The Vanity of Enlightenment

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion

 

I am enlightened to my strange enjoyment of raw hot dogs dipped in strawberry yogurt a few years ago.

...Thanks. I was eating.

I dunno, I also find raw hot dogs to be tasty. Never tried it with strawberry yogurt though.. Dont knock it til ya try it!

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
However, not a single person against the OP has attempted to convince me with rationality, only with insult and more unsubstantiated claims.

"You're wrong" just doesn't do it for me.

"You're vain" just doesn't do it for me either.

I for one have not tried to convince you or insult you. I've tried to advise you to let go of binary oppositions and categorizations and social conditioning. Such as rational/irrational. They are just ways that you, that is to say the ego-self, tries to gain control of life, the universe, and everything. Even during your aseticism, you weren't able to let go of control.

Thomas Anderson let go of control and took the red pill. That's how he gained control in a paradoxical sort of way.

Paradox isn't something to be solved or controlled by rationality and definitions and science and categorizations. It's something to be danced in.

edit on 12-2-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

You an Afterinfinity and Ergotheconclusion are awesome and a good asset to the modern spirituality movement, I have learned a lot from the three of you, thank you all!

reply to post by 1nf1del


Awesome!

reply to post by 1nf1del

You an Afterinfinity and Ergotheconclusion are awesome and a good asset to the modern spirituality movement, I have learned a lot from the three of you, thank you all!

And a very warm "thank you" to LesMisanthrope. Spirituality is nothing without a healthy dose of skepticism to curb its enthusiasm - just take a look at Judaism and Islam!

Enlightment can be gain in the spirit only, for vanity cometh from this lowtech flesh.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

You an Afterinfinity and Ergotheconclusion are awesome and a good asset to the modern spirituality movement, I have learned a lot from the three of you, thank you all!

And a very warm "thank you" to LesMisanthrope. Spirituality is nothing without a healthy dose of skepticism to curb its enthusiasm - just take a look at Judaism and Islam!

edit on 12-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I agree, I feel like LesMis will find his way sooner or later, he is still searching, that is not a bad thing he will learn lessons along the way but that is the point on the path to enlightenment, faith and understanding in yourself is key!

reply to post by BlueMule

"You're vain" just doesn't do it for me either.

I for one have not tried to convince you or insult you. I've tried to advise you to let go of binary oppositions and categorizations and social conditioning. Such as rational/irrational. They are just ways that you, that is to say the ego-self, tries to gain control of life, the universe, and everything. Even during your aseticism, you weren't able to let go of control.

Thomas Anderson let go of control and took the red pill. That's how he gained control in a paradoxical sort of way.

Paradox isn't something to be solved or controlled by rationality and definitions and science and categorizations. It's something to be danced in.

I didn't call you vain. I tried to prove with arguments that those who take the label 'enlightened' are doing so for vain reasons. If that applies to you, maybe you can prove me wrong instead of dogmatically expressing that I should walk your path or what I should do. Because I've heard it all before. I'm merely pointing something out here.

You've made fun of the 'unenlightened' as if you were somehow better than them. You felt sorry for them as you wallowed in piety. That, to me, is an insult and not enlightenment.

You gotta hand it to unenlightened people. I mean, going through life under the illusion that they are what they think they are... that life is what they think it is. It's tough. It can lead to things like ulcers!

So, to all the unenlightened, I say thanks for agreeing to go through life as if the mask of your persona that you wear day-in-and-day-out is really the real you. It makes being enlightened so much more fun!

Enjoy your paradoxes.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Good to see you in this thread! Yes, I can connect with Einstein's way of thinking. I don't think in words or defined concepts. I think in impressions. My mind is like water, molding itself to changes in temperature and vector, making shapes according to stimuli. These shapes are neither constant nor definable, but they leave a lasting impression that reflects the nature of everything that touches it. And somewhere, deep down, the sand stirs slightly, leaving behind the footprint of an idea. Someday, those footprints will connect and create a mosaic of mystery that, if you study it long enough, will unlock the ancient riddle of being: what does it mean...to mean?

This is how I think.

edit on 12-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

How you think is beautiful. (((HUGS)))

The ancient riddle of "being" seen through your impressions gave me chills.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

"You're vain" just doesn't do it for me either.

I for one have not tried to convince you or insult you. I've tried to advise you to let go of binary oppositions and categorizations and social conditioning. Such as rational/irrational. They are just ways that you, that is to say the ego-self, tries to gain control of life, the universe, and everything. Even during your aseticism, you weren't able to let go of control.

Thomas Anderson let go of control and took the red pill. That's how he gained control in a paradoxical sort of way.

Paradox isn't something to be solved or controlled by rationality and definitions and science and categorizations. It's something to be danced in.

I didn't call you vain. I tried to prove with arguments that those who take the label 'enlightened' are doing so for vain reasons. If that applies to you, maybe you can prove me wrong instead of dogmatically expressing that I should walk your path or what I should do. Because I've heard it all before. I'm merely pointing something out here.

You've made fun of the 'unenlightened' as if you were somehow better than them. You felt sorry for them as you wallowed in piety. That, to me, is an insult and not enlightenment.

You gotta hand it to unenlightened people. I mean, going through life under the illusion that they are what they think they are... that life is what they think it is. It's tough. It can lead to things like ulcers!

So, to all the unenlightened, I say thanks for agreeing to go through life as if the mask of your persona that you wear day-in-and-day-out is really the real you. It makes being enlightened so much more fun!

Enjoy your paradoxes.

I think this point has already been made for you, I don't think there are many here who will claim to be enlightened, if they are claiming to be enlightened you can rest assured they are not really enlightened!

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Enjoy your paradoxes.

Enjoy your frustration.

Is it me, or does it seem as "enlightenment" is a type of religion/philosophy with all kinds of dogma attached to it, per each perspective?

Every single person you talk to about the path to enlightenment says something different. So, lets have different denominations of enlightenment. lol

To each his own but for others to say to someone, "one day you will find it", really says a lot about that person. Meaning that person would be the one who is deemed not enlightened.

It's like talking to a Christian (no offense).

What a roller coaster.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Is it me, or does it seem as "enlightenment" is a type of religion/philosophy with all kinds of dogma attached to it, per each perspective?

Every single person you talk to about the path to enlightenment says something different. So, lets have different denominations of enlightenment. lol

To each his own but for others to say to someone, "one day you will find it", really says a lot about that person. Meaning that person would be the one who is deemed not enlightened.

It's like talking to a Christian (no offense).

What a roller coaster.

Is it not there to be discovered?

reply to post by 1nf1del


"Is it not there to be discovered"

Be more specific.... is what not there to be discovered?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

"You're vain" just doesn't do it for me either.

I for one have not tried to convince you or insult you. I've tried to advise you to let go of binary oppositions and categorizations and social conditioning. Such as rational/irrational. They are just ways that you, that is to say the ego-self, tries to gain control of life, the universe, and everything. Even during your aseticism, you weren't able to let go of control.

Thomas Anderson let go of control and took the red pill. That's how he gained control in a paradoxical sort of way.

Paradox isn't something to be solved or controlled by rationality and definitions and science and categorizations. It's something to be danced in.

I didn't call you vain.

No, you just sort of hinted at it in an off-hand way.

I tried to prove with arguments that those who take the label 'enlightened' are doing so for vain reasons. If that applies to you, maybe you can prove me wrong instead of dogmatically expressing that I should walk your path or what I should do. Because I've heard it all before. I'm merely pointing something out here.

Prove you wrong? With what, science? Science is too limited and clumsy.

You put forth effort to gain enlightenment but were unable to let go of control. So you failed. You thought that you, a mere ego-self, were in a position to categorize and judge. What arrogance.

And now here you are, trying to gain some consolation by trying to find a way to look down your nose at people who have something you couldn't get. You are rational, where they are irrational. You are humble, where they are vain. You are smart, where they are dumb. Have fun with your consolations.

I'm not trying to make fun of you or insult you. I'm trying to learn about myself from bantering with you, in a paradoxical sort of way. And yes it's fun.

reply to post by 1nf1del


Not 'there' but eternally 'here'.

Uncover what is real.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Is it me, or does it seem as "enlightenment" is a type of religion/philosophy with all kinds of dogma attached to it, per each perspective?

Every single person you talk to about the path to enlightenment says something different. So, lets have different denominations of enlightenment. lol

It's like anything else that is quite loaded now... we have to set our boundaries on "what" we are talking about. "God" is a useless word now. "Enlightenment" is a useless word now. "Love" is even pretty useless.

"God" is a label some people latch to for "everything that is" and believe it to be conscious.
"Universe" is a label some people latch to for "everything that is" and believe it to be unconscious.

So what the argument has always *really* been about is... "Is Everything That Is... Conscious?" Because if so, then clearly we'd be better off learning to talk to it than burn it. If it isn't... then our consciousness is really freaking weird and should be given more attention than any other research endeavor.

So with "Enlightenment"... what is it the person is seeking? Cross stitching? Federal Reserve deceit? Achieve that state of experience where they suddenly see themselves and the universe as one being? That is indeed one "enlightenment" (aka experience/understanding) to be had... just as a person can seek to be enlightened to the experience of hot dog in yogurt. But nobody else can taste the hot dog but yourself.

Put in this context it is focused on "whatcha tryin ta do?" rather than some war between which stance must ultimately be proven right at the expense of the other.

It is a problem with how we approach every conversation on topics that have historically or culturally loaded words and in particular where there is a clear distinction between someone who has "gotten" Calculus and someone who still doesn't see it and finding it difficult to put it to use. Or someone who tried the hot dog and someone who didn't. They are fundamentally the exact same aspect of "enlightenment", just different portions.

It's our approach to these sort of discussions where personal experience is the only confirmation... and that's tough so we fall back on arguing about word choices rather than trying to get to the underlying "thing in itself".

It is possible for a person to walk away with perpetual confidence that they and the universe are one... and thus feel they are perpetually enlightened on that point in the way someone who has learned Calculus walks around every day aware and enlightened (and filtering everything through) their understanding of Calculus. Doesn't make those who haven't gotten Calculus "bad"... but it does mean they aren't seeing something that others do and it affects everything they do on some level.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

"Is it not there to be discovered"

Be more specific.... is what not there to be discovered?

Sorry I was commenting on this statement.

"To each his own but for others to say to someone, "one day you will find it", really says a lot about that person. Meaning that person would be the one who is deemed not enlightened."

Is the path not there to be discovered?

reply to post by BlueMule

And now here you are, trying to gain some consolation by trying to find a way to look down your nose at people who have something you couldn't get. You are rational, where they are irrational. You are humble, where they are vain. You are smart, where they are dumb. Have fun with your consolations.

It seems we are a lot alike you and I. Imagine that, a labelled unenlightened behaving as a self-proclaimed enlightened does. it seems the only difference between us is our tastes.

I'm not trying to make fun of you or insult you. I'm trying to learn about myself from bantering with you, in a paradoxical sort of way. And yes it's fun.

Absolutely.

It's our approach to these sort of discussions where personal experience is the only confirmation... and that's tough so we fall back on arguing about word choices rather than trying to get to the underlying "thing in itself".

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


Personal experience IS the only confirmation.... so true. Observation is key.

My experience can be shared, however some minds are not open to another's perspective. I all that narrow minded. Sure, we are all guilty of being narrow at times but for the one who can open them self to a new light is what I deem growth. Again, words make a difference. Others may not call it "growth" but "enlightenment".

Definitely a play of words, in my opinion.

Sorry I was commenting on this statement. "To each his own but for others to say to someone, "one day you will find it", really says a lot about that person. Meaning that person would be the one who is deemed not enlightened." Is the path not there to be discovered?

reply to post by 1nf1del


Oh, ok. Just want to make sure we are on the same page as I don't want to assume.

You are asking me... Is the path not there to be discovered?

Personally speaking the "path" is open for debate. Each perspective will have a path that is unique to another.

There are many paths along the journey, however where is the destination point to say you are there?

Personally, I don't see an end point.