God loves me.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

The mythical story of the rebellion and of the one who rebelled (wanted to rise up on the throne) isn't one to be admired, because to rebel against the God of love is to become hate filled and self-willed.

I disagree. You have so far failed to draw a reasonable line between love and tyranny. To that end, you have failed to prove that "God" is love and not, in fact, a tyrant.

In addition to this, to go against such a questionable being is not to become hate - it is to seek our own version of happiness, to seek our own choice in fulfillment. That is the prize of free will...a prize that, apparently, we are forbidden to seek.

Unless, of course, you can prove that "God" is not a tyrant.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The "strong man" that the love of God binds is the self-attached ego-centric self (who craves power) which is inauthentic to begin with, whereby the one who is set free is the true and authentic self, the happy one, the creative being, playful, childlike.

The one who rebels, to set himself up on the highest hilltop, that one, the willful one, he is the tyrant.

The love of God through the work of Jesus Christ is a liberating love who's object is our liberation, freed even from our own subjective self-imprisonment including the bondage to sin and wickedness (what is hurtful not helpful).

The love of God is a principal of liberation, even in the face of rebellion and the work of the tyranny of the self.

"Our liberation is God's compulsion."
~ C.S. Lewis

The will to meaning and thus a meaningful suffering (for the sake of love) trumps the will to power anyway, which always fails and abysmally at that whereby pride always goes before the fall.

The thing to fear is a hardened heart, which God as love, has no use for, the unbreakable heart, oh how I thank God that I am not like that that I know how to cry and am moved to compassion for my fellow man no matter who he is

Oh to be separated from the love of God as the center and the source and the reason, what a tragedy!

To avoid even the possibility of separation in eternity (recognizing my own propensity for egotism), I would willingly embody the evil one while falling at the feet of the cross of Jesus Christ, I would go to any lengths never to make the same mistake, and I will do it for your sake too because I can see quite clearly what you're up to.

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine

Will, under Love (not the other way around).

Look to the lives of people like Crowley or Pike or LeVey who played with the satanic principal of the will to power, and what became of them. Look around at the world today even and see and recognize what is happening among us. The will to power is on it's last legs while the beast itself thrashes in chains at the event horizon of the abyss (oblivion), that's the power of love and the reason of love at work.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I read your posts, and also the contents of the link to Part I of your thread. Your argument seems to be based on assuming God as some separate entity, with various attributes, powers, etc. From this presumption, you are able to ask your questions regarding perfection, tyranny, etc. But not everyone assumes God as Other nor as some kind of super-entity.

Does your argument hold up if you presume that the Divine is Conscious Light in which all conditions arise and are a modification of?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Look to the lives of people like Crowley or Pike or LeVey who played with the satanic principal of the will to power, and what became of them.

What became of them?

They died. I don't think that was the result of their 'philosophy'.

reply to post by bb23108

Your argument seems to be based on assuming God as some separate entity, with various attributes, powers, etc.

Not an assumption on his part

In response to Biblical definitions of god's nature. If assumptions are being made, it's the Bible and those that believe in it.

This is clearly the 'god' in question.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
Thank you. And yes, it is clearly the assumption that Christians, and almost all religious and spiritual traditions make (that God is the Great Other) - and of course, this should be questioned and determined if it is true.

Man tends to make three core assumptions:

Belief in a separate self (inner)
Belief in a separate world (outer)
Belief in a separate God-idea

Are any of these beliefs actually true? They have provided the framework for endless beliefs, mythologies, social systems, cultures, etc. - but are they truly our reality?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

They became a total mess and fell apart spiritually, before they died.

The left-handed path is corrupt unless it is placed in service to the right hand, as with John the Baptist.

There is a satanic principal of rebellion within the context of a universal controversy surrounding the issue of spiritual authority, and that did indeed play out in ancient history with all manner of powers and principalities "weighing in" on the cosmic drama (from God only knows where) with mankind solipsistically at center stage, and the Bible is in many ways a story of one God replacing another through an evolutionary process of differentiation and reintegration, so indeed there's a lot of God-confusion in the Bible as a chronicle of man's quest for Civility, unto the point that Jesus Christ walked onto the scene (from his training ground) armed to the teeth at about the age of 30.

reply to post by bb23108

I call myself an evolutionary Christian mystic who believes that the "commission" charged to me by Jesus himself is a participatory eschatology (see my signature for more).

While I am all for oneness in spirit I also feel that an indespensible I-Thou relationship with God as the Absolute Godhead is well indespensible i.e.: that we are in partnership with God by design and even necessitated by our free will whereby we're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

Therefore I am like a horse with a powerful bit in the mouth in recognition that there's always a bit in the mouth with reigns in the hands of a higher power (according to what I call the paradox of leadership), and I choose Christianity because in that relationship between Jesus and God the father (Absolute Godhead and superintelligent first/last cause) is represented the authentic relationship of a divine order between God and man as a created being.

I want my mind heart and soul to be or become like a saddle for the spirit of the living God - then every arrow I (we) fire will always find it's mark. It's like becoming the ultimate action adventure hero with the whole cosmos waiting and watching in anticipation for the Great Work of the Ages to be wrought here on earth, of all places. It's like a universal joke that only enlightened man can tell and by God it will be told and when it is, the laughter, even of the angels (and aliens) will raise the roof and unite us all.

But the Buck (think Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer, allegorically) stops here, where it's foggiest and where the going gets the toughest and roughest..

So which is more courageous, to rebel, or to be "harnessed" in this way..?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
... God the father (Absolute Godhead and superintelligent first/last cause) ...

Once God is assumed as the absolute first/last cause, all hell breaks loose!

In other words, this is another presumption that should be inspected. Is the Divine actually the cause of any thing? The Divine is beyond cause and effect - the Divine is the Unconditional, i.e., the Acausal Reality in which the conditional worlds, all forms, arise. The Acausal Divine is prior to but also completely coincident with all arising.

The model of God as the Great Other is based in how our minds tend to operate - I here, you there, God over there, etc. Reality, beyond and prior to body-mind, is not necessarily (and fortunately!) based in these same limitations.

reply to post by bb23108


True, thanks for the reminder. I can see what you mean. "God" must not forget "himself" by identifying solely with/in the role of creator..

"The creator is created.
The destroyer is destroyed.
The preserver is preserved."
~ Meher Baba (but how could he know?)

By God as creative first/last cause, I am referring an a superintelligent design which had the earth and us in mind from the very outset, so by first/last cause I am talking about the aspect of God that is infinitely intelligent in the creative intent which saw in advance the inclusion of man as an essential ingredient. And while I don't have time at the moment, this CAN be proven via an examination of the unique Earth-Moon-Sun cosmological configuration in such a way that the "strong anthropic principal" cannot render the data meaningless or irrelevant, and thus the only possible rebuttal to the proof may be shown to be unscientific.


Why do these things all seem to be funny and amuzing..

reply to post by NewAgeMan

They became a total mess and fell apart spiritually, before they died.

I am curious. How do you know this?

For one many people 'fall apart' before they die regardless of religion and philosophy. In the face of death. I know the famous, and certainly unproven, claim Aleister said "I am vexed" on the deathbed. That hardly constitutes his life being a total mess. I am honestly asking because I don't know. I know a little about Crowley and even less about the other two.

Even if their lives were total messes and it was the result of some 'will to power' philosophy, in order for you to make a strong case we'd have to critique the religious in a similar manner. Can we not find examples of religious people whose lives were a mess? Who 'fell apart' before they died? I am quite confident we could...

Fair is fair.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I don't have the time, but they were anecdotes I ran across about people with satanic proclitivites..

We are moving on now from any "religious" conceptions or of God as the Great Other.

Please discard that axe you're grinding, because it don't grind here anymore.

God Bless,

NAM

reply to post by bb23108

But before moving away from the Biblical text.. Curious. How do you interpret these sayings attributed to Jesus from the Gospel of John (with emphasis on the underlined text)?

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

John 17:20-26
www.biblegateway.com...

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Don't know why I bothered. Preach on.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
John 17:20-26
www.biblegateway.com...

Great quotes there! I might have used those in my argument with you about self-transcendence as taught by Jesus not being different from certain other mystical traditions!

Anyway, my sense of the underlined quote is that Jesus is ecstatically proclaiming his oneness with the Divine, prior to any thing or world arising - utterly absorbed in the Unconditional Divine Conscious Light, Love, Acausal Reality.

reply to post by bb23108

One more question: The "glory" he described there from the Garden of Gethsemane, being in anticipation of the cross was um "gory" you might say. How are we to behold that as "glory" or his glorification, or even our own glorification with him in his love for us?

What do you think of that, because it's generally a wall of anti-Christian ignorance I run up against time and again, but I can see how people have a rather hard time wrapping their head around it. Your thoughts on this and the rest of it all (ALL) are appreciated. Thanks.

Edit to add: Unless he's referring not the horrible ordeal, but to his triumphant exit from the tomb three days later having threaded the eye of the needle.. ?

Bear in mind he's referring to this shared glory as something seen something witnessed that they would "behold", which implies something more than just an inward realization.

Bodhisatva comes to mind here.. but as a one time only deal (no need to reincarnate thereafter i.e.: at the right hand of the power)

Loving Regards (with humor),

NAM

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Don't know why I bothered. Preach on.

Hang in there Lucid, and dear reader too - because if we keep on going who knows it might be enough eventually, when we "ring the bell together" to bring you (us, me) to tears of joyful celebration and love as the very simplicity on the far side of chaos or complexity, but as a mirthful joke that only keeps on getting better once you get it, and then you'll know with the humor of understanding, that the person we refer to as Jesus is also the very best part of we ourselves - and then laughing, crying and laughing some more, we look around and behold "God" is our very condition, and an amuzing one at that, as a "conumdrum" as you've referred to it.

We can't not resolve it eventually in other words, as an inevitability, like the joke that's funny even before it's told.

If we're open to it, we always find what we seek, and when we knock fervently the door IS opened to us, and that gateway access point is a real evolutionary principal and the doorway into a whole new realm and domain of creative freedom of expression and all new possibility - an open world, the precious ocean pearl found at last (and possessed, with everything we used to "own") And it was me (to me, or in your case, you) all along, and the party and the celebration really was for me (with a love before the foundation of the world), but it's a pretty #ty party if there's no one but you there, so in truth the party isn't for me, it's for YOU! Welcome! (doorman look)


To you (both to you Lucid and the readership), may you find that which you seek and, on finding it have the courage and the audacity, to sell off everything else you "own" (attachments and even ideas), to have and now own that one precious thing that's the very best of the best that the world and life has to offer (in store) and relative to which there is no compare..

To YOU!

I love you.

There's nothing else I can do.

There's nothing else that makes any SENSE!

That's the crazy part of it all.

It's what we were afraid of all along, our inauthentic self that is, but that's funny because it means that we are fools for the truth, willing to be self deprecating in the most appropriate way, so as to be gracious and kind and to rise to the occasion of doing unto others as we would have then do unto us - I mean like if it's also to us, then wouldn't it be wise to raise the bar a little?

It's so funny when we realize that the joke's on us, or on our former selves, but without any condemnation whatsoever only absolute unconditional loving acceptance and where needed forgiveness, so there are tears of sorrow and sadness and regret as well as tears of absolute hilarity at our the expense of our prior ignorance and absurdity, so embedded in those very tears of sadness - is also the hand that wipes away those tears from our eye and encourages us to laugh and smile, and grow and playfully create and cocreate together - having fun laying down the very foundation of heaven on earth in other words, that's what it amounts to, even as a purely logical and rational or sane, proposition.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
One more question: The "glory" he described there from the Garden of Gethsemane, being in anticipation of the cross was um "gory" you might say. How are we to behold that as "glory" or his glorification, or even our own glorification with him in his love for us?

Jesus personified selflessness, so I would have to say he is speaking of the glory of beholding the Divine, not the glorification of others or even himself. Only the Glory of God would have mattered to him. This is shown in this quote of your quote here:

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Jesus was Spiritual Master to his disciples. Many people seem to have a hard time with this concept, but even in the Bible the disciples called him Master. It is certainly indicated in the Bible that Jesus transmitted Blessing to them in a spiritual revelation culminating in the initiate seeing what the Bible refers to as the morning star. That star is the God-Light above that he initiated them into. Even after his death on the cross, he would always be resurrected in his followers' eyes because of their initiation into the Divine Spirit Light above, that Jesus was already one with - beyond the gross body-mind.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Bear in mind he's referring to this shared glory as something seen something witnessed that they would "behold", which implies something more than just an inward realization.

I cannot assume that Jesus physically ascended beyond some clouds as many Christians believe. Why would he, for one, plus how could he? Where would he be going to? Way up into the sky - to another planet? Keep in mind that back then the mythology about heaven was that the sky was a ceiling and the stars were heavenly lights hanging from that ceiling, and that if you went up high enough into the sky, you would be in heaven. Well, we know better now.

So what Jesus must be referring to is the spiritual ascent he was not only the Master of, but also transmitted and initiated his disciples into. Their confessions of seeing their beloved Master were that they saw him in his true spirit form, quite alive and free. Or perhaps Jesus did not actually die and his close friends took him away, nursed him back to health and he went elsewhere. Some say India, who knows...

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Bodhisatva comes to mind here.. but as a one time only deal (no need to reincarnate thereafter i.e.: at the right hand of the power)

This whole matter of Jesus saving everyone is an interesting topic. Another thread possibility, but in short, Jesus was not relieving people of their responsibilities for real spiritual practice in this life. He was gifting them with the means to go beyond this gross suffering existence.

If those two commandments relative to love are fully lived, there would be many more people drawn into the mystical aspects of Jesus' message. But until the body-mind is ready for such Blessing, through real preparation of the whole body, mind, heart, and soul turned to the Divine in love, and also love of others as the same one - there is less likelihood of the Divine Spirit awakening the heart and filling the being with Who Jesus was initiating his disciples into. Some confess of instances of these moments, but Jesus was looking for serious disciples to really move out of their stuckness in this world for good, not just instances of feeling good each Sunday or whatever.

It's heartening to hear of someone interested in the mystical aspects of Jesus' teachings. It could very well be what helps to rejuvenate Christianity - back to Jesus' core teachings with a real understanding of what he was offering. The early Gnostics got this, but it all went underground, except in some isolated instances. Such teachings should be freely offered to all Christians as they were a gift from their Master. Where are the true practitioners of this preparation and initiation? Maybe there are many, I don't know. But I do think this is what the second coming of Jesus must be about - not Jesus in the body coming back to do what he already did - but those willing to fully prepare for and accept his esoteric offering of the Light above..