Atheist Church opens in London

reply to post by Serdgiam
I'm mostly in agreement. It's fortunate our societies enable such freedoms as we may wish to exploit them, including non-religious assembly wherever there is a demand for it.

reply to post by grainofsand


The freedoms we have attained certainly do allow us to do things. Though, I do not believe those rights are granted by anyone or any document. I feel they are innate, regardless of if they can be taken away. Totally different convo there though!

In the end, an atheist has every right in the world to discuss their belief system (sorry, non-belief system), ESPECIALLY with those who are like-minded.

What I would really like to see is even those who have different opinions on the matter.. putting forth the effort to understand that there is beauty in that diversity. The very fact that the universe can support that wide of an assortment of views on itself (and just on one planet) is pretty darn incredible. We have so much to learn from one another, but instead, most focus on who is "right" and are willing to "win" at absolutely any cost necessary.

Originally posted by Serdgiam
In the end, an atheist has every right in the world to discuss their belief system (sorry, non-belief system), ESPECIALLY with those who are like-minded.

As do any theists.

What I would really like to see is even those who have different opinions on the matter.. putting forth the effort to understand that there is beauty in that diversity. The very fact that the universe can support that wide of an assortment of views on itself (and just on one planet) is pretty darn incredible. We have so much to learn from one another, but instead, most focus on who is "right" and are willing to "win" at absolutely any cost necessary.

With the greatest of respect...what does that mean exactly? And how do you ascribe that to a situation where people who don't believe in any gods hook up and share some socially likeminded time, as in the OP?

Originally posted by grainofsand
With the greatest of respect...what does that mean exactly? And how do you ascribe that to a situation where people who don't believe in any gods hook up and share some socially likeminded time, as in the OP?

When someone sees the world differently than I do, I see an opportunity to learn. I would rather speak with someone who respectfully disagrees with me than become more and more insular with just those who think like me.

I learn the most from those who see things in a different light. So, personally, I pursue such interactions far more than discussions with like-minded individuals (which I actually feel is a misnomer). The trouble is in finding people, regardless of any ideology, that are capable of doing so without it turning into a "I win, you lose" scenario.

In this case, I am not an atheist (and to clarify, I am not a theist either). Though, I would love to go to such a meeting just to learn more about the universe around me. If I didnt speak a word, I would love to just listen. Even then, most would consider me a completely unwelcome guest whether it was a gathering of theists or atheists, especially after attempts of conversion fail.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
Instead of readings from an ancient and vastly incorrect very old book they have guest speakers such as professors and they don't sing hymns but listen to music such as Queen.

These people need to get out a bit. This is what happens in countless village halls up and down the land. Only Townies could invent something that already exists!

Regards

reply to post by Wonders


I don't think you are grasping what proving a negative really means. You can't prove that something that doesn't exist doesn't exist.

Yes a person can be tested negative for breast cancer but breast cancer exists, we know what we are looking for and we know if it is or isn't present.

We can also look for the symptoms of cancer and we could look for the symptoms of a god. We have a vast array of technology to look out into the universe and we have never seen the symptoms of a god, all we have seen we are able to explain and what we can't yet explain we aren't so lazy as to fill in with the god of the gaps. We will eventually find the scientific answers.

Why is it that every religious nut is convinced they have had some magical experience and atheists would turn to god if they had the same experience. What a load of rubbish. The difference with us is when something strange happens to us we look for an explanation, we don't proclaim that god did it.

Regarding NDE's, if there was a god he would be omnipotent and omniscient so if you were near dead he would know you was not going to die and therefore he would not let you into heaven only for you to return to the living. Surely he wouldn't be that stupid. I promise you whatever experiences you have had can be explained now or in the future and there was no god involved. If a doctor told you exactly what happened I doubt you would believe him as you seem convinced by your fantasy.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
reply to post by Wonders

 

I don't think you are grasping what proving a negative really means. You can't prove that something that doesn't exist doesn't exist.

Yes a person can be tested negative for breast cancer but breast cancer exists, we know what we are looking for and we know if it is or isn't present.

We can also look for the symptoms of cancer and we could look for the symptoms of a god. We have a vast array of technology to look out into the universe and we have never seen the symptoms of a god, all we have seen we are able to explain and what we can't yet explain we aren't so lazy as to fill in with the god of the gaps. We will eventually find the scientific answers.

Why is it that every religious nut is convinced they have had some magical experience and atheists would turn to god if they had the same experience. What a load of rubbish. The difference with us is when something strange happens to us we look for an explanation, we don't proclaim that god did it.

Regarding NDE's, if there was a god he would be omnipotent and omniscient so if you were near dead he would know you was not going to die and therefore he would not let you into heaven only for you to return to the living. Surely he wouldn't be that stupid. I promise you whatever experiences you have had can be explained now or in the future and there was no god involved. If a doctor told you exactly what happened I doubt you would believe him as you seem convinced by your fantasy.

You apparently didn't even bother reading my threads.
The fact of the matter is, the point I've made time and time again is that you'll find out for yourself eventually.
The bible says that people like yourself won't be persuaded even if a person rises from the dead.
Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
The bible tells the truth, unlike yourself, "Oh I live on a live and let live basis, but get the bible out of school, it's hindering me and my friend's progression," Riiiiiight.

Originally posted by Wonders
You apparently didn't even bother reading my threads.
The fact of the matter is, the point I've made time and time again is that you'll find out for yourself eventually.
The bible says that people like yourself won't be persuaded even if a person rises from the dead.
Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
The bible tells the truth, unlike yourself, "Oh I live on a live and let live basis, but get the bible out of school, it's hindering me and my friend's progression," Riiiiiight.

Really? Bible quoting to asserts that you are right? Sorry but this don't work for me. I need logical arguments.

reply to post by Wonders


Oh dear, you've resorted to quoting the bible, would it help if I read quotes from a fairytale book too?

I have no intention of reading your threads, I can imagine what they will consist of. Loads of hallucination stories somehow twisted into magical proof of a non existant god.

You also resorted to the "you'll find out when you die" crap. It's that kind of talking that poisons the minds of our children and wrongly instills fear in them at an early age. I won't find out anything when I die because I'll be dead, I will cease to exist. It wasn't an inconvenience to me before I was born and it won't be after I'm gone.

Originally posted by Wonders
So, say there's a class of down syndrome children, teachers try to teach, but some children can't understand while others do, is it the teacher's fault that some of those children don't understand...do you suppose then that the children who don't understand could try a different way of learning that would be better for them, there are, after all, different ways to learn.

People like gaffer want me to believe that my NDE experience was just a hallucination, that's a pathetic tactic, it tells me, "I don't want to believe you, ergo your mind is tricking you." It's really amazing how unscientificly they come to their conclusions. There IS evidence, people just look at it and say, if someone with a white coat and a nice watch doesn't tell me this, then it's not real. Do your own research folks, I can't do your asking and seeking and knocking for you, if you want understanding, you're gonna have to try for it, otherwise get back in line.

Again, it's not about personal beliefs, it's about being able to verify something. You cannot even verify yourself that it wasn't a hallucination. If so, please explain how you positively know this. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't the brain release '___' and other chemicals when it is dying? When the body and brain are shutting down, hallucination makes perfect sense. I have plenty of dreams that seem very real but are indeed hallucinations. Do you expect your body to act perfectly normal when your brain is loosing its blood flow? Death is usually measured by the heart stopping, however your brain can still have minimal function for a little while after "death" of the body. It won't immediately die. It will lose oxygen rich blood and then shut down.

www.livescience.com...

Here's a decent article on it. People are just going with what can be verified, rather than personal interpretations of a near death experience. It's not to discount your experience, it's just about what can be proven in science.

NDEs are very interesting, but really don't have anything to do with atheist meetings though and certainly doesn't debunk them or prove anything. Buddhism is technically an atheist belief system that does believe in life after death and they have meetings.

I think it is a good idea. The minute they start wearing black dresses and molesting children. Thats when we have to get worried. Rabbis biting the foreskin of boys and other spirit in the sky gangs, chop the clits off the girls. The pope an his gang like to abuse boys and girls

Originally posted by sulaw
There is a GOD~ There is no GOD~ There is a GOD~ There is no GOD only science said the atheist~ everyone's responses sounded just like this,

Why would you waste time talking to an Atheist who doesn't believe in anything... Except Science... Which is awesome~ In all respects.

Atheists only believe in nothing? They only believe in science? So I guess Buddhism doesn't exist, huh?

Why does conciousness come with individuality,

Can you prove this?

Why do atoms do what they do, Why does Matter manifest the way it does, Why, why, why.

Why is a completely different question, and it might not always have an answer. But many folks are quick to insert their version of god as the answer. Science can answer a lot of WHYs, however. Why do we have iron in our blood? Because our solar system was created by a supernova that dispersed solid elements all across the area, that eventually clumped together because of gravity and took orbit around the sun. That is not a belief, that is where are studies and experiments have led us.

reply to post by Stormdancer777 We note the rise of the terrorist group al-Yad al-Khadra 'Green Hand' in 1929, eventually exterminated by the British (History of Palestine). The paradox is that who the British exterminated as well as who al-Yad al-Khadra exterminated become sacred to all and therefore taboo to all. (See McKenna, Violence and Difference). This terrorist group seems to have risen in synchrony to anti-religious pogroms, so any time one can happen, its counterpart(s) can grind its gears and start up again.

Originally posted by phyrefly
reply to post by Stormdancer777 We note the rise of the terrorist group al-Yad al-Khadra 'Green Hand' in 1929, eventually exterminated by the British (History of Palestine). The paradox is that who the British exterminated as well as who al-Yad al-Khadra exterminated become sacred to all and therefore taboo to all. (See McKenna, Violence and Difference). This terrorist group seems to have risen in synchrony to anti-religious pogroms, so any time one can happen, its counterpart(s) can grind its gears and start up again.

I'm curious what any of that has to do with a weekly gathering of atheists in modern day London?
An Islamic group who attacked Jews over 80 years ago got killed by British troops? So what?
If you are advertising the benefits to society of peoples minds not being clouded by religious fundamentalism then fair enough, I see that, but otherwise no, I can't see any relevance to the OP in your reply.

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by Wonders
So, say there's a class of down syndrome children, teachers try to teach, but some children can't understand while others do, is it the teacher's fault that some of those children don't understand...do you suppose then that the children who don't understand could try a different way of learning that would be better for them, there are, after all, different ways to learn.

People like gaffer want me to believe that my NDE experience was just a hallucination, that's a pathetic tactic, it tells me, "I don't want to believe you, ergo your mind is tricking you." It's really amazing how unscientificly they come to their conclusions. There IS evidence, people just look at it and say, if someone with a white coat and a nice watch doesn't tell me this, then it's not real. Do your own research folks, I can't do your asking and seeking and knocking for you, if you want understanding, you're gonna have to try for it, otherwise get back in line.

Again, it's not about personal beliefs, it's about being able to verify something. You cannot even verify yourself that it wasn't a hallucination. If so, please explain how you positively know this. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't the brain release '___' and other chemicals when it is dying? When the body and brain are shutting down, hallucination makes perfect sense. I have plenty of dreams that seem very real but are indeed hallucinations. Do you expect your body to act perfectly normal when your brain is loosing its blood flow? Death is usually measured by the heart stopping, however your brain can still have minimal function for a little while after "death" of the body. It won't immediately die. It will lose oxygen rich blood and then shut down.

www.livescience.com...

Here's a decent article on it. People are just going with what can be verified, rather than personal interpretations of a near death experience. It's not to discount your experience, it's just about what can be proven in science.

NDEs are very interesting, but really don't have anything to do with atheist meetings though and certainly doesn't debunk them or prove anything. Buddhism is technically an atheist belief system that does believe in life after death and they have meetings.

Yes it is about personal beliefs, the bible says that if one is wise, they are wise for themselves, and if they scoff, they'll bear it alone. I did talk to the girl's dad (if you even bothered reading my nde story), she told him about what happened to me. I would have got in touch with her and spoken with her about it if she hadn't died years ago. The reason I didn't poke for her story when I spoke to her dad was because I heard that she committed suicide years ago. I intend to ask him for her story the next time I see him. Yes I have read that the brain releases dmt while dying, but Carla, the girl who pulled me out of the water, wasn't having that dmt excuse since she wasn't the one who had water in her stomach and lungs. What you say would make sense to me IF she didn't confront me about seeing me in the sky, only stupid people convince themselves that they are crazy to please strangers who don't care about them. I'm not stupid.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
reply to post by Wonders

 

Oh dear, you've resorted to quoting the bible, would it help if I read quotes from a fairytale book too?

I have no intention of reading your threads, I can imagine what they will consist of. Loads of hallucination stories somehow twisted into magical proof of a non existant god.

You also resorted to the "you'll find out when you die" crap. It's that kind of talking that poisons the minds of our children and wrongly instills fear in them at an early age. I won't find out anything when I die because I'll be dead, I will cease to exist. It wasn't an inconvenience to me before I was born and it won't be after I'm gone.

So, you don't care that you're biased? Gaffer I don't know you and I don't want to know you, I highly doubt anything you say will stand the test of two thousand years, you will NEVER have the kind of impact on me the way the bible does. I said that you'll find out for yourself eventually, you took the word eventually to mean, when you die, but what I meant when I said eventually is that you'll find out eventually, whether or not that happens before you die is up to you, from the looks of it, your interpretation of the word seems more probable.
You seriously need to do some research. But since you indicated that you're fine being willfully ignorant, I don't have much hope for you.

reply to post by Wonders


You don't need to hope for me, I am very happy living my life based on knowledge rather than fairytales.

Greek, Roman and Norse mythology has stood the test of time and so has your Christian mythology but it doesn't make it any truer.

I don't have to look at your details to know where you're from, I can tell by your writing, you're American and I expect your parents to be Christian and they will have indoctrinated you from a young age. I could be wrong but I highly doubt that you're parents are Muslim or Jewish. Religion is passed down through generations pretty much like a genetic trait. Right now there are millions of people just like you who believe their religion is the correct one but you can't all be right, I choose to believe you are all wrong.

I don't need to read your threads, I've read it all before. They go round in circles, offer no hard evidence and are a complete waste of time.

Originally posted by GafferUK1981
reply to post by Wonders

 

You don't need to hope for me, I am very happy living my life based on knowledge rather than fairytales.

Greek, Roman and Norse mythology has stood the test of time and so has your Christian mythology but it doesn't make it any truer.

I don't have to look at your details to know where you're from, I can tell by your writing, you're American and I expect your parents to be Christian and they will have indoctrinated you from a young age. I could be wrong but I highly doubt that you're parents are Muslim or Jewish. Religion is passed down through generations pretty much like a genetic trait. Right now there are millions of people just like you who believe their religion is the correct one but you can't all be right, I choose to believe you are all wrong.

I don't need to read your threads, I've read it all before. They go round in circles, offer no hard evidence and are a complete waste of time.

edit on 15-2-2013 by GafferUK1981 because: (no reason given)

What would you personally consider to be "hard evidence"?
I highly doubt that religion is passed down through generations like a genetic trait, infact I'll go so far as to say that is untrue. I don't consider myself a Christian BECAUSE I've read the bible, I don't align myself to any group.
My trust is in the bible, because it has proven it'self to be true.
My parents didn't indoctrinate me, they didn't sit me down and read the bible to me, I had to do that for myself. Never rely on others to do your learning for you.

Originally posted by Wonders
My parents didn't indoctrinate me, they didn't sit me down and read the bible to me, I had to do that for myself. Never rely on others to do your learning for you.

Yep, same for me, it's why I don't believe in any gods, and look forward to a future atheist debate/discussion/social meeting place opening in my area, I would certainly check it out as a safe place from religious zealots. The social element of religious groups can definitely be beneficial but the belief in gods is not needed, just the shared interests of the group members.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by Wonders
My parents didn't indoctrinate me, they didn't sit me down and read the bible to me, I had to do that for myself. Never rely on others to do your learning for you.

Yep, same for me, it's why I don't believe in any gods, and look forward to a future atheist debate/discussion/social meeting place opening in my area, I would certainly check it out as a safe place from religious zealots. The social element of religious groups can definitely be beneficial but the belief in gods is not needed, just the shared interests of the group members.

Honestly I don't see why you shouldn't start the club yourself, I'd love to hear how it turns out for you.

Emotional abuse is common, no one is immune to it.