Paul was a murderer

reply to post by Logarock


There is extensive evidence, as I have previously cited, that has Paul taking a 3 year hiatus to study with the Essenes. To do this, one must take the vow of the Nazarite. At the end of the training, one is released from their vow, and shaves their head. This really makes sense, for Paul to study with the Essenes, if he wanted to be taken seriously by early Christians, he would have had to do something to atone for his previous sins. This is what Paul did to be accepted into the early Christian community.

Josephus also did this, as he was initiated into the Essene Brotherhood too. The Essenes offered a common spiritual retreat of which many wealthy Jews partook. The also did rehabilitation of outcasts such as adulterers, thieves, and rebellious teens. After their 3 years, if they succeeded, they were welcomed back into society. The Essenes were part of Jewish society, even though they were weirdly elite.

Originally posted by Logarock

Messiah closed out parts of the law that only he could fullfill, sacrifices/atonement ect i.e.

I disagree. The prophets clearly show that there will be sacrifices, including sin and atonement (see Ezekiel 40:39; 42:13; 43:19, 21, 22, 25; 44:27, 29; 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25; 46:20, Zech 14:16-22) upon His return.

If He is the same yesterday, today, and forever as Yaqob (James) tells us, and He was the lamb sacrificed before the foundations of the universe as Yochanon (John) tells us, then future sacrifices can't be an affront to Him anymore than they were when He commanded them.

Furthermore, Yeshua said that not one jot or tittle would pass until ALL is fulfilled, and heaven and earth would pass before that. Not a bit here and a bit there.

Lastly, the abomination of desolation must be set up before His return. Notice that the abomination is NOT the sacrifice, but what ends the sacrifice.

His meaning to Peter to "call no more unclean what I have made clean" was that He had now made atonement for all of man and here is where the door opens.

I agree! Finally someone who does not say that this passage refers to eating that which is unclean!

The rest of the law...thou shalt not ect....were confirmed by Paul in his writting on the law..."Is the Law good? In every way"

I suggest that the whole Torah is as applicable as it has ever been. One may claim that because there is no temple, the sacrifices have been done away with, but I say that this is not so. The sacrifices were also taken away during the Babylonian exile. And faced with the totality of Scripture, it clearly shows that there will be a return to sacrifice.

but we are no more justified by the law or justified by it as the Jews held themselves to be justifed by it.

No one was ever justified by the law. See Galatians 2.

Paul taught "the law of the spirit"...

I agree. So what is the law of the spirit?

Romans 8 tells us that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Not a part of the law of God. That is your carnal mind speaking. No. The law of spirit is the whole law.

and that even the gentiles in their natural spiritual condition understand the law...thou shalt not ect.

I disagree. What Paul said is that when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

When those who were not given the law do some things that are written in the law, it becomes a law to them, and thus it becomes breakable, making even the gentiles not able to be justified by law. Not all in the natural and spiritual condition understand the law. There are places in the world who do not have Torah and homosexuality is just fine. Unclean meats is awesome. Incest is not wrong, They don't keep Sabbath. Murder is seen as okay. Etc, etc.

In history however the Jews as well as the other Hebrew tribes were justifed by faith, the faith of Abraham. Paul was simply going behind the law to show where the real foundation justification was palced. Even the Jews when arguing with Jesus, as they could not condemn by the law, went behind the law to Abraham to justify themselves but their justification was after the flesh, bloodlines and not by faith which was Abrahams real justification.

I agree!

We are no more like the Exodus but as the prophet said.."In those days they shall no longer say blessed is the lord that brought us out of egypt but bless is the Lord that brought us out of the North country".

I disagree, as this is a literal prophecy that has yet to come to pass.

Egypt, not the north country, has always been a symbol of slavery and thus of sin to the people of Israel. Hence, the analogy works perfectly well, especially when you consider the time at which Yeshua's blood was shed.

In the same way at one time exodus was a spritual meaning so now the return form our failure to keep the law and out condemnation and scattering do to this failure have come to an end and we are now restored out of that status as outcast.

I can agree, but I suggest that that is yet future


Peace be unto you friend! Good stuff!

reply to post by Logarock

Defame the nazerites. The nazerites were out of the loop and were as about as useless as tits on a bore at that point.

They most certainly were not "out of loop"! They were, in fact the first Christians and were held in high esteem in Rome because of their ties to Artemis, as previously shown. They were known, by Paul, as the Ebionites. And Paul was an enemy to the Ebionites.

One offshoot of James' ministry were the Ebionites, a sect whose name derives from the Hebrew "ebionim" meaning 'the meek' or 'the poor'. They were the Jewish Christians, for whom Jesus was looked to by them with Messianic hope for their nation. They hoped that in Jesus they would realize the Messianic hope of Israel, but they held no beliefs that Jesus was some sort of 'Son of God' in some Greek way of thinking where he was "deity in the flesh." There is a big difference between "son of God" in Jewish understanding and "Son of God" in Gentile theology. They followed the Mosaic law with great zeal, and had their own "Gospel" known in various contexts as the 'Gospel of the Hebrews', 'Gospel of the Ebionites' or the 'Gospel of the Nazarenes'.
paulproblem.faithweb.com...

The Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of mostly Jewish/Israelite followers of John the Baptizer and later Jesus, who were concentrated in Palestine and surrounding regions and led by "James the Just" (the oldest brother of Jesus), and flourished between the years 30-80 C.E. They were zealous for the Torah and continued to walk in all the mitzvot (commandments) as enlightened by their Rabbi and Teacher, but accepted non-Jews into their fellowship on the basis of some version of the Noachide Laws (Acts 15 and 21).

The term Ebionite (from Hebrew 'Evyonim) means "Poor Ones" and was taken from the teachings of Jesus: "Blessed are you Poor Ones, for yours is the Kingdom of God" based on Isaiah 66:2 and other related texts that address a remnant group of faithful ones. Nazarene comes from the Hebrew word Netzer (drawn from Isaiah 11:1) and means "a Branch"—so the Nazarenes were the "Branchites" or followers of the one they believed to be the Branch. The term Nazarene was likely the one first used for these followers of Jesus, as evidenced by Acts 24:5 where Paul is called "the ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes."
religiousstudies.uncc.edu...

reply to post by windword


Like I said.

reply to post by Logarock


You have not made your point. Now you're just covering your eyes and ears and singing LALALA to yourself!

Jesus was an Essene Nazarite! There is no other way to look at it, in light of the evidence.

Originally posted by Shimri


Egypt, not the north country, has always been a symbol of slavery and thus of sin to the people of Israel. Hence, the analogy works perfectly well, especially when you consider the time at which Yeshua's blood was shead.

Yeshuas blood was shead when the jews were under total bondage.....again....and the rest of the nation was scattered to the four winds. As it was, for missing Christ they lost the last bit of ground they held there and the temple.

Even if future, the type is not in Egypt or coming out of egypt. The type, Israle would be comming out of captivity....again. A diffrent sort of thing than we had in exodus.

Taking the analogy to its full then we are are bound to fail after comming out of Egypt and becoming a nation under the laws of God, his prophets, his priests. You see? Its a second failure if one were to call the conditions in Egypt a failure. God brought them out gave them the rules, made them great and then they failed him and rejected Him. Quite a different scenario than Egypt but one that must be embraced if we are going to embrace Egypt as a type.

In fact conditions that were present in Egypt, that were never purged out is what lead to the failure. They never came out of sin. Their virginity was taken in Egypt as one prophet put it but their "skirt had not been lifted", God passes by their sin as they came into the land. They were ever looking back to Egypt. In fact as the peophet says they had never hated themselves for being idol worshipers in Egypt or when the got out of Egypt and filled the whole land God gave them with idols. There is never a national repentence of these sins untill the later days, as the prophet says. There is your whole type in the 2nd return of the nation. Egypt and comming out was a period of accommodation of sin in the face of the law that had its apex with the comming of Christ and His tossing out of the vineyard.

I am aware, very aware and have been for a long time about the Egypt type of sin. But it fails as it is only a small part of the picture that must be taken as a whole. The full manifestation of their sin and the fact that the law could not save or justify never happened to them comming out of Egypt. They went from being debtors to sin to debtors to do the whole law and they failed and their nation was taken. Now they are back and its time to say "blessed is the Lord that brought us out of the North country".

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Logarock

 

You have not made your point. Now you're just covering your eyes and ears and singing LALALA to yourself!

Jesus was an Essene Nazarite! There is no other way to look at it, in light of the evidence.

Oh yea. The same essenes you say kicked out John who Jesus called the greatest man ever born to a woman. And John never thought he was the christ. He always said "there is one comming after me". John never thought he was christ and the guy that said that needs to learn to read.

reply to post by Logarock

Oh yea. The same essenes you say kicked out John who Jesus called the greatest man ever born to a woman. And John never thought he was the christ. He always said "there is one comming after me". John never thought he was christ and the guy that said that needs to learn to read.

If what Josephus said is true, then it possible that young John the Baptist may have thought, since an angel visted his barren mother and promised a special child, that he was greater than he actually was. After all, he was Elijah, right? Elijah was so arrogant that he called on bears to kill a group of young boys because they called him "baldy!"

John the Baptist was skilled in harvesting wild honey! He very well may have learned that, and other survival skills, from the Essenes, that raised him after Herod had his father, Zacharia, killed. Martha was old, remember.

He may have been outcasted by the Essenes in his youth, and through honest prayer, seeking the truth and repentance, he could have been, according to Josephus, welcomed back into the brotherhood. He can make this leap because his followers, according to Josephus, donned the white robes, after their baptisms, and wore them as a sign that they were his followers. That was the Essene way.

If John had been raised in Qumran and Jesus educated in the north, at Mount Carmel, which is the traditional line of thought, then they would not have known each other personally, but knew of each other's reputations. This would be why John the Baptist did not recognize Jesus when they first met, but he acknowledged Jesus as the "Master," as did the greater Essene community.

Another Linky Dink

reply to post by Logarock


Could you point me toward a verse where Jesus said women must stay quiet and submissive while in church? Or where he said being gay is a sin? How about where you have to believe he died on the cross to get to heaven?

Romans 3
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Where did Jesus ever say this? This verse written by Paul contradicts what Jesus said to a lawyer.

Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Oops, I guess Jesus forgot to tell him about believing and having faith in his death too. Strange since Paul insists that only faith will get you into heaven.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No you gave me two mistranslated NIV versions that were nothing . And that is all . You are reading something from a hostile writer about Paul without specifics .

reply to post by SimonPeter


I only posted one of the examples from the link, which includes 25 examples in all. You obviously didn't bother to read it, otherwise you would know that.

I'll post the link one more time, just for you. Link

Maybe you'll actually read it this time?

reply to post by windword


I am sure that your information is written as fact and presented to you who are looking for some aberration of the truth to try to destroy Christianity . But the fact is, the facts have been twisted to get the meaning that the author desired . Jesus Christ is the most written about person ever . The Jews have defamed him and all who supported him from the beginning just as they did at his trial and now you seek to do the same . Whats new ?These same people have embarked on an effort to destroy Christianity in America 200 years ago following their Protocols and if you say anything about it they call you antisemitic,. Again whats new ? Now your at it .

reply to post by SimonPeter


How have the Jews defamed him if today he his the most famous and loved man in history? You're mistaking people like windword and I for someone like Paul. It's so obvious what he did, yet you still keep denying it and can't see it. That's what religion does to people, it scares them into submission, making them "know" hell is waiting if they think any differently.

I'm sure the protocols you keep talking about were followed through with 2,000 years ago, and they succeeded with Paul.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I found your dribble posted to another individual . I did not read through all of them though . I took my bible and your dribble and compared them . Your anti Gentile author has cherry picked parts of verses to try to defame Paul , but if you use the whole verse in context there is no foul .
I personally feel that you have embarked on a mission to destroy the Gentile and his connection and faith in Jesus or that you are of diminished capacity . Next you will attack the Gospel as a fraud .
All I have to say is Go Play !

reply to post by SimonPeter


Do you have a problem with Jesus and John the Baptist having been educated by the Essenes of the day?

What do you think Jesus would think about this advice from Paul?

1 Corinthians 5:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Or this?

2 Thessalonians 3:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Did Jesus restrict who of the masses of 5,000 should eat when he multiplied the fish and bread loaves?

Matthew 6:14 King James Version
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So why does Paul say this?

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

reply to post by windword


I believe you also are on this site working to destroy the Christian Faith and the Messiah and the Gentile connection to Jesus through Paul . You are a destroyer .
Your mission here is obvious .

reply to post by SimonPeter


Is that the best you can come up with? You can't refute the fact that Paul continually contradicts Jesus and has undermined his message.

You are a typical, judgmental, intolerant Christian, and, your type of Christianity has done more to harm the planet and it's population than the Jews or any other religion on Earth!

My experience with Christians, such as yourself, is that they are destructive, seek to punish individuals who don't agree with them, hold grudges and are the furthest thing from the Christian values that Jesus taught, thanks to your mentor, Paul.

You really can't hide you faulty Christian values and your blackened heart behind a veil of piety. Your conventional biases are obvious, and the only thing you have left, to defend your intolerant viewpoint, is name calling and accusations that don't hold water.

I actually feel sorry for you and hope that you, eventually, find what your looking for, perhaps in the next life!

reply to post by windword


Those indictments against Paul are baseless .You know it too! Your work is through here , people know your works .
You laid your whole hand out when you said you did not believe Jesus was born of a virgin and died and was resurrected on the 3rd day . You stupidly ended any relevance you ever might have had in matters of Jesus or Paul with me or any other Christian . You may want to seek other work .

reply to post by SimonPeter


You still haven't read it! Saying the link I posted only had 2 examples shows that. Now you claim to have compared it to the bible. How did you compare it when you never read it?

This will be my last reply to you, because you are obviously delusional.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by windword

 

Those indictments against Paul are baseless.

No they're not, and you can't refute them.

You know it too! Your work is through here,

I know nothing of the sort!

people know your works.

Yes, my viewpoint has been well established.

You laid your whole hand out when you said you did not believe Jesus was born of a virgin and died and was resurrected on the 3rd day . You stupidly ended any relevance you ever might have had in matters of Jesus or Paul with me or any other Christian . You may want to seek other work .

Your Bible and your Christian example have proven the doctrine of resurrection and Jesus' blood being that which magically forgives the sins of believers is vapid, empty and an excuse to behave badly toward others.

If I was to stop posting, it wouldn't stop others who mirror my viewpoint from posting. You will always come across individuals who do not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection. It's a ridiculous system that denies personal responsibility, gleefully awaits the destruction of the world and wantonly hopes for the eternal torture of it's critics.

You can't get rid of me, or people like me, through insults and name calling. You;re only making yourself look bad.