing it. The difference is grand. Disagreeing with something, or waging Holy War on the infidels.

As far as I'm concerned...you are all infidels...none of you have ever met or talked to God. Yet you claim the right one.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

Yes, I feel you choose questionable values. I am however not imposing mine on anyone, nor would I ever. I'm simply on ATS discussing it. The difference is grand. Disagreeing with something, or waging Holy War on the infidels.

the other side thinks your values are shallow, materialistic and hedonistic. The truth however is that both of us have common values. I hope you stop considering muslims as brainwashed just because the value system is different.
I would love to discuss with you. Your value system is world oriented, physical reality based where religion is 'tolerated'
my value system is spirituality based where the 'world' is 'tolerated' in some ways and enjoyed in a limited framework(halal things only)
Now if the foundation is so opposite, how can it not appear questionable to each other but the basic values of humanity are the same, hope i am able to show you that during our discussion.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by jiggerj

 

You missed the point. If there are bad things in biblical texts, just because there are also good things doesn't make the bad things acceptable. All religious texts should be burned and religious people should start over again, with nothing but peaceful intentions in all new texts.

i did miss it but just in part. I understand what you meant but do you get what i want to say,
its people who have a violent streak and then get born/convert in/to a religion and misinterpret the texts to their own twisted ends.
Burning the texts wouldnt make them disappear, religion is abused because it exists, if it wasnt there then it would be nationalism, racism and the recent new trend is fight against terrorism!! Is killing innocents justifiable for any of the above reasons? Isnt it all just 'ego' at work? Do you have a solution to kill/burn/destroy ego? Then peace would come naturally.
Blaming religion is finding a scapegoat, a witch hunt because the real criminal is in each of us hiding more perfectly in ones who are more infected by it and burning something/someone gives us a sense of action and purpose.

You are 100% correct! Which suggests there is either no god or no need of one. If we abuse religion just like we abuse everything else, where is this god to protect his word in religious texts? You'd think he'd at least do that if he were real. A god (a perfect god) would know how to share his word with us humans in a way that couldn't be misconstrued by any human.