Photographic and video proof, and the problems behind them.

In today's day and age, most people won't believe something extraordinary happened without some form of photographic or video proof. I believe the saying is "pics or it didn't happen". As technology advances, so do our expectations of what we receive via photographic and video proof.

There seems to be a problem with this, though. I've begun to notice a trend with those that ask for proof and those that give it. Whenever someone arrives with video or photographic proof that is "inadequate" in some form (grainy, pixellated, compressed, etc.) people automatically get frustrated that the images aren't HD or from Hollywood-esque technology. These people seem to think that everyone can afford HD cameras or carry them around with them 24/7.

That being said, whenever photographic proof arrives that is up-to-par with complete clarity, those that wanted that proof begin to shout "FAKE!" or "PHOTOSHOPPED!". They believe that if the image is in perfect clarity (not grainy, fully visible, etc), whoever came out with this proof hoaxed it using whatever means they have. It's a trend that I have noticed after being on ATS for many years now.

The problem with this, is that no matter what, people aren't going to believe photographic or video proof, no matter how it comes to them. If it isn't 1080 HD quality, it's "useless" and they complain, and when it is they think it's a fake or hoax. There seems to be a very big trend and issue with photographic and video proof when it comes to UFO's and Aliens.

When are we going to stop doubting those that come out with good videos of a UFO? Keep in mind, the term UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object, and until the object in question is identified positively, it IS, by definition, a UFO. When are those who demand 1080 HD quality photographic evidence going to stop thinking everyone out there knows how to photoshop images? When are we going to stop complaining that not everyone has the means for an HD camera or carries them around with them 24/7/365?

Now, don't get me wrong. A majority of videos or photographs out there may just be hoaxes. They may just be jokes by others to see how many they can get to believe them. They may just be from people who are in it for the prospect of money. But there are still some out there that cannot be explained. There's still evidence out there that is of something incredible and not of this world. I believe it's time for us to begin to give the benefit of the doubt towards images until they are proven to be a hoax or photoshopped.

This is the main reason why I am making this thread. To point out the fallacy of evidence when it comes to something as extraordinary as a UFO or Alien. I would like to hear your thoughts on this, ATS. Why do you believe we do this, as humans? Why do we ask for evidence, then shoot it down immediately as a fake or hoax? Why do we demand for HD clarity in evidence, then believe it's fake when we get that evidence?

I think it's because it's just a hard concept to swallow.
Pictures and videos are so easy to fake.
Seeing is believing and with something like this you need to see it in person.
You make a good point though.

Originally posted by GmoS719
I think it's because it's just a hard concept to swallow.
Pictures and videos are so easy to fake.
Seeing is believing and with something like this you need to see it in person.
You make a good point though.

That is very true. Most people don't like to think about the prospect of life from somewhere else visiting us. It is a hard concept to swallow.

Yes, they are in some cases, but in others they aren't. The one thing most people forget is that most people aren't photoshop experts. They don't know how to run it least of all how to create a seamless fake. Heck, I didn't even realize you could paste images in paint and mess with them until a few years ago!

While seeing is believing, sometimes you don't need to see it in person. I know that I didn't need to see the man who made the $75 grand half-court hook shot in person to know it was real. The video of it was all the proof I needed to believe it actually happened.

Originally posted by Dondylion
Why do we ask for evidence, then shoot it down immediately as a fake or hoax? Why do we demand for HD clarity in evidence, then believe it's fake when we get that evidence?

I guess the same could be asked:

Why do people feel compelled to make hoax videos? They are out there, we all know. The world is filled with "Sorcha Faals" that want their 15 minutes of fame....and so many people out there "want" to believe, they clamor for these videos or photos.

Proof will be when a UFO actually lands in a very public place, and is witnessed by hundreds. Hundreds taking video of a same event would be great proof.

Originally posted by Dondylion

Originally posted by GmoS719
I think it's because it's just a hard concept to swallow.
Pictures and videos are so easy to fake.
Seeing is believing and with something like this you need to see it in person.
You make a good point though.

That is very true. Most people don't like to think about the prospect of life from somewhere else visiting us. It is a hard concept to swallow.

Yes, they are in some cases, but in others they aren't. The one thing most people forget is that most people aren't photoshop experts. They don't know how to run it least of all how to create a seamless fake. Heck, I didn't even realize you could paste images in paint and mess with them until a few years ago!

While seeing is believing, sometimes you don't need to see it in person. I know that I didn't need to see the man who made the $75 grand half-court hook shot in person to know it was real. The video of it was all the proof I needed to believe it actually happened.

edit on 2/2/2013 by Dondylion because: typo!

Well the $75 grand shot had thousands of eye witnesses but I can see the resemblance in the situations.
Seeing is believing for me atleast. To each his own.

Originally posted by gavron

Originally posted by Dondylion
Why do we ask for evidence, then shoot it down immediately as a fake or hoax? Why do we demand for HD clarity in evidence, then believe it's fake when we get that evidence?

I guess the same could be asked:

Why do people feel compelled to make hoax videos? They are out there, we all know. The world is filled with "Sorcha Faals" that want their 15 minutes of fame....and so many people out there "want" to believe, they clamor for these videos or photos.

Proof will be when a UFO actually lands in a very public place, and is witnessed by hundreds. Hundreds taking video of a same event would be great proof.

That reminds me of an episode of facted or faked.
Alien video and they went to investigate it and asked the guy straight up.
Did you fake it?
He said. Yes lol

Originally posted by gavron

Originally posted by Dondylion
Why do we ask for evidence, then shoot it down immediately as a fake or hoax? Why do we demand for HD clarity in evidence, then believe it's fake when we get that evidence?

I guess the same could be asked:

Why do people feel compelled to make hoax videos? They are out there, we all know. The world is filled with "Sorcha Faals" that want their 15 minutes of fame....and so many people out there "want" to believe, they clamor for these videos or photos.

I mentioned this in my OP:

They may just be jokes by others to see how many they can get to believe them. They may just be from people who are in it for the prospect of money.

They could also just want to hone their graphics skills by seeing how well they can hoax an image or video of a UFO.

Proof will be when a UFO actually lands in a very public place, and is witnessed by hundreds. Hundreds taking video of a same event would be great proof.

Even then, people will still believe it's fake. These are probably horrible examples, but look at both 9/11 and the recent Sandy Hook catastrophies. With 9/11, there are people out there who believe the planes that hit the TTs were holograms, even with the hundreds of eye witnesses to the event. With Sandy Hook, people out there are saying those kids were never killed, even though there are eye witnesses to that event as well.

ETA: I also wanted to add that if a UFO of extraterrestrial origin were to land in a public place where there were hundreds of people witnessing the event, most would still push it as a hoax by the government/pranksters/film crews/etc.

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by Dondylion

Originally posted by GmoS719
I think it's because it's just a hard concept to swallow.
Pictures and videos are so easy to fake.
Seeing is believing and with something like this you need to see it in person.
You make a good point though.

That is very true. Most people don't like to think about the prospect of life from somewhere else visiting us. It is a hard concept to swallow.

Yes, they are in some cases, but in others they aren't. The one thing most people forget is that most people aren't photoshop experts. They don't know how to run it least of all how to create a seamless fake. Heck, I didn't even realize you could paste images in paint and mess with them until a few years ago!

While seeing is believing, sometimes you don't need to see it in person. I know that I didn't need to see the man who made the $75 grand half-court hook shot in person to know it was real. The video of it was all the proof I needed to believe it actually happened.

edit on 2/2/2013 by Dondylion because: typo!

Well the $75 grand shot had thousands of eye witnesses but I can see the resemblance in the situations.
Seeing is believing for me atleast. To each his own.

Yes, that is very true, but some out there may still believe it's fake, even with the eye witnesses and video evidence. See the issues here? No matter what comes out with something extraordinary (whether it's that shot, a UFO, or even a whale befriending a cat) there will still be people screaming that it's a fake.

reply to post by Dondylion


Well, every time I've taken a picture of something REAL, you can tell what it is in the picture. I'll leave it at that.

reply to post by Dondylion

True, not everyone can afford HD cameras or carries them around 24/7, but considering the large amount of HD recording media that is around today, the relatively small amount of good recordings still doesn't add up.

If the UFO phenomenon was real, there should have been at least one good recording by now... yet, we haven't seen one.

Originally posted by Dondylion
[...] there are still some out there that cannot be explained.

True.

Originally posted by Dondylion
There's still evidence out there that is of something incredible and not of this world.

That's idle speculation. Where is this evidence?

If you want "Ufology" to be taken more serious, you might want to avoid statements like these.

Originally posted by DaTroof
reply to post by Dondylion

 

Well, every time I've taken a picture of something REAL, you can tell what it is in the picture. I'll leave it at that.

Have you taken an image of something moving at high speeds and extremely far away?

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Dondylion

 

True, not everyone can afford HD cameras or carries them around 24/7, but considering the large amount of HD recording media that is around today, the relatively small amount of good recordings still doesn't add up.

If the UFO phenomenon was real, there should have been at least one good recording by now... yet, we haven't seen one.

How do you know we haven't seen one yet? This is the exact kind of behavior I was talking about in my OP. The minute a good recording of a UFO is captured, people automatically assume fake or hoax. BTW, the UFO phenomenon IS real. As I said in my OP, UFO means UNIDENTIFIED Flying Object. Until the object in question is identified, it IS a UFO. The UFO being of extraterrestrial origins is a different matter.

Vast assumption. Where is this evidence?

If you want "Ufology" to be taken more serious, you might want to avoid statements like these.

There has been photographic and video evidence. Whether you believe it to be of extraterrestrial origin is your choice to make, but do not say that UFO's are not real. As I mentioned above, The U of UFO stands for Unidentified. Until identified, it remains a UFO.

Originally posted by Dondylion

Originally posted by DaTroof
reply to post by Dondylion

 

Well, every time I've taken a picture of something REAL, you can tell what it is in the picture. I'll leave it at that.

Have you taken an image of something moving at high speeds and extremely far away?

Yes. The film and hard copies are at my parents' house, but I took pictures of Halley's Comet, several shuttle launches as well as air shows, and really anything that flew. Not exclusively, mind you, but I was fascinated by aviation as a youngster.

Originally posted by DaTroof

Originally posted by Dondylion

Originally posted by DaTroof
reply to post by Dondylion

 

Well, every time I've taken a picture of something REAL, you can tell what it is in the picture. I'll leave it at that.

Have you taken an image of something moving at high speeds and extremely far away?

Yes. The film and hard copies are at my parents' house, but I took pictures of Halley's Comet, several shuttle launches as well as air shows, and really anything that flew. Not exclusively, mind you, but I was fascinated by aviation as a youngster.

Carrying a camera when you expect there to be planes, comets, or shuttle launches and capturing them are vastly different than suddenly seeing something you do not recognize and grabbing whatever is nearest. Remember, not everyone has the means for a $2,000 camera or carries them around with them constantly. Most people only have the small cameras on their mobile devices. Heck, the only reason my family has a digital camera is because my father found it in a puddle while out fishing one morning.

reply to post by Dondylion


I'll give you that. Not all photographers are created equal. I guess what helps reinforce my skepticism is the lack of contact. That, coupled with the theme of strange lights or shapes which once spotted flee quickly. Sorry, but the idea that a UFO can tell when someone sees it is just too goofy, and yet that same theme appears in report after report.

reply to post by Dondylion

Originally posted by Dondylion
The UFO being of extraterrestrial origins is a different matter.

Exactly. That's obviously what I meant with "UFO phenomenon".
Still you jumped to conclusions and said this:

Originally posted by Dondylion
There's still evidence out there that is of something incredible and not of this world.

Again, where is that evidence?

Originally posted by Dondylion
How do you know we haven't seen one yet?

Well, I sure haven't seen one yet.
Please, go ahead and give me your best shot.

Originally posted by DaTroof
reply to post by Dondylion

 

I'll give you that. Not all photographers are created equal. I guess what helps reinforce my skepticism is the lack of contact. That, coupled with the theme of strange lights or shapes which once spotted flee quickly. Sorry, but the idea that a UFO can tell when someone sees it is just too goofy, and yet that same theme appears in report after report.

The problem with the lack of contact and not believing is that it hasn't happened to you. As one poster stated above "seeing is believing". I was a skeptic like you once, but I was one of the lucky ones to have made contact with a UFO of what I believe to be of extraterrestrial origin. Changed my life. There are many stories out there from people who have had contact with UFOs and the like. Yes, some of them may be fake for their "15 minutes of fame" but for every fake, there's one that's true. It's up to you, as a person, to believe whether they are telling the truth about their contact or not.

They may not know they're spotted! Maybe they just saw what they wanted to and left. Maybe they were doing research, or taking a quick look at whats going on, or heck, maybe they have some sort of radar that notifies them that someone in the area is filming them and they leave. If they have the technology to traverse the universe, who's to say they don't have the technology to alert them of someone capturing their existence? Who knows, really?
To add to that, do you believe they'd stick around forever? When you visit some place, do you stay forever or do you leave? What if they're just visiting, like you would to the grand canyon? There are so many possible explanations to their activity that we can speculate on, but we will never know the real answer to those questions.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Dondylion

 

Originally posted by Dondylion
The UFO being of extraterrestrial origins is a different matter.

Exactly. That's obviously what I meant with "UFO phenomenon".
Still you jumped to conclusions and said this:

Originally posted by Dondylion
There's still evidence out there that is of something incredible and not of this world.

Again, where is that evidence?

Originally posted by Dondylion
How do you know we haven't seen one yet?

Well, I sure haven't seen one yet.
Please, go ahead and give me your best shot.

edit on 3-2-2013 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)

I have not jumped to conclusions once in this thread, so please do not make assumptions. The evidence is within the interwebz, obviously! Jokes aside, there have been videos posted throughout ATS that show very incredible things that cannot be explained.

I'll start with this video here:
As far as I'm aware, this video has NOT been proven to be of hoax origin, neither have the anomalies in them.

Okay everyone, let's get back on topic here. The topic is talking about why we ask for 1080 HD proof, then shoot it down immediately as fake, not providing proof of UFO's existence. If you guys would like to talk about evidence of UFO's, let's keep it to PM. I made this thread to talk about why we always complain about grainy videos/pictures and dismiss good videos/pictures as fakes and hoaxes.

Thanks and sorry for mini-modding!

Well, as many ATSers know, I'm working on camera-control software dedicated to a certain model of PTZ camera that was expensive when introduced but is now very cheap as used equipment, for a setup of two cameras feeding video to a computer, which checks for anything new in frame that stops and hovers and is not a receding Earth-grazing meteor or a bug near one of the cameras, whereby the computer pans/tilts the cameras only if the object would be out of frame when zoomed, then zooms both cameras and starts recording, with tracking data stamped in a data bar below each frame and hoaxproofing code embedded that can be checked by a separate program only I have. And if a hovering object so captured looks otherworldly, weather and FAA radar will be requested under the Freedom of Information Act, with announcement of the video delayed until such radar confirmation is received and analyzed so an overwhelming case can be made at the time of initial public release. It takes about 1.25 second for zoomed recording to start once an object appears (.25 sec. to recognize hovering and 1 sec. to pan, tilt and fully zoom), capturing even visits too brief to be noticed by human observers.

That should address the issues people have with UFO photos, since this is high-parallax, zoomed 3D video with tracking and antihoaxing data and radar confirmation. It's a complicated project, and I don't have the software finished and tested yet. And it will have to be used by people who live close to UFO hotspots, and I would like for it to be done under MUFON supervision locally to make sure users fully understand how to set it up, etc. For example, the cameras have to be aligned using a bundled alignment program that checks the images of stars from both cameras, even though normal skywatch usage is for daytime only.

My signature links to a thread about it.