The Vanity of Enlightenment

reply to post by 1nf1del

Enlightenment is also seeing the light and trying to lead others who don't see it towards it, there is constructive criticism and there is insulting, you are skating a fine line between the two, you shouldn't hit the puppy or scold him, try to make him understand!

There's the clincher, 1nf1del. Anyone who knows anything about enlightenment, knows you don't make someone understand. You explain - and if they don't get it, then let them find it on their own. It's a lot like love. You stumble across it. And if you suffer along the way, then that's part of the process.

It's clear you don't know as much as you say you do. I wish you steady winds on your journey.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

You already admitted you failed to reach enlightenment, that "idea" is not empty and full of deceit, you also admitted to being vain, all of those that came to help you with the confusion you have as far as spirituality you expected to come in and claim to be "enlightened" that kind of backfired in your face, we are not your enemies, we are your friends trying to lead you to the light until you can see it for yourself, no need to be so hostile!

I'm sorry, but who says LesMisanthrope needs to be your kind of enlightened? You said it, s/he wouldn't know it if s/he saw it. So how does s/he know your way is the right one?

From the looks of it, I would say you're a little off the mark yourself. Maybe you should work on finding your own light before you work on hers/his.

I've already said everbodies path is different, there is no right or wrong path, we are still blind to waht is but some CAN see the light and we can try to help others to see the light, what do you think Shamans do when they "heal" somebody? They are helping them towards the light! It doesn't matter if my perspective looks "off the mark" to you because that's part of being human, fallible, if I don't see the light why criticize?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by 1nf1del

 

Enlightenment is also seeing the light and trying to lead others who don't see it towards it, there is constructive criticism and there is insulting, you are skating a fine line between the two, you shouldn't hit the puppy or scold him, try to make him understand!

There's the clincher, 1nf1del. Anyone who knows anything about enlightenment, knows you don't make someone understand. You explain - and if they don't get it, then let them find it on their own. It's a lot like love. You stumble across it. And if you suffer along the way, then that's part of the process.

It's clear you don't know as much as you say you do. I wish you steady winds on your journey.

edit on 13-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I wasn't saying try to make him understand enlightenment, understand his perspective and try to make him understand your perspective! How can I make him understand enlightenment if I'm not enlightened?

reply to post by 1nf1del


I'm not making him/her understand anything. I explained my position, and I left it at that. The rest is purely discussion.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

In general terms enlightenment can mean almost any kind of knowledge or awareness, but in Buddhism it is a technical term which means something very specific, which can be tested for.

Can you tell us what this something is? I know you mentioned zen, but I figure you would have just said that

Since you are putting me on the spot, Buddhist enlightenment starts with the realization of shunyata, the void nature of phenomena and particularly the void nature of the self. By "void" I mean that nothing that human beings can experience has a nature that stands apart from being dependant on something else. This is called the "dependant origination" of all phenomena.

Everything is made up of parts and the parts are made up of parts and so on. Knowing it intellectually is easy, but realizing it directly is difficult. When one does, there are signs of that, that can be seen by people who are enlightened.

So, in a nutshell, enlightenment is the state of mind attained after the realization of shunyata.

reply to post by BlueMule

Mystical derealization isn't an easy thing to go through. It can drive you mad. If you haven't passed through the 'I must be going mad' phase, if you haven't popped like Neo, and made it through in one piece, then you aren't enlightened.

Hmm, then maybe I am enlightened.

Would it require that I believe in enlightenment/ I don't think Neo every bought the whole chosen one thing until the very end, if then.

I think you would have to pass through the "I am going mad" phase a lot more than 1 time. If I see some guy flying through the sky like superman, I would by the whole enlightment claim.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity



It's clear you don't know as much as you say you do.

edit on 13-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Do you know where this statement came from? Are you insinuating that you know things I don't? I've never claimed to be enlightened, I'm just offering my opinions like everyone else including you, if you think my opinions are wrong you need to look deeper inside yourself for your ego, he still in there taking the wheel on you!

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Mystical derealization isn't an easy thing to go through. It can drive you mad. If you haven't passed through the 'I must be going mad' phase, if you haven't popped like Neo, and made it through in one piece, then you aren't enlightened.

Hmm, then maybe I am enlightened.

Would it require that I believe in enlightenment/ I don't think Neo every bought the whole chosen one thing until the very end, if then.

I think you would have to pass through the "I am going mad" phase a lot more than 1 time. If I see some guy flying through the sky like superman, I would by the whole enlightment claim.

Will this do for now? I don't know the whole story behind this boy but apparently he burned his clothes off then sat in his burning clothes unscathed!

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by 1nf1del

Enlightenment is also seeing the light and trying to lead others who don't see it towards it, there is constructive criticism and there is insulting, you are skating a fine line between the two, you shouldn't hit the puppy or scold him, try to make him understand!

Yes I am skating a fine line. I'm aiming for the same line LesMis is skating. After all we are a lot alike. He can take it.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by 1nf1del

Enlightenment is also seeing the light and trying to lead others who don't see it towards it, there is constructive criticism and there is insulting, you are skating a fine line between the two, you shouldn't hit the puppy or scold him, try to make him understand!

Yes I am skating a fine line. I'm aiming for the same line LesMis is skating. He can take it.

I see now!

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Not alot to say about the post itself, except that I agree. I just had to tell you that your avatar makes it really hard to concentrate, with the eye-blinking and such... lol. Thought I was going crazy for a moment.

reply to post by AllIsOne


The 8 fold path is not an exact formula.

There are an infinite number of ways to follow the right path, and all of them are difficult roads to follow.

reply to post by 1nf1del


No, that video would definately not convince me.

Just the opposite.

Going back to the OP's original reference to the "vanity of enlightenment" in the context of Buddhism, it can be said that realizing shunyata, although a very pervasive and important mental change, does not immediately wipe out all defilements.

After realizing shunyata it could be that a newly enlightened person continues to manifest defiled characteristics, like vanity. Bad habits are hard to change. Ideally, the newly enlightened will be eager to move to more pervasive manifestations of enlightenment that we are accustomed to associate with the genuinely holy personalities.

Technically, one could be "enlightened" and acknowledged as such by the experts, and still be something of a problem child.

In Buddhism one is expected to attend to such matters and not to dally in personal indulgence and personal narcissism.

enlightenment cannot be discussed/described to any other. any claims or reference to it is all within the mind. it is beyond the world and its creator, beyond consciousness and its witness, beyond assertions and denials, beyond pain and pleasure.

and thou art that!

Originally posted by orangutang
enlightenment cannot be discussed/described to any other. any claims or reference to it is all within the mind. it is beyond the world and its creator, beyond consciousness and its witness, beyond assertions and denials, beyond pain and pleasure.

and thou art that!

This is all quite true. All the writings and explanations in the Buddhist literature and all of the spoken instructions of gurus are a pointing to enlightenment. They are not the thing itself.

reply to post by ipsedixit

In Buddhism one is expected to attend to such matters and not to dally in personal indulgence and personal narcissism.

I suscribe to the idea that the spiritual journey is also a physical journey. There is nothing wrong with some personal indulgence or even narcissism, as long as you don't become fixated on such things. Knowing yourself is an absolute necessity to developing a higher understanding of the world, In My Experience.

reply to post by poet1b

Even becoming fixated on such things is one part of one variation of the journey. No matter how hard you try you won't be able to remain fixated forever!

Thus we reinforce that anytime an explanation of the understanding reached is attempted in words or other medium... it immediately destroys it and is emphatically NOT it.

The divide is between those who understand this intuitively and in all circumstances... and those who still try to walk on the map instead of the terrain.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

In Buddhism one is expected to attend to such matters and not to dally in personal indulgence and personal narcissism.

I suscribe to the idea that the spiritual journey is also a physical journey. There is nothing wrong with some personal indulgence or even narcissism, as long as you don't become fixated on such things. Knowing yourself is an absolute necessity to developing a higher understanding of the world, In My Experience.

I agree with you in general terms. However, in Buddhism there are specific goals that can be defined in specific technical terms.

You refer to "knowing yourself", which is absolutely necessary for the development of understanding of the world in the ordinary way an intelligent person would wish to know it, but in Buddhism "knowing yourself" is irrelevant.

The reason for that is that in the context of a comprehensive examination of the "dependant origination" of all mental phenomena one is led to the realization that there is no self.

One might learn about "one's self" in the process of seeking Buddhist enlightenment, but it would be in the nature of collateral understanding, not the real object of the process.

Seeking Buddhist "enlightenment" is not for everybody. It is not child's play or a hobby.

In the Buddha's words, if memory serves, it is "for heroic spirits intended".

reply to post by ipsedixit


Which is why I seek "casual enlightenment", something that comes in increments and helps me live my life more peacefully. I live beside it, not around it or through it. Should I choose to practice it, I practice it. Should I choose to set it aside and be more indulgent, I do so.

I don't do it to change my life, I do it to grease the wheels. I know I'm not ready for the whole bottle, so I settle for shots. Take one or two every once in a while, an hour of silent contemplation in a place with no distractions, and I probe my subconscious for the answers I want. And usually, I get some good ones. That's how I've arrived at all my conclusions thus far.

It's not a serious relationship, it's friends with benefits.