The Vanity of Enlightenment

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

It seems we are a lot alike you and I. Imagine that, a labelled unenlightened behaving as a self-proclaimed enlightened does. it seems the only difference between us is our tastes.

Yes it does. But I've been outside of the Matrix, so to speak, and back again. I'm Neo, and you're a coppertop. That's not vanity, btw. It's honesty.

You've already rejected my advice. But I'll give you a prescription to consider. Just in case.

1. switch to an all organic diet (if you haven't already), and then go on a ten-day brown-rice fast.
2. enroll in kundalini yoga.
3. let go of concepts, categorizations, binary oppositions, and anything else you fear to lose.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Sorry I was commenting on this statement. "To each his own but for others to say to someone, "one day you will find it", really says a lot about that person. Meaning that person would be the one who is deemed not enlightened." Is the path not there to be discovered?

reply to post by 1nf1del

 

Oh, ok. Just want to make sure we are on the same page as I don't want to assume.

You are asking me... Is the path not there to be discovered?

Personally speaking the "path" is open for debate. Each perspective will have a path that is unique to another.

There are many paths along the journey, however where is the destination point to say you are there?

Personally, I don't see an end point.

When I found my path it was illuminated, when you find a path in the woods that leads to the top of the mountain you just know, there are signs along the pathway to let you know you are on the right path, if you've experienced this you know exactly what I'm talking about, there is no destination, in the immortal words of Steven Tyler "Life's a journey, not a destination!".

Originally posted by 1nf1del
if they are claiming to be enlightened you can rest assured they are not really enlightened!

So very true. Its a very interesting psychological aspect of all of this. Much like someone else said "A man was awarded a badge of humility but was stripped of it for accepting it.." That was Sly1one. His whole post was pretty good, as are all in this thread. Especially the raw hot dog/strawberry yogurt one. Still havent tried it though.

That said, I definitely see some faces here that have previously claimed to have "achieved enlightenment" in no uncertain terms, so its good to keep that in mind.

Originally posted by Serdgiam

Originally posted by 1nf1del
if they are claiming to be enlightened you can rest assured they are not really enlightened!

So very true. Its a very interesting psychological aspect of all of this. Much like someone else said "A man was awarded a badge of humility but was stripped of it for accepting it.." That was Sly1one. His whole post was pretty good, as are all in this thread. Especially the raw hot dog/strawberry yogurt one. Still havent tried it though.

That said, I definitely see some faces here that have previously claimed to have "achieved enlightenment" in no uncertain terms, so its good to keep that in mind.

Enlightenment cannot be self proclaimed, it can only be recognized by others!

When I found my path it was illuminated, when you find a path in the woods that leads to the top of the mountain you just know, there are signs along the pathway to let you know you are on the right path, if you've experienced this you know exactly what I'm talking about, there is no destination, in the immortal words of Steven Tyler "Life's a journey, not a destination!".

reply to post by 1nf1del


A path has many different roads one can take and each choice brings about a different path. Its like a maze and sometimes people get lost.

The journey I have taken thus far has had many "illuminated" experiences that have touched me deep into my core. Its a feeling that all is as it should be. I know exactly what you are talking about. Those "ah ha" moments are always reflected upon in a deep way.

I do not consider those experiences as enlightened though. I consider them to be a connection between my flesh and spirit that allows the deeper meaning to be reflected upon.

Originally posted by MamaJ

When I found my path it was illuminated, when you find a path in the woods that leads to the top of the mountain you just know, there are signs along the pathway to let you know you are on the right path, if you've experienced this you know exactly what I'm talking about, there is no destination, in the immortal words of Steven Tyler "Life's a journey, not a destination!".

reply to post by 1nf1del

 

A path has many different roads one can take and each choice brings about a different path. Its like a maze and sometimes people get lost.

The journey I have taken thus far has had many "illuminated" experiences that have touched me deep into my core. Its a feeling that all is as it should be. I know exactly what you are talking about. Those "ah ha" moments are always reflected upon in a deep way.

I do not consider those experiences as enlightened though. I consider them to be a connection between my flesh and spirit that allows the deeper meaning to be reflected upon.

edit on 12-2-2013 by MamaJ because: (no reason given)

Because that is not enlightenment, it is only your awakening, your path TO enlightenment!

Originally posted by 1nf1del
Enlightenment cannot be self proclaimed, it can only be recognized by others!

Agreed, the badge is stripped the moment it is mentioned. Even then though, I have my doubts it can even be recognized by others. I have basically said that I feel everyone is enlightened in that they take part in the process. In that way, there is no "specialness" to realizing the process that we have limited ourselves from seeing in the first place. I dont mean that process is any less incredible, but realizing what was there all along is nothing of particular note and limiting it to a singular moment directly limits other moments to being much less important.

Its like the irony of someone saying they practice Zen.

At best, I see it as being a return to baseline. At worst, a way to deceive ourselves and perhaps even others.

Originally posted by Serdgiam

Originally posted by 1nf1del
Enlightenment cannot be self proclaimed, it can only be recognized by others!

Agreed, the badge is stripped the moment it is mentioned. Even then though, I have my doubts it can even be recognized by others. I have basically said that I feel everyone is enlightened in that they take part in the process. In that way, there is no "specialness" to realizing the process that we have limited ourselves from seeing in the first place. I dont mean that process is any less incredible, but realizing what was there all along is nothing of particular note and limiting it to a singular moment directly limits other moments to being much less important.

Its like the irony of someone saying they practice Zen.

At best, I see it as being a return to baseline. At worst, a way to deceive ourselves and perhaps even others.

Other awakened people will recognize somebody who is awakened!

Originally posted by Serdgiam
...realizing the process that we have limited ourselves from seeing in the first place...

...but realizing what was there all along is nothing of particular note...

At best, I see it as being a return to baseline.

W00sh... right to the heart. Beautiful!

We are not all walking around in the dark, let your heart light shine and you will be seen!

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


reply to post by MamaJ

Is it me, or does it seem as "enlightenment" is a type of religion/philosophy with all kinds of dogma attached to it, per each perspective?

Every single person you talk to about the path to enlightenment says something different. So, lets have different denominations of enlightenment. lol

To LesMisanthrope: I linked you to this post because I wanted to explain this to you as well. I want to make sure I have explained it as clearly as possible, so as to rule out lack of clarity as the obstacle for your comprehension. If you still disagree, then it is on principle, and we must agree to disagree. I am okay with this - I really have no choice.

To MamaJ: Yeah, the word "enlightened" is just as effective as the phrase "spiritually successful". It's purely subjective according to each individual's values. Which is why part of enlightenment is understanding, because you have to understand why a person might choose a different path than you do. This encourages acceptance of diversity, which is always helpful in the long run.

Everything has the potential to be like Christianity. Christianity just helps its followers feel easier about falling prey to their flaws by convincing them that these flaws can be filtered. As a "New Ager", I feel these flaws can be hacked and exploited for the positive benefit of all parties involved.

As I have said before: enlightenment, to myself, is a perspective that allows an individual to coexist harmoniously with elements that might otherwise cause distress to that individual. It emphasizes the core nature of the universe - order through chaos. Use that which is ugly to refine that which is beautiful, and everything will be beautiful in its own way. There is nothing that does not have purpose, because there is nothing which cannot be given purpose. The only limit is how far one is willing to go to accept something for its purpose. That is why enlightenment comes from within...the first and foremost obstacle is what you are willing to do.

I hope that makes sense.

reply to post by 1nf1del


Maybe, but then again.. maybe not. As we are individual parts of the whole, appearances can be deceiving. What we perceive is filtered through a biased system.

Meaning, "awakened" can point to a plethora of different things and you can see this diversity on ATS. Some feel it is when you wake up from sleeping in the morning. Some feel it is seeing the government, society, or similar as a self-destructive system. Some feel it deals more with spirituality. Are any of them wrong? I dont believe so, I think they are all referring to a similar process that repeats itself.

All of us have areas that we are not aware of or educated on. In that way, we all walk around in some type of "darkness." That is just inherent in being part of the whole, and lacking omniscience.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


I am honored it created beauty in your perspective

Thank you!

reply to post by BlueMule

Yes it does. But I've been outside of the Matrix, so to speak, and back again. I'm Neo, and you're a coppertop. That's not vanity, btw. It's honesty.

Of course it's honesty, Neo. I am officially at a loss for words here. Bravo.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Yes it does. But I've been outside of the Matrix, so to speak, and back again. I'm Neo, and you're a coppertop. That's not vanity, btw. It's honesty.

Of course it's honesty, Neo. I am officially at a loss for words here. Bravo.

Losing words is a good start.

"That for which we find words is something already dead in our hearts." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Originally posted by Serdgiam
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

Maybe, but then again.. maybe not. As we are individual parts of the whole, appearances can be deceiving. What we perceive is filtered through a biased system.

Meaning, "awakened" can point to a plethora of different things and you can see this diversity on ATS. Some feel it is when you wake up from sleeping in the morning. Some feel it is seeing the government, society, or similar as a self-destructive system. Some feel it deals more with spirituality. Are any of them wrong? I dont believe so, I think they are all referring to a similar process that repeats itself.

All of us have areas that we are not aware of or educated on. In that way, we all walk around in some type of "darkness." That is just inherent in being part of the whole, and lacking omniscience.

You don't seem to understand the connection, it's like anything else where people have things in common, if you are disabled all you have to do is talk to somebody for five minutes and you will know, I am a drummer if I talk to somebody online about drumming it is usually obvious to me in the first five minutes whether or not this person is really a drummer or they are lying, there are multiple commonalities to awakening that cannot be mistaken!

Originally posted by 1nf1del
it's like anything else where people have things in common, if you are disabled all you have to do is talk to somebody for five minutes and you will know, I am a drummer if I talk to somebody online about drumming it is usually obvious to me in the first five minutes whether or not this person is really a drummer or they are lying, there are multiple commonalities to awakening that cannot be mistaken!

Exactly right. It is indicative of a process that is applied constantly and continuously in our interactions with others, on every topic you can imagine (literally).

However, appearances can be deceiving. We filter such things through our own bias, inevitably.

edit: Case in point: Someone who is very educated about drums and music theory, if spoken to for a few minutes, could very well lead you to believe they actually play. The only way you would actually know is if you sat at a drum set with them.

Originally posted by Serdgiam


However, appearances can be deceiving. We filter such things through our own bias, inevitably.

You are right, that is a problem for people who are just awakened and don't know what is good information and what is bad, that is why I come to forums like this, at first I wanted to talk with other people like me and get an unbiased view of my own now that I have been on my journey for a while I have come to realize I am able to discern BS from the truth, people like David Icke and Wilcox who are damaging to the new age movement, I distance myself from individuals like them!

Originally posted by Serdgiam


edit: Case in point: Someone who is very educated about drums and music theory, if spoken to for a few minutes, could very well lead you to believe they actually play. The only way you would actually know is if you sat at a drum set with them.

edit on 12-2-2013 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

It's a little more than you know, for instance I could get into a conversation with an imposter about "limb independence" and will know by how they talk about it that they are full of it, I can read engineering books all day but I will never fool an engineer!

Originally posted by 1nf1del
It's a little more than you know, for instance I could get into a conversation with an imposter about "limb independence" and will know by how they talk about it that they are full of it, I can read engineering books all day but I will never fool an engineer!

But what if their perspective on limb independence is based in, say, motorcycle racing or dancing and they applied that knowledge to drums? Their knowledge of such things may come from a completely different perspective than yours, and in that way, it could be deceptive in how much they actually know about the topic if you never looked at in the way they do.

How did an engineer become an engineer? If you read, and comprehended, those engineering books.. I have little doubt they would take you as an engineer. It is, after all, how an engineer becomes an engineer.

Now that we have talked about it a bit, do I play the drums? Do I race motorcycles? Am I an engineer?