The Vanity of Enlightenment

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


I think one of the most important things in life is to learn to admit when you are wrong.

For logic to work, it must be combined with reason.

When you reason change then so must your logic. Hopefully to a better matrix.

Reason is based in perspective, which is unique for everyone. As our perspective grows often our reasoning changes, and so our logic as well.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I'd like to point out that one of the points LesMisanthrope pointed out, that I agree with, is one symptom of vanity in the quest for enlightenment: believing that you know for a fact how to find enlightenment.

Do you not see yourself doing exactly what you accuse others of doing?

By saying you know for a fact there isn't ultimately one way you are claiming the same authority. You don't actually know there isn't a group of people who have truly hit on the "final answer" and just aren't revealing it except in a variety of distorted ways which are ultimately destined to fail to reach the "real" end thus giving the illusion of multiple (or no) ways.

That's just your subjective opinion based on your personally accepted reasons. No different than those who claim "this is the way". Since you haven't done it or succeeded their way... and thus by necessity haven't experienced what they did (by nature of you not agreeing with their conclusion)... you don't know that they didn't experience something far beyond anything you've ever conceived of and impossible to communicate to you until you do it "their way".

Naturally I don't subscribe to the belief there is "one way", but I'm not going to then become that which says absolutely there *isn't* one way. We have to be careful to notice in ourselves that which we accuse others of.

I don't know if there are... multiple ways... one way... or NO ways... so I just take whatever steps are available to me each day.

reply to post by poet1b

For logic to work, it must be combined with reason.

Then surely you must admit there is no exact formula for any kind of enlightenment, correct? The word itself is a whimsical label for being at peace within oneself. Considering the diversity of character in this world, any precision in describing the process of reaching enlightenment is laughable.

I described my personal definition and my personal process. I offered it for any and all to use. But I did not say it was the best or most certain method. Because my logic and reason tells me that it is by no means definite. Open your eyes and see this. It is an ephemeral concept which only serves as an example for something you must seek within yourself. That's as simple as I can put it.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by InTheLight

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by InTheLight

What does enlightenment mean to you; isn't it all perspective.

It is a shift in perspective. It is seeing from a different place.

Yes, that explains it well for me. Seeing, understanding, perceiving on an individual basis from a different place; using different senses.

Coming to the senses - which can only happen presently. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling. Being completely here and now.

Being aware of what is arising presently including thought and all sensation and just seeing it all just happen.
Be the witness.

This is a remarkable talk by Alan Watts on 'Being completely here and now'
youtu.be...

The video was interesting, thanks for posting it.

Within the silence of my mind comes, if I allow it, the pearls of realizations of many things.

It is difficult to express in words where my meditative states have taken me both spiritually and mentally using this process, but there is no vanity involved, rather it seems to be a calling, a necessity, a natural thing for me to do.

For those here that fear entering the darkness to find the light (the beams) and choose to insult and demean others to build up their vanity, remember what Jesus said:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

As mentioned earlier, it is possible to go even further than this, though few do. There are some who aspire to reach the source of the mind and find the switch that turns it on and off. This is the switch of true inner freedom. When they succeed, they realize the secret that many have sought down the ages. They find the silence beyond thoughts, the real freedom.

www.successconsciousness.com...

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion

Do you not see yourself doing exactly what you accuse others of doing?

By saying you know for a fact there isn't ultimately one way you are claiming the same authority. You don't actually know there isn't a group of people who have truly hit on the "final answer" and just aren't revealing it except in a variety of distorted ways which are ultimately destined to fail to reach the "real" end thus giving the illusion of multiple (or no) ways.

I have made it perfectly clear that my "formula" and personal "definition" is a personal process that may or may not work for others, and a meaning that may not hold true for everyone but holds true for me. Enlightenment is a personal relationship with reality, much the same as a Christian's relationship with Jesus. For myself, anyway. That's all I have to say to that.

You don't actually know that the CIA has a division specifically designated for the maintenance and secrecy of the last surviving unicorn, which they are keeping alive using a concoction primarily composed of Elixir of Life and Cream of Wheat and have been interrogating for the answer to the significance of the double rainbow

"WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?!"

"NEEEHH-EHHH-EHHH!!!!"



"You don't know" is not a valid argument. I have stated that there is a high degree of uncertainty in the matter. If you can't prove there IS ultimately one way, then it is logical to assume there isn't. There's a Hindu proverb, actually.

"There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesnt matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain,
telling everyone else that their path is wrong."

There's no reason to say any one path is best. The only waste of time is saying that any one path is wrong. That is the miracle of free will. That is what my quest has taught me. You may disagree, but then you'd be wasting your time.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You don't appear to understand what is being communicated to you... but that's ok... it's not important right now.

Thanks for the discussions.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


If I don't appear to understand, that may be more to do with your communicative skills. Which isn't a bad thing. Just be a little more clearer with what you're trying to say.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Interesting and informative reply.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Precisely, there is no exact Formula for enlightenment.

But that goes along with my whole belief that there is no such thing as enlightenment, or enlightened individuals.

I think there are moments of enlightenment, that we all experience, but no moment when one suddenly knows all the answers, and is the embodiment of god or some such thing.

I think I get what you are saying, and I don't think your beliefs require an attainment of enlightenment. It seems we agree on most other points.

I think if you broaden your perspectives, recognize that which you do not know, keep an open mind, apply your senses, including your sense of desire, apply logic and reason and probability, you can be a visionary, wise, able to see around corners and predict the future on a fairly accurate basis, but that doesn't make you some kind of guru.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Precisely, there is no exact Formula for enlightenment.

But that goes along with my whole belief that there is no such thing as enlightenment, or enlightened individuals.

I think there are moments of enlightenment, that we all experience, but no moment when one suddenly knows all the answers, and is the embodiment of god or some such thing.

I think I get what you are saying, and I don't think your beliefs require an attainment of enlightenment. It seems we agree on most other points.

I think if you broaden your perspectives, recognize that which you do not know, keep an open mind, apply your senses, including your sense of desire, apply logic and reason and probability, you can be a visionary, wise, able to see around corners and predict the future on a fairly accurate basis, but that doesn't make you some kind of guru.

As I have already said, no there is no enlightenment only the path TO enlightenment, to be completely enlightened would mean to be not human and in the spiritual world, since none of us has reached that place there is no such thing as a spiritually enlightened human!

Originally posted by InTheLight

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by InTheLight

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by InTheLight

What does enlightenment mean to you; isn't it all perspective.

It is a shift in perspective. It is seeing from a different place.

Yes, that explains it well for me. Seeing, understanding, perceiving on an individual basis from a different place; using different senses.

Coming to the senses - which can only happen presently. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling. Being completely here and now.

Being aware of what is arising presently including thought and all sensation and just seeing it all just happen.
Be the witness.

This is a remarkable talk by Alan Watts on 'Being completely here and now'
youtu.be...

The video was interesting, thanks for posting it.

Within the silence of my mind comes, if I allow it, the pearls of realizations of many things.

It is difficult to express in words where my meditative states have taken me both spiritually and mentally using this process, but there is no vanity involved, rather it seems to be a calling, a necessity, a natural thing for me to do.

For those here that fear entering the darkness to find the light (the beams) and choose to insult and demean others to build up their vanity, remember what Jesus said:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

As mentioned earlier, it is possible to go even further than this, though few do. There are some who aspire to reach the source of the mind and find the switch that turns it on and off. This is the switch of true inner freedom. When they succeed, they realize the secret that many have sought down the ages. They find the silence beyond thoughts, the real freedom.

www.successconsciousness.com...

Here's a nice snippet from messages from the masters for you to peruse. Enjoy.

www.messagefrommasters.com...

reply to post by poet1b


"Guru" just means others have come to respect you for what you have to offer. It generally means that other people think it's working for you, instead of just you thinking it's working for you. That's not the literal meaning, but that's what it has come to be used as, it seems.

I don't claim to be a guru. I think of myself as visionary, but that doesn't make me special. That just means I'm willing to ask questions and seek answers other people are afraid of. At least, that's the kind of visionary I strike myself as when I think about it.

Again, each quest is our own.

reply to post by Shema

Heard. Danke.

Originally posted by 1nf1del

As I have already said, no there is no enlightenment only the path TO enlightenment, to be completely enlightened would mean to be not human and in the spiritual world, since none of us has reached that place there is no such thing as a spiritually enlightened human!

Again The Matrix is an apt metaphor. To be enlightened is to reach that ineffable "place" outside of everything and come back again with a higher order of knowledge. That's not to say with 'all the answers'. Thomas Anderson didn't have 'all the answers' when he became The One. But he was privy to a higher order of knowledge that coppertops just didn't have access to. Because he was there.

That's enlightenment.

reply to post by BlueMule


What's a higher order of knowledge? Isn't that kind of subjective, unless that knowledge is all encompassing? In which case, unless you prove it, that's called insane.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by BlueMule

 

What's a higher order of knowledge? Isn't that kind of subjective, unless that knowledge is all encompassing? In which case, unless you prove it, that's called insane.

Well just imagine how Neo would have seemed if he had started running around the Matrix yelling about how everyone is a battery.

Neo puked, remember.

Mystical derealization isn't an easy thing to go through. It can drive you mad. If you haven't passed through the 'I must be going mad' phase, if you haven't popped like Neo, and made it through in one piece, then you aren't enlightened.

reply to post by BlueMule


That doesn't mean you didn't take a wrong turn somewhere along the way. Which means that you might be mad, after all.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Maybe. Except I can function in society. I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else. Do I sound mad?

reply to post by BlueMule

That's enlightenment.

I agree that the Matrix is an apt metaphor for enlightenment, insofar as it is complete fiction that some find romantic and appealing enough to pursue. There also happen to be people who still think they are Jedi Knights because hey—let's face it— Jedi's are cool.

I hate to say it, but Agent Smith was the only honest philosophy in the Matrix. The movie was steeped in human self-importance and religious undertones, all of which are refuted by Agent Smith, although in an overly pessimistic way (to make him seem evil of course). Neo's only answer to all the truth thrown in his face after 3 entire movies?

"Choice!'"

Sure, whatever you say Neo.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by BlueMule

 

That's enlightenment.

I agree that the Matrix is an apt metaphor for enlightenment, insofar as it is complete fiction that some find romantic and appealing enough to pursue.

To say that is to fail to decode the metaphor. To say that is to fail to see the monomyth skeletal structure of movies like The Matrix.

You failed to become enlightened. You failed to shame people with accusations of vanity. And you failed to penetrate the monomyth metaphor.

Aren't you getting tired of failure?