Pope 112 and the Reason for Corruption of the Chruch

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

 

The Hebrew Mathew confirms what I am saying. It's the best source.

You mean, Jesus building his church on Peter? What if the Vatican has merely usurped Peter's name and mission, and they are not The Church that Jesus was talking about, and thus Hell and its minions have taken it over? "The Church" as used by Christ refers to those who follow Christ. Catholics worship the Virgin Mary and St. Peter (hence all the big "M"'s and upside-down crosses everywhere). They only pay lip service to Christ, in an attempt to mislead Christians; they cannot be "His" church, they're based on blasphemies. The real true Church isn't any man-made organization; it's the body of true believers, and Hell definitely has not prevailed against it. Nor will it. Ever.

Negative, the Catholic Church, has never, nor does it now, worship Mary. She is venerated NOT worshiped, HUGE difference. And I assure you, we are HIS church. Everything a Catholic does is scriptural.

Deny ignorance? ATSers, please do some research to confirm your facts. The ignorance of Catholicism on this board is astounding.

Originally posted by IsidoreOfSeville

 

I assure you, we are HIS church. Everything a Catholic does is scriptural.

Oh?

Confession - The concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. Catholics base their practice of confession on John 20:23: “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." However, that verse doesn't mention confession of sin; it's about people forgiving each other's sins. It also doesn't even hint that the authority to forgive sins would be passed on to the successors of the apostles; it was specifically directed to the apostles alone. Furthermore, the New Testament never states that the apostles would even have successors to their authority. Catholics also use Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 (binding and loosing) as evidence for a priest’s authority to forgive sins, but those also were meant only for his apostles. Now, if you want to make the case that priests are reincarnated apostles, go right ahead, but there were only 12 of them. Erm... 11. Confess your sins to God, not any man. Otherwise you've accomplished nothing.

Purgatory - Jesus Christ is our "purgatory." He washes away all our sins; there is no need for a "place of purification" to make us worthy to enter heaven. His gift of grace makes us worthy. No Christian should even try arguing against that.

Venial vs. Mortal Sins - Catholics believe, as one example, that stealing a low-value item is somehow not as bad as stealing something very valuable. They think telling a small white lie isn't as bad as a big lie. I defy you to show any scripture supporting that.

Priests & Popes - Matthew 23:9 - "call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." The word Pope comes from the word "Papa," meaning "Father." Calling any man "Holy Father" is sacrilegious blasphemy.

What Catholicism has done is to take the concept of Jesus Christ and then tack on hundreds of laws and regulations that were invented by men in an attempt to interpret scripture and control people and get their money. Salvation requires exactly one thing: accepting Christ as your lord and savior. He "gave up the ghost" specifically so your sins could be forgiven, and so you could gain eternal life through his grace. You don't need to do anything else. Yes, Catholics are Christians, but they're Christians in man-made bondage. In brief... run away from Catholicism. Fast. You do not need it. It is the ignorance that should be denied.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Confession - The concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. Catholics base their practice of confession on John 20:23: “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." However, that verse doesn't mention confession of sin; it's about people forgiving each other's sins. It also doesn't even hint that the authority to forgive sins would be passed on to the successors of the apostles; it was specifically directed to the apostles alone. Furthermore, the New Testament never states that the apostles would even have successors to their authority. Catholics also use Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 (binding and loosing) as evidence for a priest’s authority to forgive sins, but those also were meant only for his apostles. Now, if you want to make the case that priests are reincarnated apostles, go right ahead, but there were only 12 of them. Erm... 11. Confess your sins to God, not any man. Otherwise you've accomplished nothing.

Oh? Below you'll find clear biblical references regarding the Apostle's authority to forgive sins:

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Venial vs. Mortal Sins - Catholics believe, as one example, that stealing a low-value item is somehow not as bad as stealing something very valuable. They think telling a small white lie isn't as bad as a big lie. I defy you to show any scripture supporting that.

1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness.

Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved).

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Purgatory - Jesus Christ is our "purgatory." He washes away all our sins; there is no need for a "place of purification" to make us worthy to enter heaven. His gift of grace makes us worthy. No Christian should even try arguing against that

Challenge accepted...

1 Corinthians 3:12-17

King James Version (KJV)

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I'd like to stress though, that if you make it to Purgatory, CONGRATULATIONS! You've made it!

One also has to understand that salvation is a journey. One simple prayer does not assure your salvation.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Priests & Popes - Matthew 23:9 - "call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." The word Pope comes from the word "Papa," meaning "Father." Calling any man "Holy Father" is sacrilegious blasphemy.

Call no man father? What about these?:

Matt. 3:9; Luke 3:8 - Jesus refers to Abraham as our "father."

Mark 11:10 - the people cried out blessed is the kingdom of our "father" David that is coming!

Luke 1:32 - God's angel says Jesus will be great and be given the throne of his "father" David.

Luke 1:55 - Mary says that He spoke to our "fathers," to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.

Luke 1:73 - Zechariah says the oath which he swore to our "father" Abraham.

Luke 16:24,30 - Jesus, in His parable about the rich man, says our "father" Abraham.

John 4:12 - the Samaritan woman asks Jesus if He is greater than our "father" Jacob.

John 7:22 - Jesus refers to the "fathers" who gave the Jews the practice of circumcision.

John 8:56 - Jesus tells the Jews your "Father" Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day.

Acts 3:13,25; 5:30 - Peter teaches that the God of our "fathers" glorified His servant Jesus and raised Him to life.

Acts 4:25 - Peter and John pray to God and refer to our "father" David.

Acts 7:11-12, 15,19,38,44-45,51-52 - Stephen refers to our "fathers" in the faith.

Acts 7:32 - Stephen calls God the God of our "fathers."

Acts 13:17,32,36; 24:14; 26:6; 28:17,25 - Paul also refers to the God of our "fathers" in the faith.

Acts 22:3 - Paul says he was educated according to the strict law of our "fathers."

Acts 22:14 - Ananias says the God of our "fathers."

Rom. 4:1 - Paul calls Abraham our "forefather."

Rom. 4:16-17 - Paul says that Abraham is the "father" of us all and the "father" of many nations.

Rom. 9:10 - Paul calls Isaac, a spiritual leader, our "forefather."

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul says that our "fathers" were all under the cloud, referring to the Old Testament spiritual leaders.

Gal. 1:14 - Paul says that he was zealous for the tradition of his "fathers."

2 Tim. 1:3 - Paul thanks God whom he serves with a clear conscience as did his "fathers" in faith.

Heb. 1:1 - the author says God spoke of old to our "fathers."

Heb. 3:9 - the Holy Spirit says that your "fathers" put me to the test.

Heb. 8:9 - God says not like the covenant that I made with their "fathers."

James 2:21 - James says was not our "father" Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac?

1 Peter 1:18 - Peter says you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your "fathers."

2 Peter 3:4 - Peter says ever since the "fathers" fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning.

Church elders are called "Fathers":

Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the "Father." We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

1 Cor. 4:17 - Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful "child" in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 - Paul describes his role as parent over his "children" the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father."

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders' ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 - Paul calls Timothy his true "child" in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 - Paul calls Titus his true "child" in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.

Also:

Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly "fathers." But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his "son."

1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church "fathers."

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church "children."

1 Macc. 2:65 - Mattathias the priest tells his sons that Simeon will be their "father."

More here...

The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins:

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.

Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville
I'll repeat: Faith in Christ, belief in his sacrifice, is the only thing required to earn you salvation.

John 1:12 - "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

John 3:36 - "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."

John 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Titus 3:4-7 - "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

1 John 5:11-13 - "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

How much scripture does it take to convince you that there's no need for the sacraments, no need for confessionals, no need for Popes or priests or chastity or eucharists or penance or purgatory or anything other than belief that Christ is the Son of God, sent to atone for our sinfulness? Not even baptism is required. It's nice to do, but it's not a necessity. Any religion that tells you otherwise is lying to you.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
What Catholicism has done is to take the concept of Jesus Christ and then tack on hundreds of laws and regulations that were invented by men in an attempt to interpret scripture and control people and get their money. Salvation requires exactly one thing: accepting Christ as your lord and savior. He "gave up the ghost" specifically so your sins could be forgiven, and so you could gain eternal life through his grace. You don't need to do anything else. Yes, Catholics are Christians, but they're Christians in man-made bondage. In brief... run away from Catholicism. Fast. You do not need it. It is the ignorance that should be denied.

As I've said, it takes more than one prayer to be saved... More about salvation

But I am glad you specifically said Catholics are Christians, there are some that think otherwise.

I also encourage you to check out:



God bless you.

reply to post by Thought Provoker


Okay, you posted that as I was putting mine together.

No need for Sacraments? I'll reply tomorrow as I have to head out. But I shall return!

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
How much scripture does it take to convince you that there's no need for the sacraments, no need for confessionals, no need for Popes or priests or chastity or eucharists or penance or purgatory or anything other than belief that Christ is the Son of God, sent to atone for our sinfulness? Not even baptism is required.

No, baptism isn't required. Even the Catholic Catechism says so.

But "there is no need" is a misnomer. The sacraments aren't so much about salvation as they're about living. I don't go to confession because I think that I'll rot in Hell is I don't -- I go because it helps me to identify things that are problems in my life, and by identifying them and doing penance for them, it helps me to avoid such behaviour in the future.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. (James 5:16 NIV)

That's exactly what happens in the sacrament of Confession, and if you've never experienced it, I'd say that you should give it some thought. It's one thing to admit your failings to yourself, quite another to admit them to someone else, particularly when that someone else cares about you, will advise you, and will pray for you.

As for the Eucharist, the earliest records indicate that the church has always believed in the real presence of Christ at Communion. Even Luther believed that (he just wasn't on board with transubstantiation, he believed in consubstantiation, but still held that Christ was present in the Eucharist.) It was only in later Protestant churches that Communion completely lost its relevance, which it has done in your church if you are taught that Communion is just some sort of memorial service.

No, there is "no need" for any sort of personal introspection or improvement, if one is a follower of the "saved once, saved always" Reformed theology mindset, but that path is riddled with all sorts of logical problems, and I'd hate to hang my hat on it. While Luther had legitimate beefs with the church in 1510AD, and there are still valid complaints to this day, nothing that arose from the Reformation, or its subsequent 500 years of diversity, has brought Christianity closer to the "true church" state that it was in following its foundation by the Apostles, and that church, today, remains the Roman Catholic Church.

Originally posted by IsidoreOfSeville

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Priests & Popes - Matthew 23:9 - "call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." The word Pope comes from the word "Papa," meaning "Father." Calling any man "Holy Father" is sacrilegious blasphemy.

Call no man father?  What about these?:

Matt. 3:9; Luke 3:8 - Jesus refers to Abraham as our "father."
Mark 11:10 - the people cried out blessed is the kingdom of our "father" David that is coming!
Luke 1:32 - God's angel says Jesus will be great and be given the throne of his "father" David.
Luke 1:55 - Mary says that He spoke to our "fathers," to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.
Luke 1:73 - Zechariah says the oath which he swore to our "father" Abraham.
Luke 16:24,30 - Jesus, in His parable about the rich man, says our "father" Abraham.
John 4:12 - the Samaritan woman asks Jesus if He is greater than our "father" Jacob.
John 7:22 - Jesus refers to the "fathers" who gave the Jews the practice of circumcision.
John 8:56 - Jesus tells the Jews your "Father" Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day.
Acts 3:13,25; 5:30 - Peter teaches that the God of our "fathers" glorified His servant Jesus and raised Him to life.
Acts 4:25 - Peter and John pray to God and refer to our "father" David.
Acts 7:11-12, 15,19,38,44-45,51-52 - Stephen refers to our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 7:32 - Stephen calls God the God of our "fathers."
Acts 13:17,32,36; 24:14; 26:6; 28:17,25 - Paul also refers to the God of our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 22:3 - Paul says he was educated according to the strict law of our "fathers."
Acts 22:14 - Ananias says the God of our "fathers."
Rom. 4:1 - Paul calls Abraham our "forefather."
Rom. 4:16-17 - Paul says that Abraham is the "father" of us all and the "father" of many nations.
Rom. 9:10 - Paul calls Isaac, a spiritual leader, our "forefather."
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul says that our "fathers" were all under the cloud, referring to the Old Testament spiritual leaders.
Gal. 1:14 - Paul says that he was zealous for the tradition of his "fathers."
2 Tim. 1:3 - Paul thanks God whom he serves with a clear conscience as did his "fathers" in faith.
Heb. 1:1 - the author says God spoke of old to our "fathers."
Heb. 3:9 - the Holy Spirit says that your "fathers" put me to the test.
Heb. 8:9 - God says not like the covenant that I made with their "fathers."
James 2:21 - James says was not our "father" Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac?
1 Peter 1:18 - Peter says you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your "fathers."
2 Peter 3:4 - Peter says ever since the "fathers" fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning.

Whilst I too believe that there is enough scripture, as quoted above, to show that Jesus' command to call "no man father" is often taken out of context by non-Catholics, I just have to ask....

If the term father can be used WHY a Catholic would call their pope "Holy Father" when they make and profess the following statements 

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).

Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: "For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."

"All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV

"The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary." Pope Pius IX

If you want to argue that the term "father" can be used in reference to an elder who is our 'spiritual father on earth' or who is a "father in the gospel",  then why would any Catholic forget scripture below and not discern spirits?

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

 "I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father." John 8:33

" You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." John 8:41

 "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?" Acts 13:10

It's as if Catholics have abandoned any sense of spiritual discernment and as such, still call a man who states the blasphemies above their "holy father". Please tell me, what is HOLY about a man who exalts Mary to co-redemption, co-Mediatrix and the source of salvation? Nothing. In what capacity can such a man be, in any sense, your spiritual father in Jesus here on earth? None. No man of God would EVER state these blasphemies, and therefore Catholics agreeing to call them  "Holy Father" aren't even hearing nor obeying the words in all your quoted scripture above in support of the justification to call a man here on earth "father". Those passages which you quote in support of using the term "father" are completely ignored when it comes to discerning the difference between one who upholds the gospel as given to us and one who distorts and twists the gospel to support Satan. Calling those Popes "Holy Father" is tantamount to calling the twister of scripture your "spiritual father". Catholics are so trained by the RCC to defend against the worship of Mary and calling their pope "Holy Father" with a litany of scripture as proof, then don't stop to do what the gospel COMMANDS US TO DO - TEST ALL SPIRITS TO SEE IF THEY ARE OF OUR GOD. If you insist on calling those popes cited above "holy father", you have neither tested what they said against scripture nor discerned that their spirits are not of Our God. In which case, are they not your "spiritual father", the lusts and desires of which you agree with?

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville

Everything a Catholic does is scriptural.

The Catholic Church does not fallow scripture. It creates it own scripture.

The Catholic Church: Decretal De Translate; Espiscope. Cap.

The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.

-The Catholic Church: Dignitas and Duties of priest. Vol.12. p27.

God himself is obliged to abid by the judgment of his priests, and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse, or give absolution....
The sentence of the priest preceds, and God subscribes to it.

The Catholic Church: S. C. Mosna "Storia Della Domenica" 1969. pp 366-367.

Not the creator of the universe in Genesis 2:1-3. But the Catholic Church can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days.

　

The Catholic Church: Father Enright. American Sentenial June 1893.

Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of One or the other of these alternatives: Either Protestantism and the keeping of Saturday, or Catholicity and keeping holy of Sunday. Compromis is impossible. Of course the Catholic claims that the change was her act, and the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical power.

reply to post by spy66

The Catholic Church does not fallow scripture. It creates it own scripture.

None of the things that you posted reflect the actual teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, as defined in the Catechism. Stop relying on 19th Century anti-Catholic rhetoric as the basis for your knowledge.

Here is the actual teaching of the church: Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You find something in there that says "the Pope can overturn the precepts of Christ", you let us know, m-kay?

reply to post by adjensen


The Catholic Church preach from the bible to the public, but they fallow a different book them selves.

None of the things that you posted reflect the actual teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, as defined in the Catechism. Stop relying on 19th Century anti-Catholic rhetoric as the basis for your knowledge.

Here is the actual teaching of the church: Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You find something in there that says "the Pope can overturn the precepts of Christ", you let us know, m-kay?

Telling you anynthing wont help, you arent on that page. And basically i dont care.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by adjensen

 

The Catholic Church preach from the bible to the public, but they fallow a different book them selves.

No, they don't -- a Catholic who is in opposition to the Catechism runs the risk of being excommunicated (kicked out of the church) something few other religions practice.

What you are saying is absolutely not true. You must have a different Bible than I do, because in mine, lying about other people is generally frowned upon.

Great question! I'm glad you are engaging in dialogue and not just "Catholic bashing." Thank you.

Mary is a subject that many separated brethren misunderstand. I certainly understand the knee-jerk reaction of statements like those; it makes people think Mary is EQUIVALENT to Jesus. In over simplistic terms, Jesus did all the work, and still does. Mary is our guide. Jesus, like most people, listens to His mother. For example, the wedding at Cana. If not for her little nudge, He would not have turned the water into wine. For clarification, consider this:

The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer" or more literally "she who buys back with [the redeemer]." The prefix "co" comes from the Latin term "cum" which means "with" and not "equal to." Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture.

With Mary's free and active "fiat" to the invitation of the angel Gabriel to become the mother of Jesus, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Lk. 1:38), she uniquely cooperated with the work of redemption by giving the divine Redeemer his body, which was the very instrument of human redemption. "We have been sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb. 10:10), and the body of Jesus Christ is given to him through the free, active, and unique cooperation of the Virgin Mary. By virtue of giving flesh to the "Word made flesh" (Jn. 1:14), who in turn redeems humanity, the Virgin of Nazareth uniquely merits the title Co-redemptrix. In the words of the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, "Of course Mary is the Co-redemptrix - she gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us."

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reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville
You know what's really creepy about the catholic church? They have a camera on john paul's tomb - like they're just waiting for him to arise and catch it on film to show the world.

The vatican is run by the jesuit black pope adolpho nicolas, and satan himself.